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Lee ✧

Michigan's Anti-Vaping Ban

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Lee ✧

As I've mentioned, I'm from Michigan. Our governor recently passed a ban that prohibits flavored vape products in an attempt to "protect youth." There's an article about it published here if you want more information. I was curious to hear everyone's thoughts about this.

 

It doesn't affect me, personally. My boyfriend vapes, but I don't. My roommate does as well, and she's told me that the process of breathing in and out helps calm her anxiety. I know that doesn't excuse the fact that a lot of the oils offered, even while considered "healthier" than cigarettes, still contain nicotine and are thus still harmful to your body, so I understand where Whitmer is coming from, but I disagree with the decision. As Prohibition has taught us, banning certain substances, no matter how detrimental to our health they may be, is going to cause a huge economic backlash. Shops will close, thousands of jobs will be lost, and a huge black market for flavored vaping products is going to bubble up under the surface of the state's economy. Not to mention, Whitmer failed to acknowledge that while flavored vaping products may have made vaping more appealing to a younger audience, that doesn't change the millions of teenagers and young adults that have turned to smoking in the past as a means to alleviate their pains, physical or otherwise. Do you know why smoking tobacco isn't illegal? Of course you do. It's all about the money. Banning tobacco products would bankrupt the country overnight.

 

Do I approve of vaping? Not really. I've thought about getting into it but decided against it. I just think that it should be a personal choice, up to the individual, not the state. We all know the risks; it should be up to the person whether to take it or not.

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Sally

No, you may not know all the risks.  There's been no longterm research yet because it's so new, and even so, people are ending up  with lung damage, and some have died.   The government -- any rational government -- is responsible for public health, and this is a public health issue, just as tobacco smoking is.  

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Lennon

Great points.  I recently quit smoking, and I have never vaped.  My only concern about vaping is the lack of research.  I don't believe we know all of the dangers.  I believe in regulation of these products, but the state has overreached here.  What will they decide to ban next?

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RoseGoesToYale

Yeah, any time you take any drug you assume some sort of risk. Alcohol kills your liver and drinking too much can land you in the hospital. Still a lot of people drink, and plenty of Americans heavily, and we all saw what Prohibition did to the US in the 20s. To me it's better that stores offer the drugs instead of banning them, because otherwise you know there'll be people trying to make "bathtub vape juice" with lord knows what in it. I'd rather the FDA and FTA focus on getting the nasty stuff out of vape formulas so disease risk can be minimized.

 

Young people have never been protected by anti-drug laws of any kind, even legal alcohol age limits. Kids can just swipe cigarettes from their parents or whoever. High schoolers break into the liquor cabinet, or someone at a party has a fake ID and brings beer for everyone. College students get a hold of molly or shrooms. The laws don't really work, and it's time the government really started asking why.

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SithGirl
2 hours ago, Lee ✧ said:

while flavored vaping products may have made vaping more appealing to a younger audience

This is the key point right here. It doesn't seem like he's banning vaping all together, as I assume that would be impossible at this point. He's trying to make it less appealing to children. Other things have been done to the tobacco industry to also make it less appealing to children, such as the Family Smoking Prevention and Tobacco Control Act which apparently bans flavored cigarettes from being sold. 

 

For me, cigarette users are fine as long as they're only killing themselves. However, they're not. And anything that can make it less likely young children will be encouraged to use death sticks (oh wait, that's a Star Wars thing) then more power to them. 

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Homer

Your argumentation only goes to show how hard "it's all about economy" is drilled into your folks' minds. Economic effects are put above public health risks like it's nothing. Banning it is the right move. If shops have to close and jobs are lost, so be it.

 

Fix your damn healthcare like an actual first world country so people don't need to turn to drugs.

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SkyenAutowegCaptain

I think there's a big difference between just banning flavours and an outright ban. You don't get cherry and butterscotch flavour cigarettes, to name but two, so why vapes? Not least because when people use them in public they stink. 

 

There are reports coming out that vaping kills as well 

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Una Salus Victus

Prohibition: it goes underground, unregulated and well less tax. In between: gets taxed to the shit house, but offers no fixes other than taxing it more. Decriminalisation: Not quite legal but some effort here to actually fix it or minimalise it some more might help. Not only that, some luxuries don't hurt if done right.

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Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?)

1) I know 5 people who were pack-a-day smokers who have now stopped smoking with the help of vaping. They had always failed to give up previously.

 

2) it's not so much the nicotine that causes issues when smoking (though yes it's the nicotine that's addictive) but the dangers come especially with chemicals in the filters and in the tobacco itself (tar etc)

 

3) All the people I know who are now vaping (to give up smoking) are breathing clearer and coughing less than they were before they started vaping.

