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Circumcision - Pros and/or Cons? TW the discussion includes FGM


SithLord

Circumcision - Yay or Nay?  

22 members have voted

  1. 1. Opinions on male circumcision (or male genital multilation)

    • In favor of
      1
    • Against
      14
    • Other or Complicated (please explain)
      7
  2. 2. Opinions on female circumcision (or female genital multilation)

    • In favor of
      0
    • Against
      19
    • Other or Complicated (please explain)
      3


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This topic has probably been asked before, but I'm curious about people's opinions on it. Everyone I know personally is against it, for females. For males they're more on the fence or apathetic, which I find horrible. I don't really see a difference between multilating the genetalia of females or males though I do acknowledge the forms of female circumcisions can range to be FAR worse than male circumcision. 

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RoseGoesToYale

I'm firmly against any form of circumcision, especially on infants because they can't consent to it, insofar as it pertains to my own society and culture. As a white woman who grew up in middle-class America, I have no right to comment on the moral/social justifications for circumcision, including female circumcision, in primarily non-white cultures. To do so would be colonialistic. Those societies can come to their own conclusions about circumcision on their own time and brainpower.

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I put other for both, for male I would say it’s better to have done when your younger if that’s what you want or parents want I should say but if your older I strongly recommend not having it done unless it’s causing issues 

 

for female , I know is done but I don’t know why it’s done and quite frankly it sounds fucking painful since those have more nerves in them than just some skin, isn’t it more like taking part of it?

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3 minutes ago, N8LV3y said:

I put other for both, for male I would say it’s better to have done when your younger if that’s what you want or parents want I should say but if your older I strongly recommend not having it done unless it’s causing issues 

So then for male, are you for or against having it done for a hypothetical child you were to have in the future? (Not saying you're going to have it, just curious on your personal opinion about doing it to a boy where it's your decision).

 

4 minutes ago, N8LV3y said:

for female , I know is done but I don’t know why it’s done and quite frankly it sounds fucking painful since those have more nerves in them than just some skin, isn’t it more like taking part of it?

And there are multiple versions, one actually sews up the hole used so only natural emissions can come out. Pretty sure all are painful, but I find the differentiation between methods interesting. There is another (or possibly the same as before?) that basically removes the clitoris. 

 

I think, in general, the female versions seems almost anti-sexual while the male versions are less direct about it, though I've heard both are claimed to make the child "clean". 

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@sithgirlix if made the mistake of having a child ( 🤣 ) I wouldn’t have a circumcision done since it was originally done to try prevent masterbation

 

that’s all really sad and disturbing, removing the clitoris that would be the same thing as removing the head of a penis

it piss’s me off how people with female sex organs are set at a standard that they need to be all prim and proper and are looked at as garbage if they sleep with more than one person 

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RoseGoesToYale
42 minutes ago, N8LV3y said:

since it was originally done to try prevent masterbation

This myth makes me laugh so hard. Did some old guys just get together like "How do we stop male masturbation?" "Let's cut off an irrelevant part of skin that has no bearing on men's ability to feel sexual pleasure!" "Sounds legit to me!"

 

But on female's, it's pretty darn relevant, so...

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Other for male (firmly against it if done to children without a strong medical indication - e.g., moderate to severe phimosis; but I couldn't care less if and when a grownup makes an informed choice about having his own penis circumcised).

 

Totally against it in the female case (where there's hardly ever anything even approaching a medical indication, and the sole purpose is misogynistic oppression).

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4 minutes ago, RoseGoesToYale said:

This myth makes me laugh so hard. Did some old guys just get together like "How do we stop male masturbation?" "Let's cut off an irrelevant part of skin that has no bearing on men's ability to feel sexual pleasure!" "Sounds legit to me!"

 

But on female's, it's pretty darn relevant, so...

