Psychological/ mental illness in the LGBTIA community? And some advice needed, please.

[Manticone]

Hi guys, so I am wondering how many of you have had an issue with people in the LGBTIA community becoming incredibly hostile towards non-LGBTIA people or deliberately lying about situations to milk sympathy from others?

 

So this is what happened: a friend on FB posted a message her friend had written about a movie with a violent scene (featuring a beating of a gay man) and went on a bit of a rant saying it was pointless and was getting very upset. Myself (I am ace, as my profile indicates) and another mutual friend (not part of the LGBTIA community but an ally) explained that the scene was actually part of the original novel because it was trying to raise awareness about a real life hate crime/ murder of a gay man in 1984, named Charlie Owens. 

 

Well, let me tell you - this guy (he is gay, and it is very important to him - as it everyone's orientation to him, which I will explain in a moment) - went ballistic. He got so angry just because I (an ace) and a another woman explained why the scene was included. We did not, for the record, say that it wasn't or could not be triggering. Different people have different triggers. 

 

But he immediately started in on the other woman, and called her "ass garbage" and he told me I was "nothing" and called me "massah!" when I defended myself (yes, he mocked people who had been kept as slaves. Not a very stable or emotionally mature person). He even said we were "conditional allies" and went on this giant rant about how our opinions do not matter at all (even though we just provided facts about a book Stephen King wrote) because we were not gay or in the LGBTIA community.

 

So I let it drop that I was, if you included aces. (He said "why don't you heterosplain something to me, Massah?" Very dramatic guy XD). Anyway, amid his swearing and general tantruming he learned that I called myself an ally because I have had people who were gay outright tell me that aces aren't REALLY part of the LGBT group (which very few have done, but enough that if I do not know someone well - calling myself an ally is all they really need to know. And even those who did were not as prone to swearing as this guy). Suddenly he became a little better in his writings to me (stopped it with the swears) but carried on re: attacking this other woman, who is heterosexual. 

 

Now: this woman did NOTHING wrong. I didn't either - I just stood up in support of her when this guy went nuts. 

 

Anyway, I sent my friend R (who is ftm trans and Bisexual) a PM about this guy's AWFUL behaviour and how he needs to be called out on it...because almost everyone on R's page is now trans/ gay or bi (R is transitioning and so has reached out to many trans people) but one thing I have noticed is that OFTEN they speak about how often they are victimized, and I am sure that happens a lot - but after this other man (K) went on a total rant and attacked people who simply had a point to make about a film, he seemed to engage more civilly (me). R later wrote me back and said he wasn't going to read my messages because the whole thing was stressing him out. But I have REGULARLY seen R defend people and get in the midst of online fights when he's defending the LGBT(IA).

 

So then I realized that a disproportionate amount of the time R comes to the defense of all people in the community, and always, always assumes the honesty of everything they tell him. In this case, R (my friend) he could see clearly that this other person had been hostile to me and some of R's other longstanding friends. But he doesn't want to get involved because it stresses him? It confuses me, because I have seen R call people psychopaths to their face and get very angry.

 

I realized it's because R feels conflicted. He's used to defending a member of the LGBTIA community, and when one is attacking another and then stops (upon learning I am ace) but continues attacking a person who is heterosexual for the SAME reason he was attacking me (and now longer is)…then he is the one acting in an unfair fashion.

 

Anyway, I told the person who was swearing and behaving really awfully (just outright mocking myself and the other woman, Tara) that it seemed like he had had a lot of rejection and was holding onto a lot of anger, and that no one had meant to cause him pain, but he cannot swear and attack people like that and expect most people to engage with him for any extended period of time.

 

I later pm'd him a link for a show he had shown interest in (he seriously went through this calming down process, and kept responding to me after he learned I was ace...) and then when I went to PM me, it linked to his site and he had started a BRAND NEW post (I am not his mutual friend) about "conditional allies" and was creating a fake scenario whereby he had been attacked by non-gay people and his online friends were ranting and talking about how people like 'us' were "psychopaths" and so on.

