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question about the terms "fagg*t" and "dy*e" and other offensive slang


Blissful_Sins

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Hello everyone!

 

So I have a question about these terms, it came up in a conversation between me and a friend of mine.

My friend believes that since I'm homoromantic and not homosexual, I can't address a gay friend as "fagg*t" and wanted to know what you guys think?

She also believes (but I agree on this) that gay men can't say "dy*e" to lesbians and vice versa so I wanted to know everyone's input on this

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I'd say that neither these terms should be used to address others, both are slur terms. End of discussion in my opinion. 

 

 

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I don't think there is a set law for this stuff. I think it is better to err on the side of caution though, so if you're not sure, probably don't.

 

Actually, I think the most important factor is, is the person you're saying it to ok with being adressed that way by you? If you know they are, it is fine. If you've not established that it is ok, then probably err on the side of caution, regardless of your own identity.

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RoseGoesToYale

I personally find both still very offensive and don't know anybody who's gay/lesbian who's fine with being addressed with them, or even uses them to describe themselves. I don't think they were as widely reclaimed the way "queer" was, so I would always assume err on the side of caution and not use either of them anyway, and if someone wants to call themself that, that's their business.

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I am not a native english speaker so I cannot say for sure. My general impression is that I've seen d*ke used as a reclaimed word, but not f*ggot the same way. That is why this stuff in unclear imo. Some people want to reclaim. Others will find any use offensive, regardless of how you identify yourself. So I think the safest bet is to just know what the person you speak to thinks about these words before you use it to describe them.

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As far as I am concerned homoromantic asexuals are fully gay or lesbian for all purposes except dating compatibility. If you are dating someone of the same sex nobody knows whether you are having sex or not, so you will experience the same oppression either way. So I think it is fine to reclaim an antigay slur to refer to yourself if you feel comfortable and want to. Not every gay man feels comfortable reclaiming that slur, so it's not a good idea to use reclaimed slurs on others without their consent, even within the gay community.

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Alejandrogynous

If you're homoromantic, as in wanting and having relationships with same-gendered people, then you're no less gay than a sexual gay person. Reclaimed slurs are tricky regardless, best used with caution and only around people you know are okay with it, but that has nothing to do with your being asexual.

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I've never really liked reclaiming words - because it creates an unnecessary us vs. them situation , where some people can say things that would be deeply offensive if others said them.  The boundaries of groups are never that solid, so its setting up traps. 

 

As an example, I don't make a big deal of my orientation - the only people who need to know are potential intimate partners.  So if I'm in a group of openly gay men - if one of they used an offensive term - do I?  Do I have to explain my sexuality first and see if it meets certain criteria? 

 

I think if words are bad they should be bad for everyone.

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Guys the OP is talking about calling SOMEONE ELSE a f*ggot, not himself 😧 No it's absolutely not okay to call someone a f*ggot even if they're your friend, UNLESS they ask you to. 

 

I guess a lot of people who answered must have misread the original question because some people are like "oh yeah you're gay so why not? Just be careful" (a lot of sexual people would actually disagree that homoromantic is the same as 'gay' so that leads to even more issues). But the OP is talking about calling ANOTHER PERSON that slur, not themselves Y_Y

 

It's absolutely not okay, and no asexuals don't have the right to 'reclaim' it or whatever unless they want to aim it at themselves. The term started because a f*ggot used to mean a piece of wood for burning, and gay people were deemed by some people to be ...well, something that should be burned alive. That's one of the reasons why the term is so nasty Y_Y

 

Never call someone else a slur. And remember many gay people wouldn't actually consider an asexual gay. It's like if someone with white skin says "I have black ancestors that means I can call black people the N word cause they say it to each other" ...JUST DON'T DO IT!!!!!

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There is no point in "reclaiming" words that are offensive in order to use them on other people.  That's not reclaiming; that's just calling people offensive words.  

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As others have said, that’s just not okay regardless of your orientation.