According to my bf it actually lessens their amount of pleasure through sex. Not sure since I obviously haven't surveyed a bunch of men on the issue, but it makes sense if you take something extremely sensitive, like the clitoris or head of a man's penis, and cut off the protective skin layer to expose the nerves to a lot more stimulation. Them being overstimulated leads eventually to the nerves not reacting to stimulation later after healing.

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I've posted other. Circumcision (all genders) for cultural reasons alone should be banned until the person is old enough to make an informed decision, and does so voluntarily without pressure from family, community etc. 

 

However if there's a clear medical reason, phimosis for example, then yes, circumcision should take place 

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The history of male circumcision is actually quite interesting. Circumcision originated in sandy countries in the time before underwear and hygiene. It started due to the lack of underwear and hygiene, and men wearing long dress like clothes meaning sand got everywhere, including under the foreskin. A lack of hygiene mean the area wasn't cleaned. This caused infections and swelling that then meant they were unable to urinate due to the inflamed foreskin. The way to solve this was to use a rock (or other sharp implement) to cut off the foreskin. This was the easiest way to resolve the problem as the foreskin could easily be pulled up in order to be removed. However, in the days before sanitisation and anaesthetic they quickly realized that doing this on adult males was significantly difficult (lets be honest its a sensitive area). Therefore, it was easier to undertake the procedure on infants. 

In once instance the circumcision of all the adult males was used in order to slaughter an entire village. An agreement was reached where, if all the adult males were circumcised, the village would be left alone. They agreed and on the same day the males had their foreskin removed. Within a few days the infection had set in and this was used as the opportunity to come in and slaughter the village. 

 

This is why circumcision has become part of religions that derived from sandy areas (Islam, Jews etc.). It was for hygiene reasons. However, in modern society these hygiene reasons are now rarely present, and therefore the usefulness of circumcision has had it's day. Of course once something is enshrined in tradition its very difficult to remove it.

On a random note of interest the supposed foreskin of Jesus has been claimed to be held by numerous institutions in numerous countries.

 

FGM has a slightly less certain history. Though it is believed it may have originated from the slave trade in order to stop female slaves from becoming pregnant and to deter them from having sex. It has also been linked to potentially showing a woman was 'pure'. There's an interesting article on the history of FGM here (please note this has diagrams of the different types of FGM including descriptions).

 

So to look at these historical reasoning, there is no need to undertake circumcision or FGM in modern society, except in the case of medical requirement. Both also go against the oath of doctors and surgeons to 'do no harm' as it is undertaking a harmful procedure that offers no benefit to the recipient, This is why, historically, neither procedure was undertaken by surgeons.

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26 minutes ago, Cheshire-Cat said:

It has also been linked to potentially showing a woman was 'pure'.

An article I read during my Gender Studies class in Sweden was interesting in that it was taking an more positive view of FGM (which she insisted on calling female circumcision because of the negative bias using FGM creates) in a society she was there studying (she was in Sudan apparently). People were all up in arms about ending the practice, but she argued it's not such a simple issue of crying "sexual abuse" because of the procedure's meanings towards a girl's femininity and status as an adult woman. 

I believe she fails at objectivity (not sure if she tries) but it's why I used both genital mutilation and circumcision. 

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everywhere and nowhere
10 hours ago, RoseGoesToYale said:

As a white woman who grew up in middle-class America, I have no right to comment on the moral/social justifications for circumcision, including female circumcision, in primarily non-white cultures. To do so would be colonialistic. Those societies can come to their own conclusions about circumcision on their own time and brainpower.

No. We should think about the girls screaming in horror and pain, dying of inflammation, tortured by later sex they have no right to refuse. This practice is horrifying and should be fought everywhere because the only thing which matters are an individual's rights.

As a sex-averse and nudity-averse woman I want all people to have full protection from unwanted sex and nudity.

