I think I've found the key to sex in my mixed marriage, but...

[Sinking_In]

My wife is what I believe to be gray asexual hetero-demiromantic. and I would consider myself moderate to high libido allosexual heteroromantic. Over the years, sex went from weekly (dating), to multiple times a week (married & trying to become pregnant), to monthly-ish (following child birth), to once in a blue moon, but under very specific circumstances, making ours a "dead bedroom" for years, averaging much less than 10x a year for most of our 13 year relationship. We once went 8+ months without sex when I decided to let her choose when to initiate (she never did). Most of the sex in recent years was seemingly obligatory on her part, anyway. It got a whole lot worse before it's gotten any better. Finding this site has helped me, tremendously. My wife and I recently had a really great connection, though, but as many sexuals in these situations can attest to, I found it short lived. In my case, I believe I've finally figured out our romantic relationship cycle: I have to get my wife to fall madly in love with me in order to have sex that is anything less than obligatory. HOWEVER, once we do have such a romantic and sexual connection, her romantic love fades, literally overnight, and the process must start all over, again, but not too soon. Weeks will have to pass before I can make any more romantic efforts. She wants romance, she tells me she wants physical affection, but she wants all contact initiated by me, and I have to know when, with no cues from her. If too soon, it won't be reciprocated. Too often, and it will be rebuffed. If I wait too long, my efforts will have to be doubled. It's an exhausting balance, but I believe I've finally found what to look for, what to do, and though I should be happy... I'm basically looking at living 50 First Dates romantically, while living a Ladyhawke sex life. Under the most ideal conditions, and a lot of work, I believe I can have a sex life anyone in this situation could possibly hope for, the "compromise" if you will, that works for both of us to get what we both crave, but it's entirely on me it seems. It will always be at a lesser frequency than I'd prefer, and it will only go on as long as I'm willing to put in the work. I'm also expecting it to become HARDER as even more time passes though, with the timelines and goalposts being moved farther and farther back, but we'll see how it goes, for now. Maybe this can help others, maybe not, but thought I'd share, anyway.

[Guest]

This sounds like a ridiculous amount of effort for sex. Where is the work she's putting in?

[anisotrophic]

It certainly doesn't sound like good communication, joint effort, and reciprocal empathy.

 

It sounds like you see your partner as some sort of vending machine where you insert enough "nice" tokens (love/ affection/ romance), you expect sex to drop out. (I don't see why one can't simply be romantic and have no sex -- why is there some "reciprocation" required for you to be romantic -- the loving actions don't come off as sincere?)

[SusannaC]

@Sinking_In, sounds like ALOT of work.... Just the idea of going through and being aware of those necessary steps takes the romance out for me!!   Did your wife discuss this process with you and is she on board?  Or is this your idea based on trial and error?    So is this what you want to do for the rest of your life?  Is sex for you so important that you would live this way and would YOU be able to feel romantically towards her long term without the sexual connection?

[Sinking_In]

@anisotrophic

I tend to break things down like a training manual, so I see how it comes across as cold & calculated. You're not wrong about one should feel the desire to be romantic. Bear in mind, it was effortless in the beginning. There is now a LOT of water under the bridge (the bridge has nearly been swept away at times), so just as many asexual people will attest to having to put effort into the act of sex for compromise, given the same circumstances, it doesn't sound unreasonable for a sexual person to have to put effort into the act of romance for compromise. If it sounds to you like I make my partner out to be a vending machine, who  has made it that way, me, or my partner? Truth is, I want the connection all of the time, not just for sex, but for all intimacy, and she wants limited amounts of connection, from strong to weak, to be determined by her.

[Sinking_In]

@KrysLost

The effort she puts in is how she shows her love in every other way which does not include intimacy. I've only just broken down the sexual aspect of our life. It's not a complete story, sorry. I'll need a lot more pages to post that

[Sinking_In]

@SusannaC

It's a lot to consider, yes. Is it worth it? It could be. I've pieced this together from what she's verbalized and from trial and error. If I spelled it out to her like I did above, she'd have the same reaction as @anisotrophic, I'm sure. Who wants to be told it takes effort? The key is making it look effortless, in the hopes that it becomes effortless, again.

[SusannaC]

@Sinking_In I’m not criticizing what you’ve said.  These are my own thoughts as I try to place myself in your shoes.   Not difficult to feel hurt, when your relationship started in a much different way.  I hope the “work” of romance doesn’t wear you down, if you decide to continue.

