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Let’s get this (sex fav.) schism started!

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gray-a girl
31 minutes ago, Dawning said:

YES!! Asexuality is an ORIENTATION, and whether or not you actually HAVE sex has absolutely nothing to do with what your orientation is! Neither sexual activity nor celibacy is a requirement to be any other orientation, and to say otherwise for asexuals is ridiculous, confusing, and causes the 99% of people who aren't us to invalidate asexuality as an orientation.

I agree. You can be a lesbian even if you regularly have sex with guys. 

 

It is interesting that s majority of asexuals are sex repulsed or sex indifferent. I wonder do a majority of asexuals just not experience a libido too?

 

Someone posted something quite accurate earlier... that you can enjoy sexual stuff by letting someone else do it instead of doing it yourself. There is something nice about the lack of control and the surprise factor, hence why doing it with someone else. I don’t know how many asexuals have a libido and masterbate but if most do this shouldn’t be a hard concept to understand. I can only conclude that most do not, then.

 

So I’m wondering about this. Do most asexuals also lack a libido and just never  masterbate? Otherwise I don’t see why sex favorable Asexuality would be so hard to understand.

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Dawning

Here's some more food for thought: Many of the people who are insisting that an asexual can't have desire, or libido, or feel sexual enjoyment, or whatever other nonsense, are referring to the following:

 

http://wiki.asexuality.org/Primary_vs._secondary_sexual_attraction_model

 

Primary vs. secondary sexual attraction model

This hypothetical model of sexuality takes the position that sexual attraction and desire can each be subdivided into "primary" and "secondary" forms:

  • Primary Sexual Attraction: A sexual attraction to people based on instantly available information (such as their appearance or smell) which may or may not lead to arousal or sexual desire.
  • Secondary Sexual Attraction: A sexual attraction that develops over time based on a person's relationship and emotional connection with another person.
  • Primary Sexual Desire: The desire to engage in sexual activity for the purposes of personal pleasure whether physical, emotional, or both.
  • Secondary Sexual Desire: The desire to engage in sexual activity for the purposes other than personal pleasure, such as the happiness of the other person involved or the conception of children.

It's obviously foolish to add having no libido as a requirement for being asexual, when people of other orientations can have no libido, some libido, or huge libido and still be gay or straight or whatever, but let's dig deeper. Here is the table that this model uses: 

 

Sexual Orientation Primary Attraction? Secondary Attraction? Primary Desire? Secondary Desire?
Sexual Yes Yes Yes Yes
Demisexual No Yes Yes Yes
Asexual No No No Yes

 

This table is supposed to make clear how we should categorize ourselves… but do you notice something missing here? What if you have any interest whatsoever in having orgasms that you don't have to produce with your own efforts, whether or not you feel desire per se, in other words an emotion or a feeling, or just an intellectual interest in an orgasmic experience with assistance, in the same way that you might eat a piece of chocolate not because you're hungry, not because you're craving it, but because it's available and it will produce a pleasant sensation? That would give us this:

 

Sexual Orientation Primary Attraction? Secondary Attraction? Primary Desire? Secondary Desire?
Sexual Yes Yes Yes Yes
Demisexual No Yes Yes Yes

Asexual

???????

No

NO

No

NO

No

YES

Yes

whatever

 

So what do we do with THAT? This model, that we're getting bludgeoned with as proof of not being asexual, doesn't have a category for sex-positive aces, in other words for people who NEVER FEEL SEXUAL ATTRACTION but are interested in sexual pleasure of some sort. Whether our interest is masturbation, assisted masturbation, fetish, or standard sexual interaction, if WE NEVER FEEL SEXUAL ATTRACTION, we are not represented by the current model.

 

Clearly the model has failed, but since people are still clinging to it, I think they owe us an answer to the question… What do we call the people in red above? Are we supposed to create yet another sexual orientation, and then try to explain to the 99% majority why we need TWO different sexual orientations for people who never feel attraction to anyone? Please tell me that you see how ridiculous that would be!!

 

In the same way that people in prison who would never touch someone of their same gender on the outside will have regular sexual activity with same-sex partners while behind bars because that's what's available, but are still straight, you can be asexual and have sexual activity because you want release or pleasure but still remain ace.