 

That said, as for the colonialist aspect - it does indeed make it worse. In India sati (burning widows on their husbands' funeral pyres) was dying out as a practice when the British decided to ban it. The result was a wave of sati - murder on women as means of establishing one's own cultural distinction. On a smaller and slightly less violent scale, this is what aggressive conservatism is doing right now in countries such as Russia or here in Poland - homophobia, very restrictive abortion law (in Poland) or disregarding domestic violence as means of differentiating oneself from "corrupt Europe". Or "Gayropa", as they call it in Russia.

 

As for male circumcision - I believe that circumcision of infants should be discontinued because it is a violation of their corporal integrity. But really, male circumcision and "female circumcision" are two completely different things. Yes, violation of a child's corporal integrity is always wrong. But the harms resulting from male circumcision are really incomparable to female genital mutilation, which can easily be fatal and if it isn't, it often makes the rest of these girls' lives a torture.

I would also like to add that if we analyse these two together, then it would be a good thing to add another group of procedures: non-necessary surgeries on intersex infants. Yes, the attitudes are slowly changing, doctors no longer advocate, for example, lying to parents - but such surgeries are still performed. In terms of harm potential, they rank somewhere between circumcision and female genital mutilation - reduction of an "oversized" clitoris can result in lack of sensitivity and no access to sexual or autoerotic pleasure, "repair" or hypospadias (extension of urethra so that the meatus is on the tip of the penis) often results in recurring inflammation or embolisms, when the only thing achieved is a boy's ability to Stand To Pee (I use capital letters as a way of expressing my ironic attitude towards the way Standing To Pee is perceived as almost core of masculinity)... I believe that all sugeries on intersex individuals which aren't medically required should be only performed in adult people who are the only ones who can give or refuse informed consent.

 

And just by the way - I read a text once, but I can't find it anymore... It was a very subtle erotic scene between two women - one was an African subjected to female genital mutilation and the other one a Western intersex individual who was subjected to clitoral reduction.

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@Nowhere Girl, if banning a practice outright creates a backlash, what do you think is a better way to discourage it?  I'm not poking holes in your logic, just wondering what you think.

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I think that cultural relativism, valuable though it is as a tool for looking at the world, can only go so far.  We should always be willing to take into account other ways of living, and recognize that they have merit.  But if we unquestioningly accept that the practices of other cultures are "just the way things are", then we turn a blind eye to all manner of injustices that we wouldn't tolerate "in our own house".  Some things do require a moral judgment.

 

We can allow that different groups have different ways of doing things without losing our collective moral compass.  This, however, requires a good deal of critical thinking about right and wrong.

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everywhere and nowhere
5 minutes ago, Iridium said:

I think that cultural relativism, valuable though it is as a tool for looking at the world, can only go so far.  We should always be willing to take into account other ways of living, and recognize that they have merit.  But if we unquestioningly accept that the practices of other cultures are "just the way things are", then we turn a blind eye to all manner of injustices that we wouldn't tolerate "in our own house".  Some things do require a moral judgment.

 

We can allow that different groups have different ways of doing things without losing our collective moral compass.  This, however, requires a good deal of critical thinking about right and wrong.

Yes, that's it. I absolutely agree with it.

I'm not really sure how to efficiently fight such horror. But it needs to be done. As I said, I reject cultural relativism which would condone members of other cultures torturing members of their own communities. This is always objectively wrong. But a colonialist approach also makes it worse. I also strongly support religious and philosophical tolerance - we should be ready to live in a world where people have different opinions and we shouldn't push ours on others. Which is why I also reject attempts to demonise Islam. Islamic fundamentalism is, too, largely a product of a culture clash - and it isn't faultless on our side. Many migrants form isolated communities - "Islamic no-go zones" in Western cities don't exist, it's a myth spread by Russian propaganda to undermine Europe's sense of security and belief in EU values, but still poor integration of many migrant communities is a fact. But it's not just their fault - it's also a result of racism and religious prejudice on our side. And such isolated communities become a fertile ground for fundamentalism. So also efforts against female genital mutilation should be combined with anti-racist activities, with friendly intergration of migrants.

