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People are not born in countries.


S..

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Knight of Cydonia
5 hours ago, S.. said:

There will be people governing those people in that area etc.

The same goes for travelling. If you travel far away, you're governed by the people you travel to:

So you recognize and accept that different areas have different governing bodies, yet refuse to acknowledge that's what defines a country???

 

5 hours ago, S.. said:

If I walk over to your area and call it "Idiotland," when you are born: that does not mean you are born in Idiotland.

Forcing you to claim that you are from Idiotland, because I say you are born in Idiotland: does not make you from Idiotland.

No one here is saying this. "Idiotland I just made up myself" is clearly not the same as a country that has established laws, a central government, and international recognition.

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6 hours ago, S.. said:

Birth is the creation of existence. To claim that we exist before we are born is a contradiction.

This is hilarious, I think you have just won the "most nonsensical thing ever said on AVEN" award, and that is a serious challenge! Birth is not the creation of existence. That is not the definition of the word "birth". Birth is simply the emergence of a baby from it's mothers body. Do you seriously not know how babies are made, or are you just trolling?

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ok, take someone who is clearly being irrational, but claiming to hold the rational ground, like us folk who're just buying into this ridiculous "born in countries" idea. how should you interact with such a person? how would you convince them otherwise? repetition appears to be ineffective. 

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2 hours ago, gisiebob said:

how would you convince them otherwise? repetition appears to be ineffective. 

Well, benefits have been brought up. There is also the harm that comes from forcing people to associate to labels that they do not support. Ultimately it remains a choice, even if the people go around torturing peers until they swear they represent country.

 

3 hours ago, theV0ID said:

Birth is simply the emergence of a baby from it's mothers body.

That is one definition. However, it is impossible to be born from just a mother, so it is not accurate. Also, if it were, and that is birth exclusively, then clearly we are not born in countries or that would be part of the definition.

3 hours ago, Knight of Cydonia said:

So you ... refuse to acknowledge that's what defines a country???

 

No one here is saying this. "Idiotland I just made up myself" is clearly not the same as a country that has established laws, a central government, and international recognition.

We never once talked about what defines a country other than the labels and others associated to them. People can create laws and a government for Idiotland, making ir famous, but that does not in any way alter that you were not born in Idiotland. In fact, you clearly had no say in any of that and are then even further from being a true Idiot.

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5 minutes ago, S.. said:

That is one definition. However, it is impossible to be born from just a mother, so it is not accurate. Also, if it were, and that is birth exclusively, then clearly we are not born in countries or that would be part of the definition.

Alright then, what other definitions are there? "it is impossible to be born from just a mother"... erm WTF citation needed. And no being born in countries would not need to be included in the definition, why on Earth would it? 

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37 minutes ago, theV0ID said:

Alright then, what other definitions are there? "it is impossible to be born from just a mother"... erm WTF citation needed. And no being born in countries would not need to be included in the definition, why on Earth would it? 

Well, there is one book that claims that a person became pregnant without a father. It is called the Bible. As far as I know, modern people do not asexually spawn children. Your reproduction and birth records should confirm this. This is by your definition.

 

Also, to answer your question: you just stated that your position is there should be no definition of a country being associated to birth and asked me why there should be.

 

There should not be. That is my position. People are not born in countries, so it is good that they were not associated to birth by definition and it should stay that way.

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5 hours ago, pickles mcgee said:

What does "just born naturally" mean?

A couple elements are put together and a new one is created. There are no labels attached yet, because it is new. That is nature. The two elements creating the new element can be cited later or it can be found that there is no relation. That is life. We do not know where we come from: where the big bang came from, where God or all of the gods came from, where the two elements came from ... It is natural to be born this way, because that is how all of us exist.

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29 minutes ago, S.. said:

Well, there is one book that claims that a person became pregnant without a father. It is called the Bible. As far as I know, modern people do not asexually spawn children. Your reproduction and birth records should confirm this. This is by your definition.