 

I could not believe how he had actually lied about so many things to create this false world in which he is a victim/ to garner sympathy. Especially since he had gone down this fake "calming down" ritual and had seemed to be cool with me and started engaging with me as if he felt ashamed for acting so immaturely.  

 

Now here is my question. If my trans friend ignores this (and I have seen these attacks happen more often on his page, and since I generally keep out of it - I used to through that bigoted people were attacking him or others for being trans etc.) but going back over the posts - I see that in every case on R's page - it has been those in the LGBTIA members who have been attacking those who are deemed heterosexual (and I say DEEMED because they assessed me to be heterosexual, too, and this one man only calmed down when learning that I am not)...but if R totally ignores this/ let's this man continue to lie about his heterosexual friend Tara (and myself) and turns a blind eye to this - would you take that as a sign to give up on the friendship?

 

I value honesty, loyalty, and integrity in a friendship. I feel like if I have not done something wrong and get attacked by a person who is taking out their aggression on me because they think I am straight - and then go on to create a fictional scenario because they think others will never find out and use it to further attack another innocent person (Tara) - that this is abhorrent behaviour. You don't just attack other people to raise greater awareness to your plight - is what I want to say to my friend R. 

 

But when my friend who I have known for half a decade doesn't even defend me, and says things like "I don't want to talk about this. It's stressing me out!" or insinuates to let the matter drop when his heterosexual friend is still getting attacked online for doing NOTHING wrong - would you end a friendship over that? 

 

I am so disgusted right now. And angered. There are people in the LGBTIA community that are victims of hate crimes and have been hurt horribly, and then one with major emotional issues creates a fake situation and posts about it (not realizing I would click on his profile to PM him) making HIMSELF out to be victim after saying awful things to others who did not say anything nasty to him but disagreed with him about a plot point in a movie...then I see red. 

 

Because people who lie about issues like this - they weaken the entire LGBTIA community. When others meet enough people who lie to garner sympathy, they can quickly cast doubt on other people in the LGBTIA community. But what is worse, maybe, than this one immature man pulling this - is that I feel really let down by my friend, R. He's not even letting this other guy (who he has known for a short period of time) to not talk to me or his other friends like that. He's letting this person spew abuse. 

 

And honestly? I don't feel like a person is or can be my friend if they lie about me, but also if they turn a blind eye to others who do cruel things or treat me badly. If someone was attacking R, I would have run to his defense, and I just feel so incredibly disappointed right now.

 

Also, Tara - I feel sorry for her. She ended up sort of trying to apologize, and I basically came online and pointed out she shouldn't HAVE to apologize. She did not do anything wrong, merely disagreed with a gay man about her perspective on a film's plot point. Everyone is entitled to their own personal view about a film, the symbolism, and to learn and express trivia or the history of why something is included. What they are not entitled to is...attacking a person or mocking them for holding a different opinion. 

 

So a) have you guys ever found yourself in the presence of someone in the LGTBIA community who has outright lied about a situation to garner sympathy for the fact that they are gay, to the point of creating fake scenarios? and b) would you pull back from your trans friend who ignores it when you or other friends are attacked by his trans/ gay friends (I get SLIGHTLY more 'sympathy' from them for being ace. How screwed up is that?) and refuses to call his trans/ gay/ bi friends on it because well - he's trans, too, like THAT justifies mocking and verbally assaulting heterosexual people (or anyone, really)?

 

If someone doesn't have my back, and thinks it's okay to let someone mock me (using racist ways to do it, too! FFS - everything this guy did was awful. He might be gay, but he looks for ways to hurt others - just mocking the slave trade itself leaves a sour taste in my mouth) because they don't want to stand up for a NON trans/ gay friend, would you call it quits on that 'friendship'?

 

I feel like if I do, that person will say "look, they gave up on me because I am trans" - but what this comes down to is integrity. Standing up for others because they are being unfairly attacked. Not just because you share the same sexual orientation/ gender identity as them. But I also do not know if I am overreacting because I LOATHE it when people misrepresent the truth. When they point blank go out and lie and then get other people angry to the point that a whole bunch of people who I don't know say that I, or Tara, sound like "psychopaths" for having - what? - the audacity to give our own input about a film that differed from what this man thought?