 

 

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gray-a girl
11 minutes ago, Dawning said:

Here's some more food for thought: Many of the people who are insisting that an asexual can't have desire, or libido, or feel sexual enjoyment, or whatever other nonsense, are referring to the following:

 

http://wiki.asexuality.org/Primary_vs._secondary_sexual_attraction_model

 

Primary vs. secondary sexual attraction model

This hypothetical model of sexuality takes the position that sexual attraction and desire can each be subdivided into "primary" and "secondary" forms:

  • Primary Sexual Attraction: A sexual attraction to people based on instantly available information (such as their appearance or smell) which may or may not lead to arousal or sexual desire.
  • Secondary Sexual Attraction: A sexual attraction that develops over time based on a person's relationship and emotional connection with another person.
  • Primary Sexual Desire: The desire to engage in sexual activity for the purposes of personal pleasure whether physical, emotional, or both.
  • Secondary Sexual Desire: The desire to engage in sexual activity for the purposes other than personal pleasure, such as the happiness of the other person involved or the conception of children.

It's obviously foolish to add having no libido as a requirement for being asexual, when people of other orientations can have no libido, some libido, or huge libido and still be gay or straight or whatever, but let's dig deeper. Here is the table that this model uses: 

 

Sexual Orientation Primary Attraction? Secondary Attraction? Primary Desire? Secondary Desire?
Sexual Yes Yes Yes Yes
Demisexual No Yes Yes Yes
Asexual No No No Yes

 

This table is supposed to make clear how we should categorize ourselves… but do you notice something missing here? What if you have any interest whatsoever in having orgasms that you don't have to produce with your own efforts, whether or not you feel desire per se, in other words an emotion or a feeling, or just an intellectual interest in an orgasmic experience with assistance, in the same way that you might eat a piece of chocolate not because you're hungry, not because you're craving it, but because it's available and it will produce a pleasant sensation? That would give us this:

 

Sexual Orientation Primary Attraction? Secondary Attraction? Primary Desire? Secondary Desire?
Sexual Yes Yes Yes Yes
Demisexual No Yes Yes Yes

Asexual

???????

No

NO

No

NO

No

YES

Yes

whatever

 

So what do we do with THAT? This model, that we're getting bludgeoned with as proof of not being asexual, doesn't have a category for sex-positive aces, in other words for people who NEVER FEEL SEXUAL ATTRACTION but are interested in sexual pleasure of some sort. Whether our interest is masturbation, assisted masturbation, fetish, or standard sexual interaction, if WE NEVER FEEL SEXUAL ATTRACTION, we are not represented by the current model.

 

Clearly the model has failed, but since people are still clinging to it, I think they owe us an answer to the question… What do we call the people in red above? Are we supposed to create yet another sexual orientation, and then try to explain to the 99% majority why we need TWO different sexual orientations for people who never feel attraction to anyone? Please tell me that you see how ridiculous that would be!!

 

In the same way that people in prison who would never touch someone of their same gender on the outside will have regular sexual activity with same-sex partners while behind bars because that's what's available, but are still straight, you can be asexual and have sexual activity because you want release or pleasure but still remain ace.

 

 

Yes!!! Exactly!

 

What else do we call ourselves? There is nothing else but sex favorable asexuals. But arrogant sexual elites don’t want to accept us so they try to jam us into the sexual/allosexual category, even though it doesn’t fit at all. They must think “I don’t care that this person has had trouble dating because of a lack of attraction. They want sex!” So they invalidate our experiences and struggles with trying to date people when there is no sexual attraction. Just because we like sex doesn’t mean we don’t have problems dating. But they have blinders on and can’t see that we don’t fit there.

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neverlove

Yup. We obviously have a label, people just don't want to accept it. And interesting because sex neutral and repulsed get to share despite. Answering differently to secondary desire.

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crazy ace
6 hours ago, gray-a girl said:

It is interesting that s majority of asexuals are sex repulsed or sex indifferent. I wonder do a majority of asexuals just not experience a libido too?

I have a libido, but it is mostly an annoyance, as I'm indifferent.

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neverlove
6 minutes ago, crazy ace said:

I have a libido, but it is mostly an annoyance, as I'm indifferent.

