Definition Debates

[firewallflower]

Whooooops...  *attempts to shove worms back into can*

 

Seriously, though, with all the definition debates in these parts, I've been wondering for a while how some of these oft-debated definitions would break down in an opinion-based poll format. (This has almost certainly been done before, probably many times, but I haven't seen it, so 🤷‍♀️ besides, AVEN demographics are bound to fluctuate over time.) I know, curiosity killed the cat. But, well. After all, that knowledge never does seem to stop the cat.

 

I'd request keeping the actual interactive debate out of this particular thread, but as that is likely a lost cause, instead I'll just mention the fact I'm creating the poll in Census, not Hot Box, deliberately. The point here is just to see how the numbers pan out, that's all. Bear in mind, naturally, that any poll results (aside from not being representative of all AVENites anyway, given horrendous sampling bias) are merely the combined personal opinions of the individuals who choose to weigh in via poll.

 

Exercise restraint. Try not to eat each other—we have plenty of cake to go around.

 

And here's a piece for everyone who fills out the poll. (Also, I think I should be able to add the poll to add additional questions, so if anyone has a question on this theme that they'd like to see added, feel free to let me know!)

[SithLord]

I think the definition debates tend to come from differences in definition and some people's definitions directly countering others. We've asked several times what "attraction" means, because, as an asexual, I have no idea what sexual attraction feels like. So some say it's the same as "desire to engage in partnered sexual activity" and others argue sexual desire is something entirely different.

 

So in the end, definition debates stem from people not understanding what something is and trying to understand it, only for the thing they're attempting to define in itself is almost undefinable because it's a feeling that would be different for everyone (ask someone how to describe "love" for example, and how to define it. Likely, you won't get a good answer.)

[firewallflower]

1 minute ago, sithgirlix said:

I think the definition debates tend to come from differences in definition and some people's definitions directly countering others. We've asked several times what "attraction" means, because, as an asexual, I have no idea what sexual attraction feels like. So some say it's the same as "desire to engage in partnered sexual activity" and others argue sexual desire is something entirely different.

 

So in the end, definition debates stem from people not understanding what something is and trying to understand it, only for the thing they're attempting to define in itself is almost undefinable because it's a feeling that would be different for everyone (ask someone how to describe "love" for example, and how to define it. Likely, you won't get a good answer.)

👏 *attempts to re-like*  Excellent observations, and very much agreed. (Incidentally, not sure if you saw at the time, but as luck would have it a "What does love feel like?" discussion took place just a couple weeks ago.)

 

Thank you!

[SithLord]

1 minute ago, firewallflower said:

👏 *attempts to re-like*  Excellent observations, and very much agreed. (Incidentally, not sure if you saw at the time, but as luck would have it a "What does love feel like?" discussion took place just a couple weeks ago.)

 

Thank you!

I actually don't think I was paying attention for that discussion. Though my answer would be vague and very specific to my situation, I wish I would've participated. 

[Guest]

To probably no one's surprise...

 

Desire; sexual spectrum; frustrating.

[Guest]

Just now, CBC said:

Oh shit, the results of this (so far) are not what I was expecting. I am pleasantly surprised.

[Iam9man]

Spectrum: Sexual or asexual? (Where would you categorize "in between" identities such as grey, demi, etc.?)

 

I’d go with Asexual Umbrella.

[Iam9man]

I find definition debates frustrating as they always seem to end up with the same 5-10 people having the same discussion, the same people being snarky, the same people being rude and at least one newbie quitting AVEN.

 

That being said, I have gained useful insights from definition debates.

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Iam9man said:

and at least one newbie quitting AVEN

I have a hunch you and I would probably disagree on whether or not that's a bad thing...

 

(I'm probably also proving your point about "the same people being snarky" with this very post... but then again, I wisely don't even try to refute that one, because... well, duh. )

[Iam9man]

8 minutes ago, Mysticus Insanus said:

I have a hunch you and I would probably disagree on whether or not that's a bad thing...

Then we should probably leave that discussion there 😬

 

9 minutes ago, Mysticus Insanus said:

I'm probably also proving your point about "the same people being snarky" with this very post... but then again, I wisely don't even try to refute that one, because... well, duh. )

Ha! Well, I wouldn’t quite put this post into the same bucket. I guess by snarky I was meaning more “passive aggressive” or “sarcastic with the intent to wind others up”.

[Sally]

The "attraction" definition just engenders endless discussion about the definition  of attraction itself.

 

Much better definition with no explanation needed:  No innate desire to have sex with anyone.  

[Yophe]

18 minutes ago, Mysticus Insanus said:

I have a hunch you and I would probably disagree on whether or not that's a bad thing...

cool.

[Yophe]

I basically like the debates, because it also helps me wrap my mind around this.
 