[Sinking_In]

@SusannaC I didn't take it as criticism, but thank you  Romance used to take very little effort on my part, so I'm hoping I can get back there, again. This sounds bad, but it's actually a helpful little thing I've heard once, "fake it until you make it." Not that I'm "faking" romance with my wife, but it would be more like putting in more effort until it becomes effortless. Obviously it becomes more difficult the more difficult she has made it for me. But that's not to say I haven't been a handful, myself.

[Sally]

1 hour ago, Sinking_In said:

@anisotrophic

I tend to break things down like a training manual, so I see how it comes across as cold & calculated. You're not wrong about one should feel the desire to be romantic. Bear in mind, it was effortless in the beginning. There is now a LOT of water under the bridge (the bridge has nearly been swept away at times), so just as many asexual people will attest to having to put effort into the act of sex for compromise, given the same circumstances, it doesn't sound unreasonable for a sexual person to have to put effort into the act of romance for compromise. If it sounds to you like I make my partner out to be a vending machine, who  has made it that way, me, or my partner? Truth is, I want the connection all of the time, not just for sex, but for all intimacy, and she wants limited amounts of connection, from strong to weak, to be determined by her.

The two of you are mismatched regarding sex and all intimacy.  It isn't the fault of either of you.  When you say "who  has made it that way?", it sounds like you truly are looking at this in a mechanistic way, and she isn't reacting as she's expected to react.  That's just not going to be sustainable for either of you.  It's up to you what you want to do, but it's also up to her what she wants to do, and not do.  Talk with her honestly.  

[Marlow1]

@Sinking_In Thank you for sharing this!!! I am Demisexual and my wife is Allosexual. Following a brain hemorrhage I could not remember her well and I lost my attraction to my wife. It is a long story but like you we found bringing in a lot of romance helped with the healing. The main book we use is called Kosher Sex by Rabbi Shmuley, but we also use Sheila's site from time to time. Sheila helps people who have mismatched sex and intimacy needs. This is one of my favourite pages but there are other pages on her site that might be of use to you

 

https://tolovehonorandvacuum.com/2013/04/50-most-romantic-movies/

[Sinking_In]

@Marlow1

Thank you for the info! I'll check it out!

 

@Sally

Thank you. We just got back from a heart to heart talk, and it went well. We understand each other more, now. We have the same goal, and while some things are fluid, and though we cannot change one another, we can change our expectations. We realize we are fundamentally incompatible in sexual attraction and drive, but we are very similar in terms of romantic needs. It's just that communicating it has been clouded by years of hurt and circumstance. We made a commitment to be open to give and to receive open communication. This should be a better starting point. There is a huge learning curve, and I'll admit I have been behind the curve quite often.

[anisotrophic]

@Sinking_In glad to hear you had a talk; it can indeed be really painful when one partner experiences sexuality/romantic stuff as the same thing, but the other doesn't (and doesn't want the sex much at all, really). But I think it can be a huge game changer to understand that about each other (and this can happen after many years!).

 

In my experience it's best to try to separate the romance from the sex, but it's hard to not want sex when one experiences that as part of experiencing love. So... easier said than done.

[Sinking_In]

 

5 hours ago, anisotrophic said:

So... easier said than done.

Ain't that the truth! We're separating the two, now, sex and affection. We're sharing more intimacy, but at times where sex is not a possibility, so it takes the pressure off of both of us. I have no anticipation of it, and she has no anxiety related to it. She admitted that she was pretty much just having sex for my sake, but when the pressure is off, and all she feels is loved, it makes the difference for her between wanting to do it for me, and feeling obligated to doing it. The former being much more appealing than the latter for both of us. We're both actively seeking a happy median that keeps us both feeling fulfilled, or at the very least not leaving one or both of us feeling neglected. This may take a while, but I'm hopeful we're on the right track, now.

[anamikanon]

@Sinking_InI find your observation of the cyclic nature pretty astute and find it is so in our relationship also. It is interesting to see if you can spot reliable enough patterns to "hack" (for lack of a better term) to make the romantic/sex life work for both of you. As i read your post, my mind was throwing up observations about our relationship too and I'm pretty sure I'll give it some detailed thought for viability.

 

That said, it does sound like a lot of work for something that may not happen or last even if it does. Also concerning is that all the effort appears to be on your end (as it seems to be the situation in my relationship too) and I am not sure a one sided investment of such extreme effort enriches a relationship. To me, it feels a lot like we value them a lot more than they do us, and I then feel inclined to dismiss rather than invest.

