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Problem with the Primary vs. secondary sexual attraction model


Dawning

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Altough you guys are saying that the lack of desire can lead to a lack of attraction, in my case it never has been that way around. Others here say they lack attraction but not desire but some of you are saying this is not Asexuality. I still am struggling to see how these folk could be Allosexuals though because with no attraction how can they become attracted. I had to do a zillion things before I became attracted, and the circumstances had to be just right too? 

Well... the attraction thing is just a pull to a person. And people split it into a million parts here. Romantic, sensual, aesthetic, sexual, etc. 

 

I don't really experience aesthetic attraction, which is that appearance base oolala that person is hot thing. Some aces do, some sexuals dont. 

 

I do experience romantic, but it splits from sexual and I can be romantically attracted to someone with no sexual interest. I can also have sensual without sexual. 

 

The sexual attraction is something (some factor of the person - be it looks, smell, comfort level, trust, emotional bond, intelligence level, whatever) sparks you choosing that person for the sex. That one I have only felt once, despite being in relationships and wanting romantic or even sensual (kissing, hugging, cuddling). 

 

For most people... all those tend to roll up together in various ways. Aesthetic leads to sensual to sexual and to romantic maybe. 

 

But if you limit sexual attraction to Joey drooling over a hot girl cause shes hot... well, then you cut out people like me, just because we have attraction to things other than aesthetic. Which makes a lot more people suddenly ace. 

 

I do have attraction. To my wife. To her personality and how she makes me feel. And it is sexual attraction, which sparked sexual desire. Without the attraction, I had no desire. It just isn't the hollywood type of omg hot drool... 

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5 hours ago, Marlow1 said:

Others here say they lack attraction but not desire but some of you are saying this is not Asexuality. I still am struggling to see how these folk could be Allosexuals though because with no attraction how can they become attracted? I had to do a zillion things before I became attracted, and the circumstances had to be just right too? 

We don't agree with the premise that "attraction" informs orientation, in the first place.

 

It simply does not matter if there is "attraction" involved. The key is an inherent desire to have sex, that is all that matters.

 

If this desire is there => sexual.

If it's not there => asexual.

If it's hardly ever there (e.g. you can count the number of times over an entire lifetime on one hand) => grey-ace.

 

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8 hours ago, Serran said:

I don't really experience aesthetic attraction, which is that appearance base oolala that person is hot thing. Some aces do, some sexuals dont. 

That's sexual attraction as far as I'm concerned, especially if towards a sexual characteristic of that person, but I've never been in a relationship where sexual attraction formed due to non physical factors

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16 hours ago, Serran said:

As I said, desire exists in porn addicts. It just gets muddied and redirected. Porn addicts choose porn over a partner, despite desiring the partner, blowing up the relationship and usually making the addict miserable because they want to choose their partner but just can't because the pull of porn is a sirens call they can't deny. They find it nearly impossible to delete their stash. They try to quit but can't. They have cravings and urges. They spend hours on it, even when not relieving libido. Libido is just a physical drive for release, not an addiction on the level of gambling or porn or video games or other psychological addictions. 

 

Edit: Also once you remove porn from a porn addict, they tend to "reset" to their natural state and desire for people returns to normal. 

 

15 hours ago, CBC said:

Um yeah, strong libido and porn (or sex) addiction are not the same thing. Although not in the sexual realm, I know what the general experience of addiction is like. You want to stop but you can't. Whatever you're addicted to can often become more important than things like your partner, your family, your friends, your health, your safety, your education or career, etc. Whatever you're addicted to is your best friend and worst enemy. It permeates your thoughts and dictates how you spend your time, which is structured around when you'll get your next "fix" of whatever it is that floods your brain with chemicals that make you feel good for just a little while before you feel terrible and ashamed and the cycle starts all over again. The idea of living without your thing seems utterly impossible.

 

So anyway, I've experienced other (non-sexual) addictions, and I've also experienced periods of strong libido. The latter obviously involves things like thinking about sex a lot, and likely frequent masturbation and/or partnered sexual activity, but you don't feel like you've lost control, it doesn't hurt your relationships or make you skip out on your responsibilities, you aren't frantic and ashamed, and you feel connected to your sexuality in a healthy way.

