People are not born in countries.

[Guest]

29 minutes ago, S.. said:

A country a label and culture. You aren't born in a label and culture until you learn language and culture.

Those things happen naturally and not artifically or under force of association when you exit the womb.

Gaining identity and culture are a completely different concept to being born in a country. People within countries can have hugely varying identities and cultures. You can be born in a country and be a citizen of that country without even knowing it, there are still a few isolated tribes for which that is the case. The were still born it that country whether they know it or not.

[S..]

9 minutes ago, CBC said:

You don't use the word 'sheeple' by any chance, do you?

No; if you're sheepishly referencing something, then I'd like to know it.

 

1 minute ago, theV0ID said:

Dude that doesn't even make sense. No one with a functioning brain has ever said that. 

...

The were still born it that country whether they know it or not.

People's claim of being born in countries doesn't make sense. That is the point.

All people in societal paperwork positions claim that you are born when you enter the world physically:

This is the whole "birth certificate" and "people witnessing birth" rule.

However, they say that you are "born" in a country.

 

We can't be physically born into a mental label or culture.

That just doesn't happen in nature.

 

People are also claiming that the label or culture is with us at birth: Period.

That's an inescapable womb. That's the very definition of not being born.

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, S.. said:

No; if you're sheepishly referencing something, then I'd like to know it.

 

People's claim of being born in countries doesn't make sense. That is the point.

All people in societal paperwork positions claim that you are born when you enter the world physically:

This is the whole "birth certificate" and "people witnessing birth" rule.

However, they say that you are "born" in a country.

 

We can't be physically born into a mental label or culture.

That just doesn't happen in nature.

 

People are also claiming that the label or culture is with us at birth: Period.

That's an inescapable womb. That's the very definition of not being born.

Yes it does happen in nature. Humans are not magically separate from nature. Our ability to create "stories" in which everyone believes to an extent that they become our lived reality, such as countries, money, social groups, orientations etc. are a fundamental part of our nature as the human species. 20,000 years ago countries as we know them today may not have existed but babies would still have been born into a family, a tribe, a culture. Countries are the current reality, and if you are born within the borders of one then the physical reality is that you were born in that country.

 

Again, the bit on bold doesn't make sense, and I have no idea where you are getting such odd concepts from. Maybe there is a language barrier at work here?

[SithLord]

1 hour ago, S.. said:

You are not magically American when you exit the womb: Your nationality and citizenship born naturally as you learn about America and make choices in it's favor.

Every single person is born naturally without citizenship to a country and is afterwards associated or labelled as a citizen of a country.

This is why I keep comparing it to gender and race. While you're born with a skin color and sex, you aren't born a gender, you grow into it. Your skin color is affected by society and is given meaning. You're born in a country and are taught that culture and those rules, so you are American as much as you're a gender or race. 

 

Plus, "make choices in it's favor" is too general. Pretty sure anyone below 18 in America has no choice one way or another but are still called Americans. And you can choose to not vote or otherwise participate in these "choices in it's favor" as just surviving can happen anywhere and doesn't require you to be for or against the country.

[S..]

9 minutes ago, theV0ID said:

Yes it does happen in nature. Humans are not magically separate from nature.

Countries are the current reality, and if you are born within the borders of one then the physical reality is that you were born in that country.

Again, the bit on bold doesn't make sense, and I have no idea where you are getting such odd concepts from.

No, it does not happen in nature. You are suggesting that we are separate from nature, which is not the case.

I'm stating that if I call myself a dolphin, then I naturally am not suddenly associated with being a dolphin (as we know a dolphin to be).

This is because in the natural world, our mentality does not suddenly sprout such reality.

 

Claiming that people are born in countries does not magically make them associated with countries.

They have none of the features or associations that are mentally attached to a country.

 

There is no natural way for people to be born in countries as we know them.

The only way is for a natural birth to occur and for citizenship to develop naturally:

That's the point.