 

Also, to answer your question: you just stated that your position is there should be no definition of a country being associated to birth and asked me why there should be.

 

There should not be. That is my position. People are not born in countries, so it is good that they were not associated to birth by definition and it should stay that way.

Birth and conception are two entirely different things. Conception requires sperm and an egg, birth happens ~9 months later when the infant leaves the mothers body.

 

That's not how definitions work. By your logic the definition of birth would also have to include "on Earth, within the Milky Way, in the Universe..." it's superfluous information. And not everyone is born in a country, some people are born over international waters. 

 

Just because you don't want something to be true doesn't make it not true.  Saying that it's not true over and over won't change the fact that it is. So you don't like reality, boo hoo, get over it.

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2 hours ago, theV0ID said:

Birth and conception are two entirely different things. Conception requires sperm and an egg, birth happens ~9 months later when the infant leaves the mothers body.

 

That's not how definitions work. By your logic the definition of birth would also have to include "on Earth, within the Milky Way, in the Universe..." it's superfluous information. And not everyone is born in a country, some people are born over international waters. 

 

Just because you don't want something to be true doesn't make it not true.  Saying that it's not true over and over won't change the fact that it is. So you don't like reality, boo hoo, get over it.

Birth cannot happen without conception as far as we know, and again: I've only heard of one birth that's written to have happened without.

 

Earth, Milky Way... these are namess of things that we've observed later in life that we then contribute to our birth.

There was no "Earth" no "Milky Way" when we were born.

We learn about these things naturally as we learn language, meaning, and discover the world around us.
That they are named does not mean that we are born in them: It means that we have been presented with a means to describe something.

Those names and meanings do not control us or define who we are unless we adopt them as our own and make them part of our definition.

 

In this sense, the name of a country or region and what people associate to that name: do not carry over to us unless we choose them.

This is the reality of the world that we live in.

 

People are not born in a country.

They are born naturally and freely choose what suites them in the world around them.

In that sense, their citizenship is also born naturally as they make these choices and it cannot be forced into submission by an outside force.

 

I like some aspects of reality, which is why I am sharing them with people.

 

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Knight of Cydonia
7 hours ago, S.. said:

People can create laws and a government for Idiotland, making ir famous, but that does not in any way alter that you were not born in Idiotland. In fact, you clearly had no say in any of that and are then even further from being a true Idiot.

If Idiotland was truly internationally recognized and developed enough to be considered a valid country, then Idiotland would be listed as someone's place of birth if they were born there.

 

Feeling that this is wrong is one thing. Denying that this is the reality of the way things work is another.

 

3 hours ago, S.. said:

In this sense, the name of a country or region and what people associate to that name: do not carry over to us unless we choose them.

This is the reality of the world that we live in.

Try to break the law in a country and see what reality does to you in return.

 

Also, you act like having a country written in your birth certificate means you are now forced forever to represent that country or be doomed. But that's also not reality. You could be born in Canada, but spend your entire childhood in the US. Canada would be written on your birth certificate, but you'd likely identify as an "American", and that's fine. Some countries don't even care about your place of birth! Your growing, formative years will be a lot more important for your identity than where you happened to pop out.

 

But that still doesn't change the reality of what's written in your birth certificate!

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Alejandrogynous

I'd like for OP to state plainly what they're actually upset about (i.e. what prompted this), maybe then I'd have a chance at grasping what they're trying to say.

 

Because. What.   

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are you willing to talk about faulty rationalizing? about how our minds are really good at accepting how we happen to see the world as true even when that isn't correct?

 

say something broke in my head and for some reason I equated the color of grass with donkey fur, and I start talking to people how if you shave a donkey the grass around it will be a different color. something absurd, right? but my mind protects me from being wrong. it ignores evidence, changes images, invents oppositional agendas

 

this is a really challenging subject in psychology, because the only person who is able to bring someone out of their irrationality is themselves, because our minds are willing to accept every other person out there as wrong to protect our own sense of sanity

 

I understand that you believe we are all wrong. and that this is something that is important. if you had a faulty rationality on this matter how would you be able find out about it?