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I disagree with others in it being bad no matter what. I'm a big proponent of reclaimed language, though both people need to be okay with it. I've known gay people to use the F***** word with others of all orientations other than straight, so it's up to whoever to decide if it's offensive and to bring it up with them. D*** I've heard mostly between lesbians and gay men and not anyone outside of those communities, so I would only use it around those you're sure are okay with you calling them that.

 

Basicaly, be careful. If someone expresses offense then withdraw and apologize. And possibly to avoid them getting aggressively offended, refer to yourself as the slur to try and show you didn't mean it offensively.

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5 hours ago, SithGirl said:

I disagree with others in it being bad no matter what. I'm a big proponent of reclaimed language, though both people need to be okay with it. I've known gay people to use the F***** word with others of all orientations other than straight, so it's up to whoever to decide if it's offensive and to bring it up with them. D*** I've heard mostly between lesbians and gay men and not anyone outside of those communities, so I would only use it around those you're sure are okay with you calling them that.

 

Basicaly, be careful. If someone expresses offense then withdraw and apologize. And possibly to avoid them getting aggressively offended, refer to yourself as the slur to try and show you didn't mean it offensively.

Xs using it among other Xs is very different from Xs using it to Ys.  

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Just now, Sally said:

Xs using it among other Xs is very different from Xs using it to Ys.  

I guess I forgot to clarify that in my post, but yes, I agree.  However, I would consider a homoromantic person to be "gay enough" to be included in that grouping. 

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On 9/17/2019 at 7:02 PM, SithGirl said:

I guess I forgot to clarify that in my post, but yes, I agree.  However, I would consider a homoromantic person to be "gay enough" to be included in that grouping. 

Just because you would though, that sadly doesn't mean everyone else would consider a homoromantic ace gay enough, especially when it comes to a word like f*ggot which to many is as bad as the N word (because the F word comes from when people wanted to burn gay people alive) 😕

 

 I've seen many homoromantic aces on AVEN upset over the years because people in their local LGBT+ groups said they shouldn't call themselves gay or lesbian if they don't actually want a sexual relationship with people of the same gender. That's because the reason gays and lesbians were persecuted for centuries was BECAUSE of who they desired sexual intimacy with. If they had no interest in sex with those they love they probably wouldn't have been tortured and executed etc because it was the sex that was deemed the 'crime'.

 

So for a very, very harmful and offensive word like f*ggot you have to be soooooo careful just in case the gay person you're directing it at doesn't actually deem you 'gay' (because you have no desire to actually have sex with those you love, which was the reason for the persecution they experienced for so many centuries). It would be like me (a person with very white skin) calling a black person the N word just because I have some African American ancestry or something, I'd get my butt kicked!! :o

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23 minutes ago, Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?) said:

That's because the reason gays and lesbians were persecuted for centuries was BECAUSE of who they desired sexual intimacy with. If they had no interest in sex with those they love they probably wouldn't have been tortured and executed etc because it was the sex that was deemed the 'crime'.

 

Exactly.  The revulsion felt by some people at the thought of homosexuality is not because of their romantic feelings toward someone of the same gender; it's the picture of having sex with someone of the same gender.  I think it's pretty natural, therefore, for some homosexuals to feel that homoromantic aces are not really "gay'.  

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1 hour ago, Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?) said:

Just because you would though, that sadly doesn't mean everyone else would consider a homoromantic ace gay enough, especially when it comes to a word like f*ggot which to many is as bad as the N word (because the F word comes from when people wanted to burn gay people alive) 😕

 

 I've seen many homoromantic aces on AVEN upset over the years because people in their local LGBT+ groups said they shouldn't call themselves gay or lesbian if they don't actually want a sexual relationship with people of the same gender. That's because the reason gays and lesbians were persecuted for centuries was BECAUSE of who they desired sexual intimacy with. If they had no interest in sex with those they love they probably wouldn't have been tortured and executed etc because it was the sex that was deemed the 'crime'.