Thanks. I was concerned my libido was actually an addiction, as it does get annoying if I don't relieve it after a number of days.

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1 hour ago, œddy said:

 

Thanks. I was concerned my libido was actually an addiction, as it does get annoying if I don't relieve it after a number of days.

Libido is to sex/porn addiction as hunger is to compulsive overeating. The former in each couple is a normal and healthy (if sometimes annoying) biological function; the latter is a psychological/psychosomatic disorder that can - and untreated, probably will - completely ruin your quality of life.

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12 hours ago, Serran said:

 

 

Well... the attraction thing is just a pull to a person. And people split it into a million parts here. Romantic, sensual, aesthetic, sexual, etc. 

 

I don't really experience aesthetic attraction, which is that appearance base oolala that person is hot thing. Some aces do, some sexuals dont. 

 

I do experience romantic, but it splits from sexual and I can be romantically attracted to someone with no sexual interest. I can also have sensual without sexual. 

 

The sexual attraction is something (some factor of the person - be it looks, smell, comfort level, trust, emotional bond, intelligence level, whatever) sparks you choosing that person for the sex. That one I have only felt once, despite being in relationships and wanting romantic or even sensual (kissing, hugging, cuddling). 

 

For most people... all those tend to roll up together in various ways. Aesthetic leads to sensual to sexual and to romantic maybe. 

 

But if you limit sexual attraction to Joey drooling over a hot girl cause shes hot... well, then you cut out people like me, just because we have attraction to things other than aesthetic. Which makes a lot more people suddenly ace. 

 

I do have attraction. To my wife. To her personality and how she makes me feel. And it is sexual attraction, which sparked sexual desire. Without the attraction, I had no desire. It just isn't the hollywood type of omg hot drool... 

I feel like I am running this on and on, I am not meaning to be a pain, but I was told when I arrived at AVEN that it is the lack of attraction that determines Asexuality

 

In my case my attraction to my wife kind of mirrors your experience. She is the only person I have ever been attracted to and it did take a multitude of factors to make this happen, but her appearance is included in that, but I understand where you are coming from regarding this. 

 

I know that folk refer to the immediate attraction thing as a Hollywood thing, and I kind of get how phoney that is, although 99% of the time, I don't see it, but I get the idea of that. But only because that is how my wife experiences attraction. I could warble, but from what I can gather, how a person looks and if they desire her seem to be the two main factors for her, but then other things come in like what they might be able to do for her and such. She learned at a young age though that this kind of attraction can be dangerous, and so she puts the breaks on. I have never needed to do that

 

But anyway, when talking to other people, in therapy, friends and such they are saying something entirely different to the two of us, many, and I mean many, are saying thry often sleep with people that they are not attracted to

 

https://www.livescience.com/2678-realities-night-stands-revealed.html

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4 hours ago, CBC said:

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It took me a few minutes to understand this. I thought it was some kind of beastiality bondage.......Especially when I was looking at what he is doing with his left hand?? 

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Yeah. ONS has little to do with omg they are hot... its omg I am horny, they are willing. But, something still makes them select girl 50 over girl 70. Could be the way she moves, a sadness in her eyes, a body language that says I'm available. Something pulls them to that person for a one nighter over someone else. 

 

But, again, if we limit it to Hollywood sexual attraction ideals then asexuality is more prevalent than homosexuality and also completely meaningless when it comes to compatibility with other aces. Ace dating sites are safe places to find non-sexual relationships... but if aces are off having one nighters or loads of hot sex and just not drooling over how hot the person is, then all the aces that lack sexual desire really are just HSDD and it isn't an orientation to not desire partnered sex, since that has nothing to do with asexuality...

 

Orrr... AVEN defines sexual attraction as the desire to connect sexually with someone else. And DSM-V links lack of sexual desires (partnered, it recognizes aces have libidos) with asexuality enough to exclude aces from a desire disorder. Neither makes sense if desires sex as long as people aren't seen as hot is an asexual thing. Nor does an ace seeking other aces for relationships, so those lack of desire aces need a whole new label if people wanna take this one from them. 