 

4) I think tobacco companies are causing a lot of the backlash against vaping. They know it's a direct threat to their industry due to the ease with which it's helping people give up smoking. My mum is 53 and has smoked for YEARS, and has never been able to give up. Once she started vaping it took like a month before she stopped buying smokes.

 

Conclusion:  Rather than banning it completely, it should be allowed specifically to help smokers give up smoking. Like if they could be given some prescription or something from their doctor to help them give up. I don't care if they prevent kids/teens etc from accessing vaping technology, but its soooooo frikken useful for actual smokers (well, my mum, my brother, and a few of their friends anyway). Both my mum and my brother are now cutting back on the amount of nicotine in the oil they use without too much issue (and again, aren't buying smokes anymore). 

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Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?)
1 hour ago, SkyenAutowegCaptain said:

Not least because when people use them in public they stink

Really? All the ones I've smelled are very pleasant (no different than people wearing perfume, but less clawing than perfumes. My brother has one that smells exactly like cookies baking!) and also, many don't have nicotine at all or have it in very low amounts which helps smokers kick their habit (vaping has helped more people I know give up smoking, more easily, than all the other products they've tried that have been available previously, including meds!).

 

Oh and regarding those reports of people being killed, again it seems like there is some smear campaign against vaping due to how much the tobacco companies know they will lose from it. I looked into the reports a few weeks ago and what had happened was some teens had been smoking 'homemade oil' that they didn't know the ingredients of. People could put ANY poison in that (just like home-rolled smokes I might add which have also been poisoned and killed people but we never hear about that...)

 

Again, I think vaping should be regulated to help people give up smoking. Only smokers should be allowed to buy the oils with actual nicotine in, with a prescription from their doctor (and the oils regulated too of course to make sure the ingredients are clean). It shouldn't be outright banned because it's a NIGHTMARE to give up smoking. They keep putting the price up here so now a 20 pack is like 50 bucks, but poor people keep buying them and are using their damn food money, even if they have kids!! Putting the price up isn't stopping the problem. But vaping? It's so much cheaper. And is really legitimately helping people quit smoking. I think that's such an important factor in this debate.

 

 

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Gloomy

I really hate bans, especially when "Oh won't someone please think of the children!!???" rhetoric is used. Sorry but other people's kids aren't my problem or responsibility. I'm a grown ass adult and should be allowed to use flavored vape products in my own house if I want to. My body, my choice. Not to mention banning things only creates a black market for them.

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Iridium

I'm generally in favor of allowing people to do what they want with their own bodies, even if it does have risks.

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SithGirl

Can I point out this is no different than the flavored cigarettes which are banned because of federal law? 

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Zagadka

I tried vaping for a brief period when i was quitting smoking (I do miss the nicotine, but certainly not the health hits you take with it. Oh, I also miss the 5 minutes outside in the quiet). I've never tried vaping marijuana, but I guess it is safer. I suppose I'm absolutely neutral. I'm sure it is bad for health, but almost everything is. As for laws for youths, I believe it should be discouraged, but I'm not strong on the issue. For adults, fair game, as long as they aren't suppressing health information. It should be 100% consensual.

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SithGirl

Since this conversation is turning to Vaping: For or Against? I'll add my two cents about that issue. About the original issue, I am supportive, i.e. against the flavored ones.

 

I am neutral to vaping, while I am against smoking. If vaping has eliminated second hand smoke, then I'd be in favor of it. I don't care if people kill themselves as long as they're not killing others. My bf used to vape and it was nice because it didn't smell. I disliked when he'd smoke (marijuana) around me because of the smell but when he began using a vape pen then I could rarely smell it and it was fine. And yeah, it's nice that you can slowly reduce the amount of nicotine or whatever in the oils because then they can help you get less addicted to the substance (some people are addicted to the act of smoking and/or going outside in the quiet, and other things, but it's the harmful bit I care about.) 

 

I do, however, have an issue with the ones that have an extreme smell. Yes, even the ones you consider pleasant. When I was in college, vaping was on the rise and there was this asshole who would vape in the hall where people would hang out in. I call him an asshole because who wants to be chilling with their friends and then suddenly be overwhelmed with the smell of curry that they can't escape? Or else need to open the windows or leave despite the cold outside? I like curry and welcome it a lot of the time, but it's not the most pleasant thing to be surrounded by when not eating or hungry.

And the reason I am against even pleasant smelling ones is because things you consider pleasant might not be to others. And how does it affect those who are allergic to things like perfume? I wouldn't know because by the time I was around vapers I was less sensitive to smells (my mom's allergic so the first time I was around strong smells was college). Or here's an idea, smoking your cookie-smelling concoction when Muslims are doing their fast and making them miserable. 

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SkyenAutowegCaptain

More and more public places in Britain are saying "no vaping" indoors. 