For me, being really really asexual would simply be when there's nothing sexual going on at all. No desire and no attraction for anything sexual may it be sex, foreplay, kink or whatever there is, that could turn you on. Nothing to be triggered by anything at all. It's simply no a thing. And I can understand that people who experience this might get upset with others who from their point of view doing all kind of sexual things and still consider themselves as asexual.

I am not asexual in this way. I like kissing, cuddle, some degree of foreplay maybe. But it never leads to sex. Because I don't like sex. It's just not for me. Instead I fantasize about bdsm. But never sex. So is this asexual? Cause any desire/attraction is aesthetic, sensual and kinky, but absolutely not for sexual interaction as society understands it. That's why identifying me as asexual defined this way helps me fitting myself somewhere as much as it helps others who are the more pure kind of asexual fitting themselves somewhere. So whatever helps. And the whole invention of new labels, more detailed descriptions etc which lots of people around here seem to hate as well is from my point of view just people trying not to interfere with other people's definitions, so everybody can find his way to identify as whatever helps them best without offending others.
 

But what do I know.... I'm just a newbie here. Maybe this post was helpful for some of you anyway, even though my english isn't the best 😉

[Kimmie.]

I guess the debate is unavoidable but it do create a big crack in the community. 

[Guest]

Most of the debate stems from asexuals (and people identifying as asexual) misunderstanding how actual sexual people feel.

 

There is a very strange (offensive, frustrating) definition of 'regular sexual people' perpetuated by aces here on AVEN that goes: Sexual people look at attractive people and get horny, which leads them to want sex with those people. There's also 'sexual people want sex with random hot strangers' and 'sexuals want sex with people as a result of being attracted to their appearance'. They all go something like that.

 

Many aces (and other younger people without much sexual experience) hear these incorrect definitions and truly believe that's how all sexual people feel. They then base their definition of asexuality around that mistaken belief, and get angry at any sexual people who try to say that's not how 'normal' sexual people actually feel and not what drives our sexuality.

 

At the core of it, sexual people desire partnered sexual contact for fun and pleasure and intimacy. They desire sexual intimacy to varying degrees from person to person, and with varying triggers. For SOME it's about appearance, for others it has *NOTHING TO DO WITH APPEARANCE*. Many sexual people desire sex (to the extent they'd be sad without it) PRECISELY BECAUSE SEX FEELS GOOD.

 

So when you have people here saying "I'm asexual because I love sex and would be sad without it, but only because it feels good" it's just a massive slap in the face to sexual people. Its saying "you're all horndogs who lust after other people and only bang because you're turned on by hot people" etc etc. Its just frustrating and offensive and I have spent YEARS on this site (along with other dedicated members) trying to clear up this gross misunderstanding.

 

Yet we are STILL called gatekeepers and argued with relentlessly by people who REFUSE to let go of this ridiculous false idea of what normal sexuality is. It's just this constant, never-ending barrage of asexuals who believe they know more about what it means to be sexual than actual sexual people do.

 

Asexuality is a lack of desire to connect on a sexual level with other people for pleasure. Yes that can be defined as sexual attraction (as AVEN does in the General FAQ). It's the one thing that actually separates sexuals and asexuals. All other factors are too variable to quantify. But that desire for partnered sexual contact, that's observable and measurable. Sexuals have it. Asexuals don't. And if asexuals CAN have that desire for partnered sex (for pleasure), then there's no difference between an asexual and a sexual, rendering the label 'asexual' totally meaningless.

 

 

[Guest]

30 minutes ago, CBC said:

Can I turn this into a @Mysticus Insanus appreciation thread?  

[Iam9man]

2 hours ago, firewallflower said:

I'd request keeping the actual interactive debate out of this particular thread, but as that is likely a lost cause,

Yup 🤣

[Sally]

13 minutes ago, Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?) said:

So when you have people here saying "I'm asexual because I love sex and would be sad without it, but only because it feels good," it's just a massive slap in the face to sexual people.

It's a massive slap in the face to asexuals also, because it completely disregards what asexuality is.  

[Galactic Turtle]

I'm amused by the debates but also find them a bit frustrating but not as much as the "Why are there so many posts about not being into sex? I feel invalidated. Let's talk about how fun sex is!" which I just avoid.

[Kimmie.]

I have said it before and I will say it again the sexuals on this forum are the ones that actually knows best what asexuality actually is. Because they know what sexual attraction is.

[Guest]

@firewallflower

Thank you for posting this poll. I do appreciate that you made the disclaimer and attempted to keep the focus on the poll itself. I personally think that a proper time and place exists to discuss definitions. I appreciate that you took the time to put this post together. 

[mausgrau]

36 minutes ago, Kimmie. said:

I have said it before and I will say it again the sexuals on this forum are the ones that actually best what asexuality actually is. Because they know what sexual attraction is.