I get these bold concepts, because people have claimed that we are born in countries and that we represent those countries:

I am told this is not a choice and that we are not free to travel unless we swear that we are born in the associated country. 

[S..]

2 minutes ago, SithGirl said:

This is why I keep comparing it to gender and race. While you're born with a skin color and sex, you aren't born a gender, you grow into it. Your skin color is affected by society and is given meaning. You're born in a country and are taught that culture and those rules, so you are American as much as you're a gender or race. 

 

Plus, "make choices in it's favor" is too general. Pretty sure anyone below 18 in America has no choice one way or another but are still called Americans. And you can choose to not vote or otherwise participate in these "choices in it's favor" as just surviving can happen anywhere and doesn't require you to be for or against the country.

Comparing it to gender and race is reasonable. However, people claim that it is a skin color or sex: because they claim you are born with this country.

We aren't born in a country to begin with.

[SithLord]

Just now, S.. said:

Comparing it to gender and race is reasonable. However, people claim that it is a skin color or sex: because they claim you are born with this country.

We aren't born in a country to begin with.

I think you're being too naturalistic. Countries are just a patch of dirt and mean nothing if boiled down to it's basic parts, but have been given meaning through people and society. By being born to parents who raise you, and around people who help raise and teach you, you're taught culture and society and are raised to be the citizen (or not, since people weren't always given citizenship based on just being human throughout history) of the country you happen to have been born "in". 

 

Yes, we're not necessarily "born American", but based on the patch of dirt where we are brought into existence or who we were brought into this world through, we are assigned the label even though it is meaningless other than the country being able to claim that individual as it's own.

[S..]

1 minute ago, SithGirl said:

I think you're being too naturalistic. Countries are just a patch of dirt and mean nothing if boiled down to it's basic parts, but have been given meaning through people and society. By being born to parents who raise you, and around people who help raise and teach you, you're taught culture and society and are raised to be the citizen (or not, since people weren't always given citizenship based on just being human throughout history) of the country you happen to have been born "in". 

 

Yes, we're not necessarily "born American", but based on the patch of dirt where we are brought into existence or who we were brought into this world through, we are assigned the label even though it is meaningless other than the country being able to claim that individual as it's own.

Except that a country isn't just a patch of dirt, which is why we have flags, languages, and cultural traditions.

Also, the label that's assigned to you is not a choice. You must represent those flags, languages, and cultural traditions assigned to you or you are to be put into prison if you attempt to travel or otherwise physically forced onto a patch of dirt for some reason.

[S..]

This is a problem if you don't speak the chosen country's language, carry it's flag, or represent it's culture:

IE. If you are actually a citizen of another country, because you naturally developed as one.

 

Forcing citizens to represent a foreign country, speak foreign languages, and represent foreign cultures, based on patches of dirt is mental:

Esp. if your own country is working with the foreign country to force you to do so based on "birth."

[Guest]

1 minute ago, S.. said:

You are suggesting that we are separate from nature, which is not the case.

Dude I literally said in the bit you quoted that we are not separate from nature. We are part of nature. Creating "stories" when we believe as a society to the point which they actually become the universal reality is in our nature. Thus it is natural for us to do so, thus our concept of countries and of being born into countries is natural. 

 

(Bit of an aside, but the idea of something not being natural making it somehow not real is ridiculous)

 

You seem to be talking about identities, rather than actual countries. Of course you cannot be born with a concept of cultural identity, these are internal concepts which we develop as we grow, and are entirely personal. Countries on the other hand are external concepts independent our our internal self perception. You as an individual can live your entire life completely ignorant of the existence of countries, with such a concept never in any way influencing your identity, but that doesn't mean that the somehow don't exist. 

[SithLord]

1 minute ago, S.. said:

Except that a country isn't just a patch of dirt, which is why we have flags, languages, and cultural traditions.

Also, the label that's assigned to you is not a choice. You must represent those flags, languages, and cultural traditions assigned to you or you are to be put into prison if you attempt to travel or otherwise physically forced onto a patch of dirt for some reason.