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Iridium

I think that vaping should be subject to the same "rules of politeness" as smoking- don't do it indoors or in spaces where people can't easily move away from you.

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Captain Jay

A few days ago, I saw a clip on the news where the CEO of Juul was telling people not to use vaping products. I went and looked it up, and the context (at 5:32 in this video) was that he was addressing people who haven't used nicotine before. Now, it's possible that his company is merely trying to cover itself and avoid legal action, but either way, this doesn't sound good for business.

 

I didn't know about the ban in Michigan specifically. Regardless of how safe vaping is, this almost seems like a situation where it's new and popular, and thus an easy target. There have also been reports of fake vaping devices that, presumably, would be more hazardous than the real ones. Either way, I wouldn't count on them being snubbed out completely. As someone who's never smoked, I don't have much investment in the issue, but hey.

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gisiebob
On 9/8/2019 at 2:49 AM, Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?) said:

4) I think tobacco companies are causing a lot of the backlash against vaping. They know it's a direct threat to their industry due to the ease with which it's helping people give up smoking. My mum is 53 and has smoked for YEARS, and has never been able to give up. Once she started vaping it took like a month before she stopped buying smokes.

pssst wanna know a secret? the vape companies ARE the tobacco  companies.

 

if you consider the only people who have quit smoking with the help of vaping to be the people who are no longer vaping, you get a very depressing change of analysis and that dissidence isn't something I feel like grappling with someone over. believe in your happily ever after I guess

 

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Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?)
1 hour ago, gisiebob said:

if you consider the only people who have quit smoking with the help of vaping to be the people who are no longer vaping, you get a very depressing change of analysis and that dissidence isn't something I feel like grappling with someone over. believe in your happily ever after I guess

What the heck are you on about? Lol. What I said was that I know multiple people who have given up smoking (a very, very expensive and dangerous habit) with the help of vaping (a much, much cheaper habit in which they buy ONE piece of equipment, and a few oils that smell like cookie dough or raspberries and last for months on end). They are still vaping, but with much lower levels of nicotine than they ever had in smokes, and without the breathing issues etc they'd experienced with tobacco. They had tried to give up multiple times before using traditional means (nicotine patches, gum, even meds, and failed every time).

 

If the vaping companies are the tobacco companies then the tobacco companies are losing a HELL of a lot of money as a direct result of vaping because even people who don't want to give up are turning to vaping over smokes as it's so much cheaper. You buy one piece of equipment and that's it, done, and you don't even need nicotine in the oils you buy,  or can buy lower and lower levels of nicotine to beat your addiction. So bravo on the tobacco companies for coming up with the cheapest, fastest, and most efficient way to give up smoking that anyone has ever invented!! That's so charitable of them to literally chuck away so many millions of dollars that they'd otherwise be making in tobacco sales, just to give people a cheaper alternative with less side effects than smoking tobacco.

 

A cost comparison: all the people I know who have now given up smoking were spending about $50 min a week on smokes.

 

Now that they're vaping, they spent an initial $80ish on the vape pipe, and an additional $20 or so on the oil. That's all they spent in the last 3 months, in comparison to the $50 min (often more) they were spending per week on smokes.

 

So don't use that mocking 'happily ever after' silliness with me. My mum was coughing up back tar because of the amount she was smoking, my brother too. Now they can actually breathe properly, aren't coughing up black phlegm, and both have a lot more money. It really *is* a 'happily ever after' of a sorts for people with a crippling smoking habit they couldn't kick, who now have their lives back thanks to vaping! 

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Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?)
On 9/9/2019 at 1:57 PM, SithGirl said:

curry

Wtf there is curry smelling vape oil? That's disgusting!! Haha. The ones we have here just have a very faint odour of baking cookies, or a hint of raspberry, or a soft mint tone, stuff like that. Oh and my brothers friend had a vanilla one that smelled delish. I don't vape (or smoke) myself, but the smoke stuff (it's steam I think?) just smells really subtle and nice. I can't even imagine a curry-smelling one, haha, that's so weird!!! :P

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InDefenseOfPOMO

The government can use every regulatory method that the Constitution permits to control substances like alcohol, tobacco, vaping oil, etc., but the government cannot make the only ideal condition a reality: individuals never in their lives using those substances.

 

I have never consumed alcohol or used tobacco or drugs.

 

But I have never assaulted anybody or cheated on my income taxes either.

 

Just like assaults and tax evasion, the use of substances that people should never use in the first place is going to happen, unfortunately.

 

Of course, somebody is going to say that alcohol, tobacco and drug use has benefits. That's fine, but I am not aware of any science showing that anybody's health or quality of life will be severely compromised without beer, cigarettes or street cocaine. As far as I know, all of the science says that it is best to never use any of it.