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41 minutes ago, Marlow1 said:

Especially when I was looking at what he is doing with his left hand?? 

Damn, now I can't look at this image anymore without thinking its dirty

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8 hours ago, Mysticus Insanus said:

We don't agree with the premise that "attraction" informs orientation, in the first place.

 

It simply does not matter if there is "attraction" involved. The key is an inherent desire to have sex, that is all that matters.

 

If this desire is there => sexual.

If it's not there => asexual.

If it's hardly ever there (e.g. you can count the number of times over an entire lifetime on one hand) => grey-ace.

 

There are others, even here at this thread, saying that they cannot experience desire until attraction has taken place

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3 minutes ago, Marlow1 said:

There are others, even here at this thread, saying that they cannot experience desire until attraction has taken place

That's not relevant to what I said.

 

Even if a specific person's desire is "caused by attraction", it remains true that the desire itself, not the "attraction", is the deciding factor. If you construe an "attraction" that does not lead to desire, the presence of said "attraction" has absolutely no bearing on a person's orientation.

 

"Attraction" by itself, without desire, does not determine orientation - neither in the case of asexuality nor in the case of any other orientation.

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29 minutes ago, Mysticus Insanus said:

That's not relevant to what I said.

 

Even if a specific person's desire is "caused by attraction", it remains true that the desire itself, not the "attraction", is the deciding factor. If you construe an "attraction" that does not lead to desire, the presence of said "attraction" has absolutely no bearing on a person's orientation.

 

"Attraction" by itself, without desire, does not determine orientation - neither in the case of asexuality nor in the case of any other orientation.

But how does a person decide whom they desire before they have ever been attracted? Up until the age of 35 years I did not experience either desire or attraction so I had no idea whom I might want to have sex with, nor did I want to have sex with anybody, hence I was Asexual by both definitions that are used here at AVEN. But once I started to be attracted to my wife, then it stopped being appropriate for me to call myself Asexual

 

Incidentally, I never did call myself Asexual, the term had not been invented, but for the discussion here, I am using this analogy as an example

 

Anyway, when I am in the attraction stage but still not having sex, mainly because I never have and I am not sure I want to, I am now a Greysexual, all the same, because the change that has occurred is fundamental to the argument

 

Later, much later I might add, when the shock and surprise of all of this has calmed down, and I am then feeling more comfortable about things, I can then do the actual act. But prior to all this I had not had sex so whom I slept with in the end did not determine what was going on for me, it was the experiencing the attraction that indicated I cannot possible be Asexual. 

 

Even if I had not gone forward and slept with my wife, at the point when I became sexually attracted that was when the change occurred. There are a lot of heterosexual people that are still virgins but they know that they are heterosexual. And there are a lot of celibate gay folk that have had no experience whatsoever but they know that they are gay

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28 minutes ago, Marlow1 said:

But how does a person decide whom they desire before they have ever been attracted?

People do not "decide" who they desire to have sex with. That desire is already inherently there (that's what an orientation is), you don't get a choice in the matter.

 

A straight man or a Lesbian will desire sex with women, even if no woman is around; likeise, a straight woman or gay man will desire sex with men, even if no man is around.

 

 

34 minutes ago, Marlow1 said:

But once I started to be attracted to my wife, then it stopped being appropriate for me to call myself Asexual

No. "Being attracted to" your wife did not in any way make it inappropriate to call yourself asexual.

 

The only thing that makes it inappropriate to call yourself asexual is desiring sex with another person (regardless of whether or not you "are attracted to" that person - this "attraction" is not relevant to the matter.)

 

 

32 minutes ago, Marlow1 said:

And there are a lot of celibate gay folk that have had no experience whatsoever but they know that they are gay

Exactly, you're proving my point. They never made the decision to desire sex partners of the same gender. The desire is just there, whether they act on it or not.

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2 hours ago, Mysticus Insanus said:

People do not "decide" who they desire to have sex with. That desire is already inherently there (that's what an orientation is), you don't get a choice in the matter.

 

A straight man or a Lesbian will desire sex with women, even if no woman is around; likeise, a straight woman or gay man will desire sex with men, even if no man is around.

 

 

No. "Being attracted to" your wife did not in any way make it inappropriate to call yourself asexual.