 

And it concerns me personally, too. There are already people around me who have mocked the notion of asexuality (I luckily enough kept my mouth closed about my own orientation BEFORE this) or who have insinuated that homosexuality is a sin (I have heard this a lot from family members when younger) and so on. I almost feel like - as a member of the ACE community - I need to stand up for myself, but with integrity. Because lying like this person? It weakens our stance, our position. It makes us look worse, and part of the issue - the feelings of not fitting in or even bullied - come from rejection, and I get that. But lying? And attacking heterosexual allies?

 

I felt like cyber slapping him. We need our allies, and we need people who feel at ease to open up and discuss their opinions even if they differ from ours. A different opinion regarding music, or movies (provided it's not supportive of abuse or something cruel obviously) is no need for this level of animosity, but I am seeing this greater split between a lot of people in the LGBTIA community lately, and then today an article came in stating that millennials (my generation) are showing LESS support for people in the LGBTIA community, and that saddens me too. 

 

But mostly I needed to rant. Because I do not support a position because a person is ace/aro like me, or gay, or heterosexual, or Caucasian, or a runner or any other silly thing. But because I think the position makes logical sense and I agree with what it states. But to see people outright attacking non-LGBTIA and then ganging up on them because they feel they CAN without getting in trouble for it? It makes me see red. It takes a situation that for a long time was reversed and flips it around - but it's still an injustice.

 

Ok. Thanks for letting me rant. I'm Irish heritage and apparently...loquacious. 

 

 

[Chloe88]

3 minutes ago, Manticone said:

I have had people who were gay outright tell me that aces aren't REALLY part of the LGBT group

Yes. I've had that told to me.

 

The Ace / LGBT relationship is a  one-sided unrequited one where some aces are falling over to say they are part of LGBT but LGBT aren't having it!

 

We're not LGBT.

[Manticone]

Oh no, the computer just deleted one of my comments.

 

Anyway, I am not saying all LGBT do this. And I am fine with a person who is gay or bi including me in the LGBT community (I am not heterosexual or heteromantic and have never had a boyfriend, nor any interest in having one - although I wish I could have a sort of best, best friend that would be as close as some of friends seem to be with their boyfriends or husbands, if that makes sense? Like Sherlock (if we imagine he's aro-ace). A person to spend time with, learn about in detail, be best friends in the true sense that they always have your back and share enough interests and passions that you learn and grow when you are with them, and they make you feel completely at peace - you can express yourself without fear of rejection or mockery. So that SOUNDS like hetero-romantic, and yet - I have no interest in romance, more like...meh, getting OFFTOPIC) or not including me, but I am not part of the heteronormative world, even though people assume I am simply because I am female, dress in a relatively feminine style etc. 

 

And this guy - who was so awful to the heterosexual woman - actually told me that being aro/ace was something "awesome" about me - which was such a flip from his comment shortly before where he said I was worth "nothing" that all I could think of was..."this guy is REALLY unstable if I go from being nothing to awesome simply because he thinks I am part of the same community as him. THAT'S INSANITY."

 

It made me think a lot about mental illness in the LGBTIA community. How bullying, rejection, a lack of support from parents or extended family etc. naturally leads to anger issues and even shame and self-loathing. And I have dealt and struggled with self-hatred and being harsh with myself for a long time, and depression - but I ALWAYS tried to speak honestly. In fact, I get a little OCD about it and am more likely to go quiet if I am in a position whereby I feel overwhelmed, but I don't remember actively - knowingly - ever having lied. Have I? Apparently, people say everyone does, but I can not RECALL ever having done so. Spoken mistruths without knowing better (passing on bad info) - yes.  (I am getting tested to see if I am neuroatypical/ ASD in the next while, but let's just say my problem is that I am TOO blunt and really stubborn about things being honest. I cannot tell you how many times people got mad at me for saying things that I should have 'hidden' but didn't know to do so.) - but lying to garner sympathy? And not treating me as worthy of defending because I am not gay or trans or...? (That is what it appears to be, again for reasons mentioned in the previous post).