 

Even if it is false that all of the science says that it is best to never use alcohol, tobacco or drugs, any supposed benefits are never the issue. The issue is always dependency, abuse, poor health and early deaths. Therefore, in the context of that actual conversation it should be understood by everybody that the ideal is for no individual to ever use those substances in any form any time in his/her life.

 

All of this cigarettes versus vaping, criminalizing versus legalizing and taxing, etc. is nothing but a bunch of ideological bickering. Any conversation, such as this thread, that does not acknowledge that nobody should be using any of it in the first place is completely missing the point.

 

If officials in Michigan want to make a difference then they should start regularly publicly doing what nobody else in power has ever done: remind everybody of the foolishness of alcohol, tobacco and drugs.

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SithGirl
3 hours ago, InDefenseOfPOMO said:

That's fine, but I am not aware of any science showing that anybody's health or quality of life will be severely compromised without beer, cigarettes or street cocaine. 

There actually are benefits from the limited use of addictive substances. Marijuana, for example, can be used in many ways that include pain relief or relaxation. Not sure about tobacco cigarettes, though I've been told the time to just stand there away from things is relaxing (something they wouldn't do without having to go outside and take the time to smoke, like forcing someone to take a time-out). People keep saying a glass of wine or whatever is beneficial, and the big thing would be nothing to excess. Not sure about harder drugs, though I've been told hallucinogens help people with their relgious beliefs/feelings. 

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daveb

Well, now Trump is getting in on the act. (that is, banning flavored vapes)

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SkyenAutowegCaptain

The main reason they should be banned is because they are a freaking public nuisance. 

 

At least the flavourless ones (which I don't mind people using) don't stink half the town out. If I'm sat on the cabrank I don't want people walking past and their vapers stinking everywhere. Likewise I can be driving down the road, windows closed a/c on, and can still tell what flavour vape the driver of the car in front has just exhaled :angry:

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gisiebob
8 hours ago, SkyenAutowegCaptain said:

The main reason they should be banned is because they are a freaking public nuisance. 

 

At least the flavourless ones (which I don't mind people using) don't stink half the town out. If I'm sat on the cabrank I don't want people walking past and their vapers stinking everywhere. Likewise I can be driving down the road, windows closed a/c on, and can still tell what flavour vape the driver of the car in front has just exhaled :angry:

at least with the flavoured ones you can tell when you are breathing in second hand narcotics

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CBC

In all honesty, I don't understand the thing about vapes smelling unpleasant. I have one (haven't used it in a long time, though) and I've a friend who's an ex-smoker who's used hers around me, and like... they mostly smell like fruit and sweets and desserts? They smell delicious, lol.

 

With that said, I've actually begun to feel safer with my cigs than with a vape (yes I am aware that sounds incredibly dumb). The long-term effects of smoking are known at least. I've switched to an additive-free brand (I know that doesn't make them safe or healthy) and am trying to cut down a little, and that's fine with me for now. The recent stories about vaping horrors have scared me somewhat, I won't deny that. I feel like I'd rather deal with the devil I know than the one I don't (meaning that we're well-informed about smoking and not much at all about vaping), and if I'm going to quit at some point, I'll do it the old-fashioned way (cold turkey, nicotine patches, whatever).

 

All that said, I believe people should do whatever they want to their bodies. Eat only McDonald's, cover yourself in tattoos, snort crack, go vegan, join a nudist colony, smoke three packs of cigarettes a day, starve yourself, try to win the world record as the fattest person alive, work out at the gym until the look of your muscles makes me wanna puke, do dangerous daredevil stunts, devote yourself to god and live a life of celibacy, bang as many anonymous strangers as you want, drink yourself into oblivion, get as much plastic surgery as you wish, pop out 15 kids, commit suicide... it's your body.

 

(And ffs no, I am not trying to make light of suicide. I have mental health issues myself, have felt suicidal, etc. I understand the gravity very well. Which still does not negate the fact that I think people have the right to do it.)

 

Anyway. I do understand the "protecting youth" worries based on the fact that the vape juice tastes good, but I think the ban is overkill. For the people who want to quit cigarettes and want to take that route, it should be available.

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SkyenAutowegCaptain
15 minutes ago, gisiebob said:

at least with the flavoured ones you can tell when you are breathing in second hand narcotics

There are times when ignorance is bliss. Same when someone farts in a theatre, I'd rather it be silent and odourless, then I don't know that I'm inhaling pre-owned rectal gas 

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gisiebob
6 minutes ago, CBC said:

Anyway. I do understand the "protecting youth" worries based on the fact that the vape juice tastes good, but I think the ban is overkill. For the people who want to quit cigarettes and want to take that route, it should be available.

it remains available, just not 'fun'

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