But no one's forcing you to travel. Also, the culture you can dismiss. Do I act like New Yorkers? Or like Southerners? We have largely different cultures. And the Japanese Americans who are basically Japanese just living in America are certainly not the same culture as my white-bread friends from a German town in farm-ville. 

 

America has no national language, so while it's much easier to use English, it's technically not required. It's just... very difficult. And going to Germany not speaking English despite your passport saying "America" won't matter in the slightest.

 

Flags? Dude, I know people who identify more with the Confederate flag than the American flag. 

 

It might not be a choice because we were born into the culture that dominates this patch of Earth, but you're not bound to really anything other than the "American" label because people have given it meaning and withholding that information is a red flag for them. 

[SithLord]

2 minutes ago, S.. said:

This is a problem if you don't speak the chosen country's language, carry it's flag, or represent it's culture:

IE. If you are actually a citizen of another country, because you naturally developed as one.

Okay, I'm passing out for the night, but wanted to say this made me laugh. I have a bunch of Mexican-American friends. They're not Mexican citizens, they're Americans. They have family in Mexico and visit them and identify quite strongly with their Mexican heritage. Are they Mexican? Yes. Mexican citizens? No, because that's a political label they have to choose because they were born north of the border. 

 

My friends who speak Spanish, proudly display the Mexican flag everywhere, and are very, very Mexican are apparently actually Mexican citizens without knowing it. Who knew?

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, SithGirl said:

Okay, I'm passing out for the night, but wanted to say this made me laugh. I have a bunch of Mexican-American friends. They're not Mexican citizens, they're Americans. They have family in Mexico and visit them and identify quite strongly with their Mexican heritage. Are they Mexican? Yes. Mexican citizens? No, because that's a political label they have to choose because they were born north of the border. 

 

My friends who speak Spanish, proudly display the Mexican flag everywhere, and are very, very Mexican are apparently actually Mexican citizens without knowing it. Who knew?

Meanwhile one of my best friends was born in Germany but hasn't been there since she was 2, doesn't speak a word of german, carry/display the flag, or know much of anything about german culture. She'll be surprised to know this makes her somehow not a German citizen.

[S..]

Just now, theV0ID said:

Dude I literally said in the bit you quoted that we are not separate from nature. We are part of nature. Creating "stories" when we believe as a society to the point which they actually become the universal reality is in our nature. Thus it is natural for us to do so, thus our concept of countries and of being born into countries is natural. 

 

(Bit of an aside, but the idea of something not being natural making it somehow not real is ridiculous)

 

You seem to be talking about identities, rather than actual countries. Of course you cannot be born with a concept of cultural identity, these are internal concepts which we develop as we grow, and are entirely personal. Countries on the other hand are external concepts independent our our internal self perception. You as an individual can live your entire life completely ignorant of the existence of countries, with such a concept never in any way influencing your identity, but that doesn't mean that the somehow don't exist. 

Again, you wrote "Humans are not magically separate from nature."

I never said that, so you are passively suggesting that humans are separate from nature.

If I say that you are not a murderer, then I am passively suggesting that you are murderer through the association.

It is not an attack. I am simply questioning why you suggested it in the first place.

 

You are ignoring that these words have meanings: Being born in a country is not natural, because it is not a real. There is no reality in which people are born and a country, culture, or national identity is acknowledged by the baby or child to exist. All that exists is a natural birth and the natural citizenship or association learned over time.

 

Countries are not external concepts. That would be violation of natural law: where countries exist and we do not. 

 

3 minutes ago, theV0ID said:

Meanwhile one of my best friends was born in Germany but hasn't been there since she was 2, doesn't speak a word of german, carry/display the flag, or know much of anything about german culture. She'll be surprised to know this makes her somehow not a German citizen.

Of course they aren't German. They only know the word. They weren't born in "Germany" to begin with.

They learned about "Germany" later and were told that it was associated to them.