 

Anyway, thanks for letting me rant. I only have a few friends and most do not live in my province (since I moved a few years ago) and when these issues come up I really do not have a lot of people to confide in. In fact, I feel sometimes like I can't really confide in anyone. My sister has major anxiety disorder and depression, my mum is sick with cancer, and I do not really have any friends that I know well enough to talk to when I feel sort of angry or sad. I also am seen as eccentric and quirky, and I almost don't LIKE confiding in people when I feel weak or tired because I just want to seem more like everyone else? Not too sensitive, not too intense, not such a worry wart, not so focused on making sure the correct version of events is known, and so on. 

 

So thank you to anyone who reads.

 

 

[Manticone]

(I meant "passing on bad info" when I thought it was accurate. Not when it was known to be inaccurate. Which would be lying. Ok. Shutting up now. O.o)

 

((You probably all realized what I meant. I am being neurotic.))

[Homer]

(Please don't let this turn into the umpteenth "are asexuals LGBT+" debate"...)

[- Saph -]

I hope that it felt good to let it all out 🙂 I just wanted to react on the gay guys' initial hateful overreaction. Art is about telling a story and the way you do it. Morality is about the connotation (positive or negative) given to these facts.

 

Sexual orientation has noting to do with being a good person: there are jerks and frustrated people everywhere. Also if you have a lot of preconceptions you may not really hear and understand what others are saying. It is even more awkward for allies and people (slightly) out of the community who may not have tact or the right wording.

 

Also I have seen people from specific communities feeling ostracized while everyone else was being open, peaceful and chill to them. This is a pity because they are making themselves unhappy, inventing problems. I try to be nice and hope that they will calm down after venting a little bit.

 

[SithLord]

Ignoring the "are aces LGBT+" bit.

 

Yes, I definitely see some in the LGBT+ community attacking anyone and anything they view as members of the out-group as a sort of reverse discrimination thing. Like "You made my life hell, so I'm going to make your life hell" even if they weren't personally responsible for it.

 

An example, the drama with Rachel Oates and EssenceOfThought recently. About a member of the Trans community attacking her and calling her transphobic, a sewer-mouth, etc. despite her taking their advice and removing herself from the conversation. Most people drew the line at them saying people like her and Rationality Rules (trigger warning) 

Spoiler

should "do this world a favor and exit it"

but they were saying some pretty shitty things before even that point. 

 

I don't like people who take their identity as a minority group and use that as an excuse to be assholes. This can be seen with race as well.

[LeChat]

I'm sorry those awful things were said to you and your friend.

 

It sounds to me as though the gay guy might've been upset or triggered by the violent scene, as I've heard that some people in the gay community don't like movies where gay people are beaten, that they'd tired of movies that have tragic endings for gay people because, historically, that's what movies did, years ago, as a subtle way of portraying to the audience that being gay was a bad thing, resulting in bad things would automatically happen to a gay person.

 

So, I wonder whether he might've lashed out because of that.

[Manticone]

Hi InquisitivePhilosopher - I had actually posted why the author had written the scene (to raise awareness to a hate crime). This guy simply got angry that anyone would say he didn't have the full story or hadn't done his research. 

 

Also,  no - this post isn't about "do other LGBT members think aces should be included?" (in reference to an earlier poster) - but more "if someone lets an LGBT member bully you and another friend because they identify more with being gay or trans, and see your aceness as 'less than' - is that reason enough to sever the relationship?"

 

Sort of like...when do you think to yourself..."this isn't a friendship. I NEED to let this person go"? - and I am asking because I can be annoyingly idealistic and want Really Good Friends, and in turn I want to be a Really Good Friend to my Really Good Friends. But I am also tired because so many people seem to gossip and not defend their friends.

 

So that's more what the post is about. When do you let go? 

 

I guess that is impossible for anyone to address and this is silly. But just...not sure if my anger and upset is typical. 

[PastelBread]

Man, that sounds like a bad situation all around. It really sounds like this guy is toxic. 

If you have not approached him for it, I suggest you do so. If you have and the man has not changed, remove him from your life. This anger is not necessary and you deserve to be happy. :)

I hope you figure things out. You deserve the best.