 

The only thing that makes it inappropriate to call yourself asexual is desiring sex with another person (regardless of whether or not you "are attracted to" that person - this "attraction" is not relevant to the matter.)

 

 

Exactly, you're proving my point. They never made the decision to desire sex partners of the same gender. The desire is just there, whether they act on it or not.

I am attracted to my wife all of the time, but I do not desire sex with her all of the time

 

I have never been attracted to any other woman, and therefore I have never desired sex with another woman

 

Other people tell me they do desire sex, and are attracted to certain people, but when they actually have sex it is not always with somebody they are attracted to. I cannot fully get my head around this because this has never happened for me, but it seems like that is the norm. I guess this is why I fall in the grey area because the process I am using is not the same as it is for everybody else. 

 

Before I met my wife there was no attraction and no desire, it will be the same if she passes away

 

My brain hemorrhage highlighted this because at that time I could not really remember my wife and I needed a whole host of factors to be put in place so that that attraction would return. If I had not done all the work that was needed I would not have become attracted again and so the desire also would not have returned. It was whilst we were working this out that we discover that I am blind in my minds eye and I discovered other people are not blind in the minds eye and can therefore more easily become attracted and experience desire, which I guess is what you are talking about, but given that I am wired up differently, other people also must be wired up differently and their experience might be nearer to mine than what these other people are describing. Are there other people that cannot desire sex unless it with a person they are attracted to, a lot of folk here do seem to be describing this? 

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52 minutes ago, Marlow1 said:

I am attracted to my wife all of the time, but I do not desire sex with her all of the time

Which means that the claim that "attraction causes desire" is wrong, even in your personal experience.

 

 

54 minutes ago, Marlow1 said:

It was whilst we were working this out that we discover that I am blind in my minds eye and I discovered other people are not blind in the minds eye and can therefore more easily become attracted and experience desire, which I guess is what you are talking about, but given that I am wired up differently, other people also must be wired up differently and their experience might be nearer to mine than what these other people are describing.

Yes, obviously your aphantasia has a major impact on your experience.

 

That still isn't a logically valid argument for basing orientations on "attraction".

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1 hour ago, Mysticus Insanus said:

Which means that the claim that "attraction causes desire" is wrong, even in your personal experience.

 

 

Yes, obviously your aphantasia has a major impact on your experience.

 

That still isn't a logically valid argument for basing orientations on "attraction".

This poll was conducted at AVEN. Other folk on other boards that have Aphantasia are also saying that they experience limited attraction and believe that they too fall under the Asexual Umberella

 

 

There really has not been not that much research been conducted in this area but scientist have claimed that the minds eye, the imagination, what folk are already storing in their mind, is what makes a person desire, or be attracted to a particular person. This immediate attraction/desire thing is what I cannot do

 

http://intentblog.com/is-it-love-or-is-it-projection/

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Winged Whisperer

To the people who have "primary sexual desire" but no attraction, does literally anyone do to fulfill that desire? Are some more desirable than others to fulfill that sexual desire? If the answer to the first is no or the answer to the second yes, then what do you call that preference?

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To the people who have "primary sexual desire" but no attraction, does literally anyone do to fulfill that desire? Are some more desirable than others to fulfill that sexual desire? If the answer to the first is no or the answer to the second yes, then what do you call that preference?

It's the "intellectual choice for how to release the pressure towards orgasms", duh :rolleyes:

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Winged Whisperer
On 9/24/2019 at 1:08 PM, Marlow1 said:

Since nobody has answered your question I will try to but please remember that I 'can' get attracted, all be it to only one person only, but I can, and this is different than not being able to get attracted at all!! 

Well as you readily admitted, you are demisexual and can get attracted, which doesn't really answer the situation that I described. ❤️

I've also asked this question before, and never really ever got any proper answers because as I suspect the questions reveal an inconvenient truth. I'm not even really saying that it's theoretically impossible to have "primary desire" without any "attraction", but as I suspect that's far more rarer than what is being claimed. If such a person exists, then really, they should have absolutely no preference, because that preference literally is attraction, unless we have a very fundamental disagreement on the definition of attraction.

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