 

It is always their choice if they are to be a German citizen:
That's because they were born naturally and they can only have a natural citizenship.

[kenny.]

i haven’t been following this too much, so let me know if i missed something. i think that i don’t entirely understand the “issue” here and how countries don’t exist. countries may be social constructs, but they exist for a reason and are very real. sure, they may simply be a mix of culture, government, and region, but it’s still a country with a government. without, it is my belief that the world would be far too chaotic without rules and regulations from one country to the next. as for a baby being born in a country, of course that can happen. it would be insanely confusing if a baby was born but wasn’t made a citizen in their country of birth or the country that the baby’s parents are citizens of. nationality isn’t exactly a choice. i don’t see that as a problem either. plus, there are many different situations in which someone could almost automatically have dual citizenship, multiple, or become a citizen of another country under certain circumstances. in my opinion, patriotism doesn’t just happen when someone is born in a certain country. it doesn’t mean that everyone is going to be proud of their country or want to celebrate it. if one is born on American soil, generally, yes they are automatically considered an American citizen. the child does not need to first learn about the language, culture, and concept of a country before they make the choice to be a citizen. i don’t see how some of that makes any sense  

[Guest]

22 minutes ago, S.. said:

Again, you wrote "Humans are not magically separate from nature."

I never said that, so you are passively suggesting that humans are separate from nature.

If I say that you are not a murderer, then I am passively suggesting that you are murderer through the association.

If that's how you use language then you should expect to be misunderstood a lot. I wasn't passively suggesting anything, I was stating a fact.

 

24 minutes ago, S.. said:

Of course they aren't German. They only know the word. They weren't born in "Germany" to begin with.

Yes she is, she was born in the country called Germany, her passport says she is German, it is a fact.

 

I can't be bothered to talk about this any more so lets me just summarise my opinion by saying that I think you are talking a load of rubbish. You are of course entitled to your factually incorrect opinions.

[S..]

Spoiler

 

1 hour ago, kenny. said:

i think that i don’t entirely understand the “issue” here and how countries don’t exist.

 

it would be insanely confusing if a baby was born but wasn’t made a citizen in their country of birth or the country that the baby’s parents are citizens of.

 

nationalityisn’t exactly a choice. i don’t see that as a problem either.

 

it doesn’t mean that everyone is going to be proud of their country or want to celebrate it.

 

the child does not need to first learn about the language, culture, and concept of a country before they make the choice to be a citizen. i don’t see how some of that makes any sense  

I never said that countries do not exist. It is insanely confusing that people ignore a child's national association and culture in favor of a birth mark. Nationality is a choice and it is a problem when you are put into prison for choosing to represent your country rather than an assigned one. A child cannot choose a nation if they have no concept of nations.

 

1 hour ago, theV0ID said:

If that's how you use language then you should expect to be misunderstood a lot. I wasn't passively suggesting anything, I was stating a fact.

 

Yes she is, she was born in the country called Germany, her passport says she is German, it is a fact.

 

I can't be bothered to talk about this any more so lets me just summarise my opinion by saying that I think you are talking a load of rubbish. You are of course entitled to your factually incorrect opinions.

Stating a fact that has not been brought up anywhere else just confused me. I mean no disrespect. 

 

Telling her she is German and printing a passport that says she is German does not make it so. It is ultimately her choice as to whether she actually represents Germany. This is because she was born naturally and has an inallienable right to her own life, her own liberty, and her own pursuit of happiness.

[kenny.]

1 hour ago, S.. said:

Nationality is a choice and it is a problem when you are put into prison for choosing to represent your country rather than an assigned one. A child cannot choose a nation if they have no concept of nations.

and i think that is just where we would simply have to agree to disagree. nationality is not a choice at all. one is born a certain nationality, and generally stays that way. it is my belief that people don’t have the right to choose a nation, so a concept of nations isn’t necessary as a child. who cares if it doesn’t seem absolutely natural, not much is. a child doesn’t need to wait to understand the concept of nations before deciding on which they like best or would want to represent. we aren’t really “assigned” a nationality, we are a nationality.