Yes, many sexual people in these forums who self-ID as such, that is. 

 

More in general, I think it’s incredibly hard for people who aren’t asexual to truly understand how a person simply cannot experience sexual attraction/desire at all. To be asexual. They just don’t get it, can’t grok it. And I think that ironically some (some!) on the gray spectrum are the least understanding of all in this respect, particularly some newbies. Hence the endlessly re-starting, frustrating debates.

[Guest]

I enter the debates because I know many aces who find the lets talk about how fun sex is stuff from self-identifying aces invalidating, appropriating their label and makes them feel broken all over again. Because if asexual also means loves sex, then they have no label that fits them and are just as alienated as being heterosexual, bisexual, etc. And some have quietly quit asexuality because of it, because they feel too non-sexual for being asexual based on how much people yell about aces still can love sex  and want it and do it all the time. 

 

That's why I never even entertained the idea of keeping the ace label myself when I began feeling desire for sexual stuff. 

 

So.. I find them frustrating. And I find it more a sexuality spectrum with ace and sexual being end points with grey being in between. Ace = no attraction / desire and sexual = attraction / desire and grey is a little of either/both but not enough to go full sexual. 

[Homer]

(1) To me, the main argument for basing asexuality on "attraction" is to have it in line with the definitions of other sexualities. That would make sense. I guess that a lot of people simply confuse "attraction" and "attractivity". So I think that basing it on attraction is fine from a logical POV, even though desire might be easier to comprehend and apply correctly.

 

(2) Zero is not a spectrum. "No" is not a spectrum. Therefore, asexuality is not a spectrum. Sexuality, however, is.

 

(3) They're necessary. A sensible definition is the core ingredient to being taken seriously. If someone is offended that their experience doesn't fit this clear-cut definition, that's tough luck.

[mausgrau]

2 hours ago, Serran said:

I enter the debates because I know many aces who find the lets talk about how fun sex is stuff from self-identifying aces invalidating, appropriating their label and makes them feel broken all over again. Because if asexual also means loves sex, then they have no label that fits them and are just as alienated as being heterosexual, bisexual, etc. And some have quietly quit asexuality because of it, because they feel too non-sexual for being asexual based on how much people yell about aces still can love sex  and want it and do it all the time. 

I roundly resist entering these debates myself because… I get worked up. I feel more and more unable to take people seriously, I become veeery judgmental and, y’know, invalidating. So I generally just read and lurk and keep my Thoughts (capital T) to myself.

 

And yes, quietly, in these moments of frustration, I see the whole notion of Asexuality become less and less useful to me, and more and more of a fucking joke.

 

So really, all y’all who seemingly tirelessly speak up, I for one appreciate it. 

[AceMissBehaving]

@Serran Thank you 🖤

 

If I may, some of the debates have left me in tears recently. Maybe it’s a generational thing, but as an older asexual I had to grow up without even the notion that how I felt was even possible without being in someway sick or broken. My relationships would become train wrecks and I couldn’t stop it. I spent years with intense suicidal ideation because of it, and yes, there was one time a partners sexual frustration got bad enough to the point where they tried initiating sex and didn’t stop when I asked them to. I have spent so many nights crying alone in bathrooms after sex I didn’t want but felt I had to have to avoid another train wreck, and I’m a sex indifferent asexual. I can’t even imagine how hard it has been for others. 

 

For me finding, and finally identifying with asexuality was like sliding into

my own skin for the first time. The label means more than “don’t quite fit in” it’s been a literal lifeline, and I know I’m not alone in this. Seeing it get mangled into nothing, over the last few days especially, has left me miserable and if I’m honest alone and afraid all over again. 

 

I have found my voice starting to be silenced within my own sexuality exactly as it was when I thought I was straight. 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Whatsis said:

More in general, I think it’s incredibly hard for people who aren’t asexual to truly understand how a person simply cannot experience sexual attraction/desire at all. To be asexual.

Except what @Kimmie. was saying is that sexuals understand what sexual attraction is, what it means to be sexual. When we see someone trying to define asexuality in a way that is actually just a normal sexual behaviour (ie desiring partnered sex for pleasure) we are in a position to speak up because we *know* what that feels like, and we know it's not asexual.

 

2 hours ago, Whatsis said:

(accidental quote that I can't delete on mobile)

And also, many of the sexuals involved in these debates over the years actually came to AVEN initially having never experienced sexual attraction/a desire for partnered sexual interaction. That's how many of us ended up on a site like this. So plenty of us do know the struggle of asexuality. Of trying to navigate romantic relationships while having to compromise on this thing (sex) that always felt very alien and wrong to us (even if we weren't actually repulsed or anything). Then after years of struggle, long painful relationships etc, we finally 'met the right person' or whatever, and discovered what it's like to be attracted to someone in a way that makes one able to desire and enjoy sex with them. 