I'm favorable, but I consider my libido an annoyance as well. 🤷🏽‍♀️

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Iam9man
5 hours ago, neverlove said:

I'm favorable, but I consider my libido an annoyance as well. 🤷🏽‍♀️

I’m favourable and consider my libido an annoyance some of the time, other times not.

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DogObsessedLianne
22 hours ago, Dawning said:

Do you think you might be experiencing alterous attraction to women? I had some confusion in this area as well, and that's what eventually rang true for me.

It's more admiration, like a piece of artwork! Now I appreciate why naked women have been particularly popular subjects for artists throughout history. Actually I have strong admiration for anything beautiful in the world, it's just a shame I don't have an artistic or photography bone in my body!!! I am your typical art gallery goer though! I get platonic attraction to both, though most likely men. I just want to be their mate!

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Marlow1
On 9/17/2019 at 7:02 PM, gray-a girl said:

I agree. You can be a lesbian even if you regularly have sex with guys. 

 

It is interesting that s majority of asexuals are sex repulsed or sex indifferent. I wonder do a majority of asexuals just not experience a libido too?

 

Someone posted something quite accurate earlier... that you can enjoy sexual stuff by letting someone else do it instead of doing it yourself. There is something nice about the lack of control and the surprise factor, hence why doing it with someone else. I don’t know how many asexuals have a libido and masterbate but if most do this shouldn’t be a hard concept to understand. I can only conclude that most do not, then.

 

So I’m wondering about this. Do most asexuals also lack a libido and just never  masterbate? Otherwise I don’t see why sex favorable Asexuality would be so hard to understand.

I have been thinking about these things that you have mentioned above for most of this day, and I am still struggling to come to a conclusion for myself

 

After my brain hemorrhage I experienced neither attraction or libido, kind of similar to how things were before I met my wife. When I told my therapist that I had been exactly like this up until the age of 35 he was shocked and said it is rare for a person that has had no libido to suddenly develop one at the age of 35 years. We went on to explain about the long platonic friendship and the long romantic relationship that led to me becoming sexually attracted and from this information our therapist concluded that I am Demisexual, but emphasised that he had never known anybody to go from no libido to sexually attracted at that age

 

Anyway. To get things up and running again our therapist suggested two things. One that we start dating, having fun times, romantic times, shared intellectual moments and so on, and he, (like my brother the first time around) started keeping notes, and reminding me of the times I said things went well and so on. This was so I could rebuild concepts in my mind (re: Aphantasia) 

 

He also recommended the following protocol, which I still stick to. Its purpose here is to improve libido, but to be honest I think it is improving my overall health, including brain function, hence the reason why I have suddenly begun to dream in pictures (occasionally) and it might be helping me with attraction because my brain is now working more efficiently?  But that bit is complicated because like I have mentioned in pasts post, having enough information to build the needed concepts in my mind is also a very important factor regarding attraction for me, so we still do not know precisely?? 

 

https://www.marksdailyapple.com/a-guide-to-maintaining-a-healthy-sex-drive/

 

The short and long of it seem to be that if I have better health, better brain function both attraction and libido are possible for me, but the day to day experiences with my wife and the context of these experiences also play a role. 

 

Even though both attraction and libido has returned I find that both of these only really work when she is close by, in the house etc. And the atmosphere is positive, and she is happy, and we have shared fun, romantic, intellectual time together, and so on

 

When she is not here it is very rare for sexual thoughts to enter my mind, and as ever I still do not get attracted to anybody else. Not in real life, nor celebrities, no porn and so on. 

 

If I am totally honest in my case it feel like the attraction leads to the libido, but in most cases for Allosexual men, I think, this might be the other way around???? 