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16 hours ago, Alejandrogynous said:

I'd like for OP to state plainly what they're actually upset about (i.e. what prompted this), maybe then I'd have a chance at grasping what they're trying to say.

 

Because. What.   

I'm guessing it's some sort of immigration issue? But yeah, it would be nice to know. 

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17 hours ago, Knight of Cydonia said:

If Idiotland was truly internationally recognized and developed enough to be considered a valid country, then Idiotland would be listed as someone's place of birth if they were born there.

 

Feeling that this is wrong is one thing. Denying that this is the reality of the way things work is another.

 

Try to break the law in a country and see what reality does to you in return.

 

Also, you act like having a country written in your birth certificate means you are now forced forever to represent that country or be doomed. But that's also not reality. You could be born in Canada, but spend your entire childhood in the US. Canada would be written on your birth certificate, but you'd likely identify as an "American", and that's fine. Some countries don't even care about your place of birth! Your growing, formative years will be a lot more important for your identity than where you happened to pop out.

 

But that still doesn't change the reality of what's written in your birth certificate!

But that's just it: It's not your birth certficate, because you weren't born in Idiotland:

People associated you to Idiotland after you were born.

Most countries will not allow travelers to travel if they suspect they might stay in the destination country,

because their "birthplace" requires an immigration policy that demands strong ties to Idiotland.

Knowing the destination country's language and culture, because that is all you know, is then used against you.

 

So, you would be required to represent a foreign country prior to being allowed to travel there.
Nobody will give you any other type of travel permit, regardless of cash etc., unless you swear you are foreign and have strong ties...

... because it says that you were born in Idiotland and therefore must represent it firstly.

 

17 hours ago, gisiebob said:

are you willing to talk about faulty rationalizing? about how our minds are really good at accepting how we happen to see the world as true even when that isn't correct?

 

say something broke in my head and for some reason I equated the color of grass with donkey fur, and I start talking to people how if you shave a donkey the grass around it will be a different color. something absurd, right? but my mind protects me from being wrong. it ignores evidence, changes images, invents oppositional agendas

 

this is a really challenging subject in psychology, because the only person who is able to bring someone out of their irrationality is themselves, because our minds are willing to accept every other person out there as wrong to protect our own sense of sanity

 

I understand that you believe we are all wrong. and that this is something that is important. if you had a faulty rationality on this matter how would you be able find out about it?

If you can identify a fault, such as in the donkey instance: then that's fine to talk about. However, if you examine the "fault" and find out that donkey fur was actually correct... could you handle that? Would it affect or in otherwords redefine your life? It certainly would seem to benefit mine, since I'm the one experiencing a "fault" in this scenario that I'm rationally examining and wondering what happened to where people started discriminating according to birth or birthright in basic liberties.

 

1 hour ago, theV0ID said:

I'm guessing it's some sort of immigration issue? But yeah, it would be nice to know. 

Well, imagine if one day everybody and their associate say that you were born in a foreign country and that you need to leave and immigrate in order to return to where you are standing right now. However, you have no interest in a foreign country and couldn't care less about a "foreign" birthplace label that you know nothing about and care not to.

 

This is no longer an "immigration" issue: It's a foreign policy at play and a domestic issue for you.

You are basically being thrown into foreign territory to fight a political war that you shouldn't be further removed from in your day-to-day service to the nation.

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1 hour ago, S.. said:

Well, imagine if one day everybody and their associate say that you were born in a foreign country and that you need to leave and immigrate in order to return to where you are standing right now. However, you have no interest in a foreign country and couldn't care less about a "foreign" birthplace label that you know nothing about and care not to.

 

This is no longer an "immigration" issue: It's a foreign policy at play and a domestic issue for you.

You are basically being thrown into foreign territory to fight a political war that you shouldn't be further removed from in your day-to-day service to the nation.