 

So I think plenty of us are in a pretty darned good position to know exactly what we are talking about. Then of course there's the sexual partners who have been in romantic relationships with an asexual for years, even decades. They probably have a pretty darned good idea of the difference as well, if they've really taken the time to try to understand and empathise with their ace partner as many sexuals here have. 

 

Edit (I'm just trying to explain -with regards to the overall topic - why sexuals are not totally useless or just trying to get in the way or whatever, as some seem to think we are, just because we don't identify as asexual!) 🍰

[mausgrau]

I've no beef w/ you, @Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?) -- I did agree with Kimmie on (many of) the sexuals here on AVEN, if you want to re-read the first part of my comment. 

[firewallflower]

6 hours ago, Iam9man said:

Yup 🤣

 

@A Grey So Dark Thank you!

 

I don't really mind, though. Personally, I find these kinds of discussions interesting and important to have. (Even if sometimes frustrating as well... oops, I should have  included "necessary" as a response option. Oh well), though I don't usually get too involved in the debates myself (because time-sucker - oh, another response option I should've included!).

 

Mostly, I just want the thread to stay in Census. 😅

[Guest]

15 minutes ago, AceMissBehaving said:

@Serran Thank you 🖤

 

If I may, some of the debates have left me in tears recently. Maybe it’s a generational thing, but as an older asexual I had to grow up without even the notion that how I felt was even possible without being in someway sick or broken. My relationships would become train wrecks and I couldn’t stop it. I spent years with intense suicidal ideation because of it, and yes, there was one time a partners sexual frustration got bad enough to the point where they tried initiating sex and didn’t stop when I asked them to. I have spent so many nights crying alone in bathrooms after sex I didn’t want but felt I had to have to avoid another train wreck, and I’m a sex indifferent asexual. I can’t even imagine how hard it has been for others. 

 

For me finding, and finally identifying with asexuality was like sliding into

my own skin for the first time. The label means more than “don’t quite fit in” it’s been a literal lifeline, and I know I’m not alone in this. Seeing it get mangled into nothing, over the last few days especially, has left me miserable and if I’m honest alone and afraid all over again. 

 

I have found my voice starting to be silenced within my own sexuality exactly as it was when I thought I was straight. But yeah, I’m the invalidating asshole 

Yep I felt EXACTLY the same for so many years so I can understand and empathise with how you feel. I'm sorry for what you've had to go through in the past with the emotional pain etc of sex and navigating relationships as an ace, it sucks :c. My sense of brokenness caused me the same discomfort, even led me into an extremely abusive relationship that I just kind of let happen in a way because I felt it was all I was worth. What more was I good for but to be assaulted and used, if I could never give someone the love they desire? (That's how I felt at the time anyway).  When I finally learned about asexuality (after years of suffering) I was so happy that I cried. Finally to learn there were others out there like me who could actually desire love, but with no need for sex? It was a dream come true because I finally knew I wasn't alone. It wasn't just 'i don't quite fit anywhere so I'll adopt this label', instead it was like 'i finally know what I AM after all of these years of suffering'. It literally felt like a lifeline for me, like I re-discovered myself.

 

But.. I'd started rejecting the ace label BEFORE I discovered I have the potential to actually desire sexual intimacy (which I only discovered a couple of years ago) not because I thought I wasn't ace but because of how frikken alienating and frustrating it can be having people screaming at you because they love sex so much, but..they're still ace apparently.. And they're claiming you're a gatekeeper for trying to explain that what they're describing is the EXACT reason you yourself suffered so horribly all those years, because you COULDN'T desire what they claim they desire..that's WHY the ace label felt so right for you. And suddenly you're like... Wait, what? This is exactly what I was frikken getting away from, but asexuality actually means you can be just like any other sexual person and expect sex from your partner in order for you to be happy? Hell no!! I mean, I knew that the sex favourable definition was incorrect (and I debated it for years on here) but still, people were (and still are) actively demanding that asexuality be redefined as 'anything they want it to be, including loving sex!!' and it starts making one really want to just reject the damn label after a while because it stops making any sense. I've had friends leave this community over it because they just can't desire sex and don't want to be associated with.. well.. just normal sexuality really 😕 So it's a bit of a clusterfuck all around, no pun intended. Sigh. 

 

It's almost like asexuals who have no desire to connect sexually with other people need to come up with a new label and a new community just to feel at home again. It really does feel that way. And I say that as someone who doesn't even ID as ace anymore because I found that under limited circumstances I can actually desire sexual intimacy. But still, I know the struggle. I dealt with it for years. And it frikken SUCKS for those who still ID as fully ace (due to lack of intrinsic desire) to be stuck in the middle of all this Y_Y