 

That said, regardless of momentary feelings of commitment or irritation, my firm belief is that it doesn't matter who covers more distance in order to meet as long as you manage to meet.

 

I am looking forward to your updates and in turn will share back if anything interesting emerges in our relationship from this train of thought.

[anamikanon]

Also, as someone who has helped people with changework overall, I would advise you to have more specific goals than "open communication" - which sounds fantastic, but is actually quite open to interpretation.

 

It is good that you are conversing, and I would recommend that you evolve to specifics like open communication is fine, but this specifically, I would want to know. For example, if you feel willing, I'd really like you making an effort to convey it to me rather than quietly being in a state of "wouldn't mind". Or if you feel overwhelmed by sexual demand, then let me know rather than bearing it in silence. Etc.

 

If you know what communication has failed to happen on time in the past (and then likely resulted in adverse behavior or come out as an avalanche of accusations later) then you can specifically put such communication on the "must tell immediately" list. For eg, if you act sexual and she doesn't like it but doesn't want to hurt you, so pretends it is okay, a few times of this can have her evading your presence altogether. So you make a communication item on your list - if you want to stop, say stop. And commit to counting it as a positive sexual communication - positive, because it asserts her stand and brings her into the arena of having an opinion and stake in what happens, so to say, rather than withdrawing.

[Sinking_In]

@anamikanon I'm more or less feeling my way through a dark maze with electrified walls  I'm happy to share when I get zapped, or when I make it to the next turn.

 

10 minutes ago, anamikanon said:

it does sound like a lot of work for something that may not happen or last

TRUE, however, the truth is, the cycles or patterns are better used to gauge when not to engage. I'm focusing more on the romantic connection, now, because with it will come more physical intimacy, and thankfully, my wife is actually pretty happy to accept my advances when her romantic switchboard is all lit up (and of course when time and location are suitable). I've come to realize it's the journey, not the destination that needs to be the focus. Stay on the journey for the journey's sake, and you'll eventually find yourself at the destination, though you may be very late and visit fairly infrequently. That's the reality, but if you focus on the romance above the sex, it should be more tolerable. I've shared this before somewhere on AVEN, but it's something I keep in mind: love isn't a feeling, it's a choice, and sometimes it's a lot of hard work. So far, the good still outweighs the bad. If it didn't, I wouldn't try so hard.

 

[Sinking_In]

9 hours ago, anamikanon said:

I would advise you to have more specific goals than "open communication"

We do have some specifics, actually. I'm glad you mentioned it. One example is we had agreed we both like affection, but I had to specify genuine affection. This meant that though she wants me to come home from work and give her a kiss, to me, it won't feel genuine unless she acknowledges that in the second or two it takes for a kiss, I am making a genuine effort to connect with her, however small it may be. Half ignoring my effort and staying focused on something else would defeat the purpose. To continue on with that same example and open communication, if she is pulling away, I can remind her that I'm making an effort. In the same respect, she can tell me she recognizes the effort, but she can't do it right now (for whatever the reason may be). Hopefully, this keeps everyone from getting annoyed, while still leaving that action on the table for a more appropriate time. That's just one example, and so far, the kisses have been fine for both of us

[Sinking_In]

10 hours ago, anamikanon said:

make a communication item on your list - if you want to stop, say stop

Trust me, my wife has never had a problem saying "stop" or "no" and making it abundantly clear, but I like how you put emphasis on it being "positive sexual communication", because up until recently, I would have taken it negatively, and she would have withdrawn. We're both on board with what you're saying there.

 

[Sinking_In]

Just an update: the daily affection has continued, and it's (seemingly) going swimmingly for both of us. I'm engaging more than she is (traditional roles?), and she is reciprocating. I have not asked for sex, but she has taken initiative and offered, again, to schedule it in. I know it sounds "transactional", but it is positive, and given the circumstances, I'm good with it right now. I'll take progress, any day. Regardless of how it may appear, we're connecting more on multiple levels, not just physical.

 

In another post (by MiffKeks) I saw a great illustrated example of different attractions. I figured out that my wife and I each have 3 basic attractions, but only 2 overlap: aesthetic and romantic attraction. Where we differ are my sexual attraction and her sensual attraction. This is where we are currently compromising, and so far, so good. Admittedly, though, daily sensual attention strains my desire for sexual attention, taking a minor physical toll which I must remedy, myself, every few days. I won't burden her with it at this time, because I don't want to derail the progress we're making. One thing at a time, one day at a time.