 

When I was young and I had no attraction, or libido and the word Asexual had not been invented but it would have fitted me well. Because I have developed sexual attraction to one person, my wife only, I identify as Demisexual. I can perform, and I become attracted to my wife a lot nowadays but I still can't and don't do many other the things that many Allosexual men say they do. I cannot visualise my wife at all, nor anybody else, I cannot tell myself erotic stories in my head, and would even struggle to tell myself any by speaking out loud too LOL. Oh golly, yes I really am that boring.... I can't be bothered reading erotica, I find that boring, and it is the same with pornography. I don't get attracted to anybody else but my wife, I do not masturbate, I don't have crushes, I get confused with sexual jokes, I don't understand flirting and so on

 

 

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DogObsessedLianne
21 hours ago, Dawning said:

Here's some more food for thought: Many of the people who are insisting that an asexual can't have desire, or libido, or feel sexual enjoyment, or whatever other nonsense, are referring to the following:

 

http://wiki.asexuality.org/Primary_vs._secondary_sexual_attraction_model

 

Primary vs. secondary sexual attraction model

This hypothetical model of sexuality takes the position that sexual attraction and desire can each be subdivided into "primary" and "secondary" forms:

  • Primary Sexual Attraction: A sexual attraction to people based on instantly available information (such as their appearance or smell) which may or may not lead to arousal or sexual desire.
  • Secondary Sexual Attraction: A sexual attraction that develops over time based on a person's relationship and emotional connection with another person.
  • Primary Sexual Desire: The desire to engage in sexual activity for the purposes of personal pleasure whether physical, emotional, or both.
  • Secondary Sexual Desire: The desire to engage in sexual activity for the purposes other than personal pleasure, such as the happiness of the other person involved or the conception of children.

It's obviously foolish to add having no libido as a requirement for being asexual, when people of other orientations can have no libido, some libido, or huge libido and still be gay or straight or whatever, but let's dig deeper. Here is the table that this model uses: 

 

Sexual Orientation Primary Attraction? Secondary Attraction? Primary Desire? Secondary Desire?
Sexual Yes Yes Yes Yes
Demisexual No Yes Yes Yes
Asexual No No No Yes

 

This table is supposed to make clear how we should categorize ourselves… but do you notice something missing here? What if you have any interest whatsoever in having orgasms that you don't have to produce with your own efforts, whether or not you feel desire per se, in other words an emotion or a feeling, or just an intellectual interest in an orgasmic experience with assistance, in the same way that you might eat a piece of chocolate not because you're hungry, not because you're craving it, but because it's available and it will produce a pleasant sensation? That would give us this:

 

Sexual Orientation Primary Attraction? Secondary Attraction? Primary Desire? Secondary Desire?
Sexual Yes Yes Yes Yes
Demisexual No Yes Yes Yes

Asexual

???????

No

NO

No

NO

No

YES

Yes

whatever

 

So what do we do with THAT? This model, that we're getting bludgeoned with as proof of not being asexual, doesn't have a category for sex-positive aces, in other words for people who NEVER FEEL SEXUAL ATTRACTION but are interested in sexual pleasure of some sort. Whether our interest is masturbation, assisted masturbation, fetish, or standard sexual interaction, if WE NEVER FEEL SEXUAL ATTRACTION, we are not represented by the current model.

 

Clearly the model has failed, but since people are still clinging to it, I think they owe us an answer to the question… What do we call the people in red above? Are we supposed to create yet another sexual orientation, and then try to explain to the 99% majority why we need TWO different sexual orientations for people who never feel attraction to anyone? Please tell me that you see how ridiculous that would be!!

 

In the same way that people in prison who would never touch someone of their same gender on the outside will have regular sexual activity with same-sex partners while behind bars because that's what's available, but are still straight, you can be asexual and have sexual activity because you want release or pleasure but still remain ace.

 

 

This is spot on. And yes, it is possible for someone to need a sexual physiological release, and many will do this by masturbation. However, the body knows it's own body and as such it can work better if someone does it for you (and toys are hardly any substitute as the body knows plastic when it feels it). I've also found that a sense of handing over control and having someone take control can be sort of nice. Now some would call this an attraction, and if it is an attraction it is highly specific and so grey, but it's also non-specific and isn't actually an attraction to the person but to the situation and the physicality of it. Ultimately I'd personally hold to the specific attraction model, and I can develop secondary attraction though I prefer the vaguer term grey to demi (it just sort of fits better for me but might not be much different from some demisexuals).