... So it's an immigration issue. Thanks for clearing that up.

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59 minutes ago, theV0ID said:

... So it's an immigration issue. Thanks for clearing that up.

You are ignoring the part where this is not an immigration issue. A foreign country creating paperwork for you does not make you a foreigner. Also, if you were born naturally and do not have any certificate, then you are in the same boat.

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If there were no governments this wouldn't even be an issue. Governments are why we can't have nice things.

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1 minute ago, Gloomy said:

If there were no governments this wouldn't even be an issue. Governments are why we can't have nice things.

There can be governments without birthplace discrimination. Birth certificates are a recent trend and somehow people started using birthplace against people.

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On 9/17/2019 at 10:45 PM, S.. said:

People are associated to countries after birth.

This reminds me of the quote (I don’t know by who, sorry):

 

”The location of your mother at the time of your birth should not dictate your chances in life.”

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Come to think of it, the hospital I was born in was pretty close to the Mexican border. If I were born just a few miles away I'd be Mexican. 🤔

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1 hour ago, Iam9man said:

This reminds me of the quote (I don’t know by who, sorry):

 

”The location of your mother at the time of your birth should not dictate your chances in life.”

That's a cool quote.

 

42 minutes ago, Gloomy said:

Come to think of it, I choose to represent the Mexican national label, because I was born naturally and have the inallienable right to my own liberty. 🤔

There you go.

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10 hours ago, S.. said:

If you can identify a fault, such as in the donkey instance: then that's fine to talk about. However, if you examine the "fault" and find out that donkey fur was actually correct... could you handle that? Would it affect or in otherwords redefine your life? It certainly would seem to benefit mine, since I'm the one experiencing a "fault" in this scenario that I'm rationally examining and wondering what happened to where people started discriminating according to birth or birthright in basic liberties.

yes, absolutely. a delusion isn't optional, your mind believes something is entirely reasonable, and bends your perception of the word around this incorrect truth. and the worst part is that everyone who claimed otherwise would either be to stupid or have ulterior motives... it's incredibly easy to handwave away the rest of humanity for those suffering from delusions...easy and lonely. to be quite honest, delusions terrify me. I want to believe that I woud be able to spot the cracks in my worldview, but I don't think that would be the case. I want to believe that I would easily submit to understanding of the world held by those around me, like a blind man being guided with a hand on someone's shoulder. but if I did not believe I was blind I think it would be hard for me.

 

I can't say that you are delusional, for one I am not a medical  professional, I am just a stranger on the internet, but more importantly if you were delusional, your mind would not believe me. but can I ask that you look back through this thread, not on a basis of right and wrong, but on how people are trying to communicate. could you be open to the idea, not that you are wrong, but that what should be your perfectly rational point of view is a product of something not working correctly within your mind?

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34 minutes ago, gisiebob said:

... delusions terrify me ...

could you be open to the idea ... of something not working correctly within your mind?

Hell; it's not that scary.

Try shooting an arrow sometime:

If you miss, then something's not working correctly in your mind if you were meaning to hit.

 

Everybody has something "not working correctly" in their mind.

 

Back on topic:

Have you ever considered what your life would be like if you chose to serve your country (because you had a choice)?

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3 hours ago, S.. said:

There you go.

I don't choose the Mexican national label, just saying I was just born really close to Mexico. But yeah "I was born naturally and have the inallienable right to my own liberty" I agree with.

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12 minutes ago, S.. said:

Hell; it's not that scary.

Try shooting an arrow sometime:

If you miss, then something's not working correctly in your mind if you were meaning to hit.

 

Everybody has something "not working correctly" in their mind.

 

Back on topic:

Have you ever considered what your life would be like if you chose to serve your country (because you had a choice)?

that's not a delusion, though. our minds' ability to simulate and model physics while impressive isn't 100% accurate, and that is understandable and understood. if someone's motor control had deficits to the point where it hindered them this would be a problem that is self evident. this is not about missing an arrow. this is about not being able to conceptualize that the arrow could have missed.