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10 hours ago, RoseGoesToYale said:

This myth makes me laugh so hard. Did some old guys just get together like "How do we stop male masturbation?" "Let's cut off an irrelevant part of skin that has no bearing on men's ability to feel sexual pleasure!" "Sounds legit to me!"

 

But on female's, it's pretty darn relevant, so...

 

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I was snipped.  Apparently Back In My Day it was thought to help prevent... something, idk what.  Disease, conditions, buildup, idk.

 

I don't really care about it, but I appreciate the good intentions originally behind it.  Bottom line, if parents are told or somehow get the indication that something will be good for their kid long-term, they'll probably do it, even if it's physically invasive.  That's the same reason why they are given vaccinations, even if getting poked and injected with a needle could be similarly traumatic for the kid (I remember this trauma far better than I remember getting snipped; they once needed 4 people to hold me down just to be given a shot, to give an idea of how bad that used to be for me).  It's just that now we know circumcision doesn't really carry benefits to the degree it was once thought it did, so now we stop encouraging it unless it's somehow necessary.

 

Yeah, kids can't consent, but the thing is parents have to do a lot of things for their kids that the kids might not consent to, if they want the kids to grow up healthily, so I would advise against using "they can't consent" as a valid defense against this sort of thing because to me it just sounds at least slightly hypocritical.  Taking charge of your child's care (even against your kid's possible protestations) is just part of being a responsible parent.  Sometimes though, the adults are misinformed, and something once thought to be beneficial might not be, or something that was deemed as unimportant later turns out to be.  Shit happens.  I won't hold it against my own parents for trying to do what they felt was the right thing at the time.

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RoseGoesToYale
2 hours ago, Nowhere Girl said:

No. We should think about the girls screaming in horror and pain, dying of inflammation, tortured by later sex they have no right to refuse. This practice is horrifying and should be fought everywhere because the only thing which matters are an individual's rights.

I'm not disputing that the practice is terrible. I can fight til the death to make sure FGC is banned and stays banned forever in my own society. But if I fight the practice in certain African cultures e.g., then I'm just an entitled white woman trying to force my moral upbringing onto a culture that didn't ask for my opinion. The reasons why FGC is justified to these people are complex and buried in ages of cultural thought, concepts of what masculinity and femininity should look like. Stopping the practice isn't as simple as western society pointing and shouting "Don't do that!"

 

The change there has to come from within, and change is happening. There are women (and men!) in Africa who are beginning to question the merits of circumcision, and those are the people who can enact change. Yeah, the process might be slow. Think how much strife and heartache and political fire it would take for westerners to give up their cars. But I have faith they can do it. I've seen what happens when my country decides to impose its own morality onto other nations and physically goes in there to make the changes itself. The results are NOT pretty.

 

Now, if only my society could wise up to the horrors of male circumcision and get that banned...

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I wouldn't choose circumcision for my son(s) but if they needed it (which is possible), that wouldn't bother me. Female circumcision can only be detrimental with no possible benefits so I'm strongly against that.

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Female circumcision ranges from the hood of the clitoris (which some women choose as adults in Western society for personal reasons and that I am fine with) to total removal of basically everything that causes major nerve damage and makes sex painful (which I am against). 

 

Male circumcision is removal of the foreskin which Im OK with for medical purposes on minors and adults can choose it if they want. 

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DuranDuranfan
12 hours ago, Cheshire-Cat said:

 In once instance the circumcision of all the adult males was used in order to slaughter an entire village. An agreement was reached where, if all the adult males were circumcised, the village would be left alone. They agreed and on the same day the males had their foreskin removed. Within a few days the infection had set in and this was used as the opportunity to come in and slaughter the village. 

Yep, the town of Shechem. Jacob’s son Simeon planned it as revenge because his sister Dinah was raped by the son of the town’s king. It’s in the Bible.

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I'm circumcised and that's the way it is. I have no feelings one way or other.

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