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DogObsessedLianne
17 minutes ago, Marlow1 said:

I have been thinking about these things that you have mentioned above for most of this day, and I am still struggling to come to a conclusion for myself

 

After my brain hemorrhage I experienced neither attraction or libido, kind of similar to how it was before I met my wife. When I told my therapist that I had been exactly like this up until the age of 35 he was shocked and said it is rare for a person that has had no libido to suddenly develop one at the age of 35 years. We went on to explain about the long platonic friendship and the long romantic relationship that led to me becoming sexually attracted and from this information our therapist concluded that I am Demisexual, but emphasised that he had never known anybody to go from no libido to sexually attracted at that age

 

Anyway. To get things up and running again our therapist suggested two things. One that we start dating, having fun times, romantic times, shared intellectual moments and so on, and he, (like my brother the first time around) started keeping notes, and reminding me of the times I said things went well and so on. 

 

He also recommended the following protocol, which I still stick to. Its purpose here is to improve libido, but to be honest I think it is improving my overall health, including brain function, hence the reason why I have suddenly begun to dream in pictures (occasionally) and it might be helping me with attraction. But that bit is complicated because like I have mentioned in pasts post, having enough information to build the needed concepts in my mind is also a very important factor regarding attraction for me.

 

https://www.marksdailyapple.com/a-guide-to-maintaining-a-healthy-sex-drive/

 

The short and long of it seem to be that if I have better health, better brain function both attraction and libido are possible for me, but the day to day experiences with my wife and the context of these experiences also play a role.

 

Even though both attraction and libido has returned I find that both of these only really work when she is close by, in the house etc. When she is not here it is very rare for sexual thoughts to enter my mind, and as ever I still do not get attracted to anybody else. Not in real life, nor celebrities, no porn and so on. 

 

If I am totally honest in my case it feel like the attraction leads to the libido, but in most cases for Allo sexual men I think this might be the other way around???? 

 

When I was young and I had no attraction, or libido the word Asexual had not been invented but it would have fitted me well. Because I have developed sexual attraction to one person, my wife, I identify as Demisexual. I can perform, and I become attracted to my wife a lot but I still can't and don't do many other the things that many Allo sexual men say they do. I cannot visualise my wife, nor anybody else, I cannot tell myself erotic stories in my head, and would even struggle to tell  myself any by speaking out load LOL. Oh golly, yes I really am that boring.... I can't be bothered reading erotica, I firm that boring, and it is the same with pornography. I don't get attracted to anybody else but my wife, I do not masturbate and so on

 

 

I just want to say that I think it's great that your therapist had heard of demisexuality :-)

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neverlove

So studies show that libido is not affected by asexuality. Libido is aslo seperate from attraction.

 

My view is that for about a week every month (hint, hint) I experience a spike in libido and an increaed desire for even non-sexual intimacy, i.e. I start snuggling like a koala bear with my mum. I never seem to notice the change in my snuggling habits, but my mom puts two and two together since all the hugging is a complete 180 from my usual. So I connect libido to hormones etc.

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Marlow1
On 9/17/2019 at 7:21 PM, Dawning said:

Here's some more food for thought: Many of the people who are insisting that an asexual can't have desire, or libido, or feel sexual enjoyment, or whatever other nonsense, are referring to the following:

 

http://wiki.asexuality.org/Primary_vs._secondary_sexual_attraction_model

 

Primary vs. secondary sexual attraction model

This hypothetical model of sexuality takes the position that sexual attraction and desire can each be subdivided into "primary" and "secondary" forms:

  • Primary Sexual Attraction: A sexual attraction to people based on instantly available information (such as their appearance or smell) which may or may not lead to arousal or sexual desire.
  • Secondary Sexual Attraction: A sexual attraction that develops over time based on a person's relationship and emotional connection with another person.
  • Primary Sexual Desire: The desire to engage in sexual activity for the purposes of personal pleasure whether physical, emotional, or both.
  • Secondary Sexual Desire: The desire to engage in sexual activity for the purposes other than personal pleasure, such as the happiness of the other person involved or the conception of children.