[S..]

15 minutes ago, kenny. said:

and i think that is just where we would simply have to agree to disagree. nationality is not a choice at all. one is born a certain nationality, and generally stays that way. it is my belief that people don’t have the right to choose a nation, so a concept of nations isn’t necessary as a child. who cares if it doesn’t seem absolutely natural, not much is. a child doesn’t need to wait to understand the concept of nations before deciding on which they like best or would want to represent. we aren’t really “assigned” a nationality, we are a nationality.

Existing nations have existing languages and cultural norms. People are assigned a nation, because any language or culture that they grow up in or know is completely erased in favor of a birth assoction that requires compliance under threat. People are not born a nationality when they exit a womb. That makes no more sense than they are born speaking English. 

[LeChat]

I've tried reading this thread, but I still am confused. I don't understand what the topic is really about (e.g. children with South American parents being born in the U.S., and growing up a little different from children whose parents/families were already in the U.S. for generations?)

 

If so, the government already acknowledges that there's a cultural difference between them (i.e. being a second-generation American, with at least one foreign-born parent--and growing up with their parents' culture--compared to, say, children whose families have been here for several generations.)

 

If a person was born in a different country and moves to another, they're not required to become a citizen of the new country they now live in, if they don't want to (I have a relative who decided to do that). One just has to fill out paperwork which says they're allowed to live and work there, but aren't considered a citizen of that country (e.g. they aren't allowed to vote in elections).

 

Some countries also allow a person who was born in a different country from their parents or grandparents, to have dual citizenship from the country of their parent's/grandparent's birth, be allowed to live and work there.

 

If this is about travelling/visiting another country, well, it's important for governments to know who a person is, how old they are, whether or not they have a criminal record, etc. It also helps them be able to notify their family members, in case something happens to them, abroad. There's also the issue of child-trafficking (which is worldwide), where children are taken/sold from their families, and forced by traffickers into prostitution. If everyone in the world didn't have a birth certificate or paperwork identifying them, that would definitely make it easier for traffickers to take more children, young adults, etc. to other countries.

 

There have also been incidences of deceased citizens having their identities stolen by criminals (i.e. using their name and social security number, pretending to be them, in order to get away with criminal activities that they don't want to be identified and punished for).

 

Sure, there have been times where I liked fantasizing about how great it'd be if moving abroad were easier, without all the paperwork and fees, but I understand and respect countries who have those requirements.

 

 

[Anthracite_Impreza]

I was born in England, therefore I am English. It's pretty simple really.

[S..]

This thread is about the fact that people are not born in countries. That people are associated to countries after birth.

 

People are told that they are born in a country when they are not. People are required to represent a country, language, and culture according to the country that they are told to be born in ... Or risk going to prison when they attempt to travel freely.

 

People are born naturally and are associated to countries after birth. They are not born in countries, so the problem lies with people conducting interactions with each other on the basis that somebody's geographical time as a baby somewhere means that the must represent a nation, culture language etc of whatever people name a geographical location.

 

This means that people's identites are erased or ignored if they do not match the nation that is being associated to the person by force.

[Anthracite_Impreza]

3 minutes ago, S.. said:

They are not born in countries

But they are, practically speaking. That's how the system works whether you like it or not.

 

3 minutes ago, S.. said:

so the problem lies with people conducting interactions with each other on the basis that somebody's geographical time as a baby somewhere means that the must represent a nation, culture language etc of whatever people name a geographical location.

I don't like tea, refuse to eat meat, have never liked fish and chips, am anti-monarchy, have all my natural teeth, despise London and don't even like Minis. I don't represent the stereotype of England at all, yet I've never been threatened or felt like I had to pretend or I'd be arrested. Maybe it's like that in some countries, but not most.

[S..]

10 minutes ago, Anthracite_Impreza said:

But they are, practically speaking. That's how the system works whether you like it or not.