 

So for a very, very harmful and offensive word like f*ggot you have to be soooooo careful just in case the gay person you're directing it at doesn't actually deem you 'gay' (because you have no desire to actually have sex with those you love, which was the reason for the persecution they experienced for so many centuries). It would be like me (a person with very white skin) calling a black person the N word just because I have some African American ancestry or something, I'd get my butt kicked!! :o

For the most part I agree with you, which is why I specified in my original post about backing off if the person is offended. I disagree about the white-ness comparison because if you're not comfortable identifying yourself by the N word, you probably shouldn't be using it.

 

But, an example of something opposite, I had an Asian friend who had a HUGE problem about saying the N word. He grew up in the ghetto surrounded by all sorts of skin colors except white and it was just what everyone called each other. You weren't bros or friends, you were Ns. He got in trouble with that when he went to college and wasn't around his friends anymore and was suddenly part of the out-group not allowed to use that word. It wasn't blackness that gave him permission, it was his identity as a member of the in-group. 

 

If you're not in their in-group, you can't use the word. But you won't know if you're considered part of the in-group without other indicators. 

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I don't think gay people get persecuted just for the sexuality part. Even public displays of affection can be targeted. And I don't think that's just because some people think PDA can lead to sex. I think some people don't even like romantic gestures between 2 people of the same gender (I know for sure that in some places 2 guys better not be seen being too "touchy-feely" with each other, even if it's not romantic). And how would they know if a same gender couple were sexual or not? But since I consider myself heteromantic (or at least aesthetically attracted to women) it's not for me to say.

 

Back to the main topic though, I wouldn't use those words myself. I know how hurtful they can be (including from some direct experience as a target when I was younger).

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4 hours ago, daveb said:

I don't think gay people get persecuted just for the sexuality part. Even public displays of affection can be targeted. And I don't think that's just because some people think PDA can lead to sex. I think some people don't even like romantic gestures between 2 people of the same gender (I know for sure that in some places 2 guys better not be seen being too "touchy-feely" with each other, even if it's not romantic). And how would they know if a same gender couple were sexual or not?

In America, a same gender couple who were even a little touchy-feely or romantic would be assumed to be gay.   Straight guys, especially, don't make romantic gestures toward each other.  So whether or not that particular couple is having sex with each other, if they're persecuted, it's because it's assumed they are.  

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Oops that what I get for being inactive, 500 posts to read

 

On 9/16/2019 at 8:05 AM, Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?) said:

The term started because a f*ggot used to mean a piece of wood for burning, and gay people were deemed by some people to be ...well, something that should be burned alive.

I like this btw

 

On 9/16/2019 at 8:05 AM, Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?) said:

Guys the OP is talking about calling SOMEONE ELSE a f*ggot, not himself 😧 No it's absolutely not okay to call someone a f*ggot even if they're your friend, UNLESS they ask you to. 

Yes that's right and oops maybe I should've clarified, but as you know I'm ace and my homosexual (not romantic, well- romantic too) friends also call me f*g, I don't mind. Weird "no consent" shit but I've also called them that and they didn't seem to mind it, but I did have a debate with an aro hetero friend which is why I asked and I think??? these were helpful- Omg forums are like sense8 clusters, everyone has a different opinion but I like it hahaha

Also the Arabic version of f*ggot sounds different which is why we kinda say it I suppose

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6 minutes ago, Blissful_Sins said:

Oops that what I get for being inactive, 500 posts to read

 

I like this btw

 

Yes that's right and oops maybe I should've clarified, but as you know I'm ace and my homosexual (not romantic, well- romantic too) friends also call me f*g, I don't mind. Weird "no consent" shit but I've also called them that and they didn't seem to mind it, but I did have a debate with an aro hetero friend which is why I asked and I think??? these were helpful- Omg forums are like sense8 clusters, everyone has a different opinion but I like it hahaha

Also the Arabic version of f*ggot sounds different which is why we kinda say it I suppose

Here in NZ, f*g and f*ggot are a bit different. F*g is like you're joking around being silly (and is also the term for a smoke) but f*ggot is like this massive no-no, like the N word. It's interesting how different words are less or more offensive depending on which country you're in!! Like in Australia c*nt is just a regular word pretty much, but in a lot of other places its super offensive!!

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