It's obviously foolish to add having no libido as a requirement for being asexual, when people of other orientations can have no libido, some libido, or huge libido and still be gay or straight or whatever, but let's dig deeper. Here is the table that this model uses: 

 

Sexual Orientation Primary Attraction? Secondary Attraction? Primary Desire? Secondary Desire?
Sexual Yes Yes Yes Yes
Demisexual No Yes Yes Yes
Asexual No No No Yes

 

This table is supposed to make clear how we should categorize ourselves… but do you notice something missing here? What if you have any interest whatsoever in having orgasms that you don't have to produce with your own efforts, whether or not you feel desire per se, in other words an emotion or a feeling, or just an intellectual interest in an orgasmic experience with assistance, in the same way that you might eat a piece of chocolate not because you're hungry, not because you're craving it, but because it's available and it will produce a pleasant sensation? That would give us this:

 

Sexual Orientation Primary Attraction? Secondary Attraction? Primary Desire? Secondary Desire?
Sexual Yes Yes Yes Yes
Demisexual No Yes Yes Yes

Asexual

???????

No

NO

No

NO

No

YES

Yes

whatever

 

So what do we do with THAT? This model, that we're getting bludgeoned with as proof of not being asexual, doesn't have a category for sex-positive aces, in other words for people who NEVER FEEL SEXUAL ATTRACTION but are interested in sexual pleasure of some sort. Whether our interest is masturbation, assisted masturbation, fetish, or standard sexual interaction, if WE NEVER FEEL SEXUAL ATTRACTION, we are not represented by the current model.

 

Clearly the model has failed, but since people are still clinging to it, I think they owe us an answer to the question… What do we call the people in red above? Are we supposed to create yet another sexual orientation, and then try to explain to the 99% majority why we need TWO different sexual orientations for people who never feel attraction to anyone? Please tell me that you see how ridiculous that would be!!

 

In the same way that people in prison who would never touch someone of their same gender on the outside will have regular sexual activity with same-sex partners while behind bars because that's what's available, but are still straight, you can be asexual and have sexual activity because you want release or pleasure but still remain ace.

 

 

When we discuss these topics on here it can take me a long time to get my head around what folk are saying. Because I do not have a minds eye it can be difficult for me to imagine how other people experience their sexuality. These charts and diagrams that you provide, Dawning, really do help me get my head around things that I normally find very difficult. THANK YOU! 

 

I think I understand what sex favourable asexuality is. It is when a person is not experiencing attraction but nonetheless has a libido and if they decide to have sex with a person this can feel as good as, or even better than masturbation, but they will still not feel attracted to the person

 

I can understand this because I myself never feel attraction to anybody but my wife. So I know what it feels like not to be attracted to folk that generally other folk around me are telling me are drop dead gorgious and so on

 

I have not actually had sex with anybody that I am not attracted to but I can see how a person could, and I can see how they might enjoy it. This makes sense to me

 

Sometimes when I listen to the elaborate stories my wife tells me about what she goes through when she becomes attracted, (boy oh boy is this very different to me), I sometimes get to wondering if I actually do get attracted, and we have discussed this at length many times

 

I do though, because she can be doing pretty much nothing but pottering around, or sunbathing, or bathing or dancing or somethings cute, sensual etc and I can just watch her and she might not even know I am watching her, but as I do I absorb everything about her in that moment and this makes me feel drawn to her and such

 

Folk that do experience sexual attraction, do I think experience it in different ways so it is hard to pinpoint what is actual sexual attraction, I mean in comparison to romantic attraction, sensual attraction and so on. I guess it's both a feeling and then also sexual thoughts that are associated with that feeling and about that particular person, well it is in my case, at least. But like I have said this is very different to how my wife experiences it, what she describes is like from another planet to me

 

Could this happen the other way around, me have attraction but then not bother for some reason not to have sex. Well this has happened to me a couple of times, basically because something happened and it stopped us going ahead with it. But that is not the norm for me

 

But my wife, she is Allosexual and she tells me that she has been attracted many time to many different people but definitely do not follow it through and would not do so. This troubles her a lot, the attraction to other people, I mean. She gets quit upset about the whole thing sometimes. She says that she has to keep herself away from situations where she might get attracted. She says at times it has upset her so much that she feels it is being unfaithful in her mind and so on. I have never had anything like this happen to me, sometimes the whole thing perplexes me

 

Anyway, I raise this matter because when folk say Asexuals can be kind of attracted but choose not to go ahead with it because they do not want the partnered sex I find that hard to distiguish from what Allosexuals are describing when they say they go out of their  way not just to not have sex but to even be thinking of it. This is where I get confused

 

Like I have said, I am still just learning, and with me having no minds eye I often get confused when trying to figure out how others are experiencing attraction, desire and so on

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neverlove
4 minutes ago, Marlow1 said:

When we discuss these topics on here it can take me a long time to get my head around what folk are saying. Because I do not have a minds eye it can be difficult for me to imagine how other people experience their sexuality. These charts and diagrams that you provide, Dawning, really do help me get my head around things that I normally find very difficult. THANK YOU! 