 

 I don't represent the stereotype of England at all, yet I've never been threatened or felt like I had to pretend or I'd be arrested. Maybe it's like that in some countries, but not most.

People are not born in countries. There is no system that can have one's birth. You claim to represent England because you say that your birth is in a country. Why should you feel threatened if you claim to be born in a country? You are allowed travel, speak the language of the country, agree upon the label, and are agreed with others on birthright or bloodline national determination.

[Anthracite_Impreza]

12 minutes ago, S.. said:

People are not born in countries. There is no system that can have one's birth. You claim to represent England because you say that your birth is in a country. Why should you feel threatened if you claim to be born in a country? You are allowed travel, speak the language of the country, agree upon the label, and are agreed with others on birthright or bloodline national determination.

You're born in England to at least one English parent, you're English. Of course England didn't birth me, but I'm still English solely cos I was born here. How is that not "born in a country" in any practical sense? I don't claim to represent England, you said that by being born somewhere you're expected to represent it and can face discrimination if you don't.

[LeChat]

Is this about someone who was arrested, while trying to travel?

 

Just because a person was born in a country, and has lived there their entire lives, doesn't necessarily, automatically mean that they feel safe (e.g. LGBT+ people in certain states/parts of the U.S.)

 

I did grow up in fear, in the country of my birth, because--due to my family moving to different states/parts of the country--locals could tell that I wasn't originally from there and not all were nice about it (e.g. being laughed, gossiped about by local kids and bullied/teased by classmates). I'd worry I'd be harassed/attacked in public--especially because of residents who own guns--after reading locals write in to the local newspaper about how much they didn't like people who weren't born in the same state as they were, who weren't Christian, Republican, and anti-LGBT+ like they were.

[S..]

 

1 hour ago, Anthracite_Impreza said:

... I'm still English solely cos I was born here. How is that not "born in a country" in any practical sense? ...

 

England is national label that you learned about later in life. You were not born there. You were born in nature of your parents and then a national label was applied to you. If you do not claim to be English and attempt to travel then you are placed in prison or sent to the area called England until you comply.

 

[S..]

34 minutes ago, InquisitivePhilosopher said:

Is this about someone who was arrested, while trying to travel?

 

Just because a person was born in a country, and has lived there their entire lives, doesn't necessarily, automatically mean that they feel safe (e.g. LGBT+ people in certain states/parts of the U.S.)

 

I did grow up in fear, in the country of my birth, because--due to my family moving to different states/parts of the country--locals could tell that I wasn't originally from there and not all were nice about that (e.g. being laughed, gossiped about by local kids and bullied/teased by classmates). I'd worry I'd be harassed/attacked in public--especially because of residents who own guns--after reading locals write in to the local newspaper about how much they didn't like people who weren't born in the same state as they were, who weren't Christian, Republican, and anti-LGBT+ like they were.

I misread this as I was sitting down. Harmful discrimination in any form is a bad thing. The "not being from there" mentality can be a harmful one and that is exactly what this is about. In your case it was happening on a city or state level. This is about that, but then on a global scale, with people traveling from country to country. In this case, the issue is that people aren't even born in the countries to begin with, so they are coming from the same place:

 

However, the "birthplace" label is being used specifically to target and divde people.

[S..]

1 minute ago, Moonman said:

Right, I'm gonna blow up a building and murder hundreds of people and claim that I'm Italian. I don't speak Italian. I've never been to Italy. The only Italian I know is Penne, Fusilli, Spaghetti, Tagliatelle and Paolo Maldini. But fuck it, I've made up my mind, Italy can take responsibility for my radical behaviour!

Right, so you admit to blowing up a building and you're going to jail where you blew up the building.

If Italy wants a piece of you for disgracing the country, then they'll have a slice as well.

[Anthracite_Impreza]

Yeah I don't think we're gonna agree on this. I'm a practical person; I was born English/I was born in England/I'm an English citizen are synonyms to me. I don't really care though, it's not somet I feel about strongly.