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Just now, gisiebob said:

that's not a delusion, though. our minds' ability to simulate and model physics while impressive isn't 100% accurate, and that is understandable and understood. if someone's motor control had deficits to the point where it hindered them this would be a problem that is self evident. this is not about missing an arrow. this is about not being able to conceptualize that the arrow could have missed.

I would think that if the concept of the arrow missing does not exist, then there's a high chance that it would hit.

Indeed, if it misses, then it could be argued that the concept of it missing had existed to begin with.

 

In our case, we're talking about a delusion where people claim to know "where" we are born and that this is obviously a country.

Everybody in this delusion erases all their experience over time in favor of a happy image of labels.

If anyone does not fit in the labels... then force them to fit.

 

That's what I see as an "unhealthy" delusion that people should probably wake up from.

 

 

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28 minutes ago, Gloomy said:

I don't choose the Mexican national label, just saying I was just born really close to Mexico. But yeah "I was born naturally and have the inallienable right to my own liberty" I agree with.

Well, you are saying that "Mexico" is only a physical thing that you were near. However, you can see Mexico in many places other than the one physical location.

If you couldn't, then we would not even be able to talk about it.

 

So, saying that you were born close to Mexico is strange to me.

Consider somebody saying that the were born close to Pink.

 

The whole "People are not born in countries" thing is real; it's not a joke.

Birthplace and birth certificates were added into our lives a few generations ago and this way of thinking has been getting worse.

 

Imagine if AVEN started to claim that you are not asexual unless THEY decide that you were born that way:

And you might first have to prove that you are sexual.

 

That would be because people are "born in sexualities."

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2 minutes ago, S.. said:

I would think that if the concept of the arrow missing does not exist, then there's a high chance that it would hit.

Indeed, if it misses, then it could be argued that the concept of it missing had existed to begin with.

yes. which is why someone who is delusional in that they believe that they will always hit with an arrow will subconsciously reject a reality in which they have missed. "I was aiming for that tree, actually" "That tree is the center of the target" "There must be a magnetic phenomenon at work here, let us investigate that" "That was someone else's arrow" "Someone evil psychically deflected my arrow" it isn't something that can be argued to find the truth. I could say "being born next to pink sounds perfectly reasonable" but then you would find me unreasonable, I believe. and neither of us benefit, you have not conveyed your understanding to the external world and I have failed to communicate to you.

yes, all of us could all be delusional on this matter, you could be the sole holder of a kernel of truth. this is a common idea for someone who is confronting their delusion. and while I absolutely believe that you should not just blindly accept the will of the masses, there is a point at which we should consider that if everyone else is wrong then maybe the person who is wrong is ourselves, even if there is no possibility that that could be correct.

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1 minute ago, gisiebob said:

yes. which is why someone who is delusional in that they believe that they will always hit with an arrow will subconsciously reject a reality in which they have missed. "I was aiming for that tree, actually" "That tree is the center of the target" "There must be a magnetic phenomenon at work here, let us investigate that" "That was someone else's arrow" "Someone evil psychically deflected my arrow" it isn't something that can be argued to find the truth. I could say "being born next to pink sounds perfectly reasonable" but then you would find me unreasonable, I believe. and neither of us benefit, you have not conveyed your understanding to the external world and I have failed to communicate to you.

yes, all of us could all be delusional on this matter, you could be the sole holder of a kernel of truth. this is a common idea for someone who is confronting their delusion. and while I absolutely believe that you should not just blindly accept the will of the masses, there is a point at which we should consider that if everyone else is wrong then maybe the person who is wrong is ourselves, even if there is no possibility that that could be correct.

I have shown you a world where the arrow did not hit and "Because we can" is really your argument.

Why not just say it and do it anyway...?

 

Why so?

 

What are you even talking about a "sole holder of a kernel of truth."

Have you not realized after all this time that this isn't something I'm holding onto.

 

 

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