 

I think I understand what sex favourable asexuality is. It is when a person is not experiencing attraction but nonetheless have a libido and if they decide to have sex with a person this can feel as good as, or even better than masturbation, but they will still not feel attracted to the person

 

I can understand this because I myself never feel attraction to anybody but my wife. So I know what it feels like not to be attracted to folk that generally other folk around me are telling me are drop dead gorgious and so on

 

I have not actually had sex with anybody that I am not attracted to but I can see how a person could, and I can see how they might enjoy it. This makes sense to me

 

Sometimes when I listen to the elaborate stories my wife tells me about what she goes through when she becomes attracted, (boy oh boy is this very different to me), I sometimes get to wondering if I actually do get attracted, and we have discussed this at length many times

 

I do though, because she can be doing pretty much nothing but pottering around, or sunbathing, or bathing or danding or somethings cute, sensual etc and I can just watch her and she might not even know I am watching her, but as I do I absorb everything about her in that moment and this makes me feel drawn to her and such

 

Folk that do experience sexual attraction, do I think experience it in different ways so it is hard to pinpoint what is sexual attraction, I mean in comparison to romantic attraction, sensual attraction and so on. I guess it's both a feeling and then also thoughts that are sexual about that particular person, well it is in my case. But like I have said this is very different to how my wife experiences it, what she describes is like off another planet to me

 

Could this happen the other way around, me have attraction but then not bother for some reason not to have sex. Well this has happened to me a couple of times, basically because something happened and it stopped us going ahead with it

 

But my wife, she is Allo sexual and she tells me that she has been attracted many time to many different people but definitely do not follow it through and would not do so. This troubles her a lot, the attraction to other people, I mean. She gets quit upset about the whole thing sometimes. She says that she has to keep herself away from situations where she might get attracted. She says at times it has upset her so much that she feels it is being unfaithful in her mind and so on. I have never had anything like this happen to me, sometimes the whole thing perplexed me

 

Anyway, I raise this matter because when folk say Asexuals can be kind of attracted but choose not to go ahead with it because they do not want the partnered sex I find that hard to distiguish from what Allosexuals are describing when they say they go out of their  way not just to not have sex but to even be thinking of it. This is where I get confused

 

Like I have said, I am still just learning, and with me having no minds eye I often get confused when trying to figure out how others are experiencing attraction, desire and so on

I feel like I get confused about the difference between romantic and sexual attraction. They sound like the same thing to me. However, I've realized I don't experience either so that's probably why I don't (and probably can't) understand.

 

My understanding of sex favorable asexuality is that if I could take a pill, with no side-effects, that made me feel the way partnered sex does, I would lose my interest in partnered sex. Of course this is hypothetical since I'm a virgin. 

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neverlove
37 minutes ago, Marlow1 said:

Anyway, I raise this matter because when folk say Asexuals can be kind of attracted but choose not to go ahead with it because they do not want the partnered sex I find that hard to distiguish from what Allosexuals are describing when they say they go out of their  way not just to not have sex but to even be thinking of it. This is where I get confused

So I'm going to use the coffee simile here.

 

So an allosexual avoiding attraction is a lot like avoiding smelling coffee because they're trying to avoid the caffeine. They don't want to be tempted by the smell and end up drinking it (having sex) when they aren't supposed to.

 

A romantic asexual in this situation can smell the coffee and like the smell (feel romantic attraction) but ultimately they hate the taste of the coffee (sex) and won't want to drink it.

 

Does that help?

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Marlow1
10 minutes ago, neverlove said:

I feel like I get confused about the difference between romantic and sexual attraction. They sound like the same thing to me. However, I've realized I don't experience either so that's probably why I don't (and probably can't) understand.

 

My understanding of sex favorable asexuality is that if I could take a pill, with no side-effects, that made me feel the way partnered sex does, I would lose my interest in partnered sex. Of course this is hypothetical since I'm a virgin. 