[Sinking_In]

I posted this in another thread I was reading, and thought it also belonged here (for full disclosure), to follow up on today's afternoon delight, and my own doubts that came of it: 

 

I now feel pressure, which is NOT a good thing to feel for either of us, for anyone of any sexuality or orientation. I feel pressure that I must be making HER feel pressure. Sure, she can say it's "fine", maybe even be happy to do it for me, but is it really okay? That is not what sex is supposed to be about. Tension is one thing (which sexuals can get a LOT out of in terms of sex), but not pressure. I'm just having doubts about even the idea of compromise, but I also cannot deny my own sexuality. It builds. It affects my moods, which affects my relationships. If I don't have sex with her, I will have negative emotions, but if I do have sex with her, I won't be feeling very good about it, either. That was at least the case for me today. I don't think she came away from it feeling badly about it, which I'm grateful for, but I shouldn't feel badly about it either, and yet here I am. I admire everyone who is making it work, but I also sympathize with those who struggle. It isn't easy, that's for sure.

[anisotrophic]

My approach has been to say I feel bad and seek out non-sexual reassurance (like hugs) -- and to resist any offer to have sex as a response to me feeling bad about his asexuality.

 

Does that make sense? Eventually we do have sex but I'm pushing back against that happening as the response to me feeling bad.

[Sally]

19 hours ago, Sinking_In said:

. Sure, she can say it's "fine", maybe even be happy to do it for me, but is it really okay? That is not what sex is supposed to be about. T

You have to accept her "fine", because she'd  rather not have sex.  What sex is about is one thing for sexuals.  For asexuals, it  is about doing it for someone they love, not because they want to.  That's the reality of mixed relationships.  

[Sinking_In]

I've updated other threads, so I thought I'd update this one with the short and sweet:

 

We've upped our affection & PDA, which is nice for both of us. Sex, however, is pretty much off the table at this point. Not that we're necessarily adverse to it, it's just simply to remove that stress and anxiety for both of us, and things are calm. I've confirmed that my wife would rather not have sex, but she is demiromantic and craves love and affection. When those are fulfilled, she would occasionally be okay to have sex for my sake. She may even be demisexual with a very sensitive & fickle cycle requiring perfect alignment of many, many factors. For this reason my wife suggested I get a girlfriend to handle all of my sexual needs, but this has not been ironed out or discussed in detail. I can't say I'd want to be dating, per se, anyway. I know it's not ideal for her, either, but if it means we can all be happy and love without stress, and it never comes back to our family in any negative way, she would be fine with it. For this reason, I'm not taking this lightly, nor rushing into anything.

 

Who knows where all of this is going, but this is where we are, now.

 

[Sinking_In]

Talked to my therapist last night (I see him about once or twice every few years), and we discussed all of this. I was surprised at how well versed he was in polyamory. Unfortunately, he isn't very knowledgeable regarding asexuality. He did offer to find referrals, though, and suggested he find us a couples therapist who is versed in polyamory, and I asked he also add they be knowledgeable regarding asexuality. He has a rule to not see couples if he is already seeing one spouse, which I respect and understand. Plus, I think if my wife sees anyone, they need to know where she is coming from regarding asexuality. I'm not sure if she's willing to see a therapist, just yet, but I'd like to know one is available to us, to her, especially if/ when we decide to open up the marriage. One day at a time. The PDA is still in effect, and it still feels good  

[Sinking_In]

Update: I've had my first polyamory experience, and I dare to say it was really good, with the promise of something ongoing. She was aware of my situation beforehand, as was my wife. It has literally been decades since I've been with a lover like this. I didn't realize how much I had missed it to be honest. I mean, I wanted to have it with my wife so badly, but to actually get to experience it again was amazing. That said, I am keenly aware that there is a distinction between my relationships. Of course, people are human, and emotions can happen, but my wife is my north star. We shared so many intimate moments this weekend, and she even wanted to make love (it's all safe-sex from here on out, and under all circumstances), and no, it didn't feel like "hysterical bonding" at all (I had come across that term in my research). It's like we're falling in love all over again. Things have been so positive, and everyone around us is starting to notice. I'm hoping it all continues along this path for quite some time, but time will tell.