See, this is me being presumptious again. I was thinking that sex favourable folk would have actually tried sex to know. But I am contradicting myself here because I am always saying that folk definitely do not need to try sex to know who they are. For example, I know for certain many gay folk have never had sex but thry know they are gay. I new I was hetero even though I had never had sex. Somebody asked me once, how I new, I said I do not know how I know, I just know

 

I now sometimes identify as Heteroromantic Demisexual, simply to give the other person more insight. This particularly helps when talking to my therapist or when we attend our support group

 

I am sorry that I have been so presumptious about Sex Favourable Asexuals. I do really struggle understanding these things sometimes, but the more I do, it really does help me

 

Before I had sex I did kind of think I would one day but the act itself was never important to me, it was the romantic side of things I thought a lot more about. But I still had no idea whom I might do these things with

 

It is hard for me to remember, since all that was a long time ago but I think maybe I could be classed as favourable since I was not against it, but then again I might have been indifferent. I was definatrly indifferent following the brain hemoragge. My interest only comes after I am actually attracted

 

Although I am experiencing things very differently from you I think as time goes by I am grasping the concept more so

 

 

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Marlow1
6 minutes ago, neverlove said:

So we have a few groups described here so I'm going to use the coffee simile here.

 

So an allosexual avoiding attraction is a lot like avoiding smelling coffee because they're trying to avoid the caffeine. They don't want to be tempted by the smell and end up drinking it (having sex) when they aren't supposed to.

 

A romantic asexual in this situation can smell the coffee and like the smell (feel romantic attraction) but ultimately they hate the taste of the coffee (sex) and won't want to drink it.

 

Does that help?

Yes indeed this does help, and I should have know this because before I started having sexual attraction (at 35 years old) I was behaving like the Romantic Asexual that you are describing

 

I think that because the end result is that no sex occurs this is why my wife and I had such confusion. I do not experience either romantic or sexual attraction to anybody but her, but my wife say, yes but you could

 

I still believe I cannot and will not but so that she does not worry about it I do now actively stay away from situations where something could so called happen. Crazy this lot isn't it LOL....... Even my wife is laughing I just told her what I typed

 

But yep, definately, although the sex with other people never happens for either of us, for my wife it is a struggle, for me it is a walk in the park 😉

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neverlove

@Marlow1, I will never have a problem with anyone that is being as respectful and polite as you. I don't think you have anything to apologize for, we are all learning here. I wrote off the a-spectrum at first because I read the descriptions and thought "these describe me, but I'm interested in sex, that means they must be making things up!" 😂 

 

 

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Marlow1
15 hours ago, DogObsessedLianne said:

I just want to say that I think it's great that your therapist had heard of demisexuality 🙂

It is indeed. He was the person that directed us to AVEN. Had we have never have found this site my wife and I would be divorced by now. Our lives where in the most terrible of messes when we arrived at our therapists door. Me I had zero idea that people that love each other can get attracted to other people, that folk can see pictures in their head and actually see themselves canoodling with other folk in their minds and so on. My wife seriously did not believe me when I was saying that I do not get attracted to other women and the more I said it the more she thought I was playing with her head. It took some time but whilst we were with this therapist we figured out that I had Aphantasia and that I am probably Demisexual. My wife too learned that her more usual state is Allosexual but when under extreme stress her mind and thoughts lean more towards Hypersexuality. Her efforts to resist this and whilst dealing with all the upset of me loosing attraction towards her etc, led to a lot of anxiety and obsessive behaviours. Fortunately with the help of therapy and AVEN most of this has stopped now

 

I must mention though it has not all been plain sailing. Before this particular therapist we had a a few that definitely  did not have a clue. These therapist could have done more harm than good if we would have stayed with them

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Dawning
1 hour ago, Marlow1 said:

.. I raise this matter because when folk say Asexuals can be kind of attracted but choose not to go ahead with it because they do not want the partnered sex I find that hard to distiguish from what Allosexuals are describing when they say they go out of their  way not just to not have sex but to even be thinking of it. This is where I get confused

You're right to be confused, because what some people are suggesting doesn't make sense! Being asexual means NEVER being sexually attracted in ANY way; sexual desire and enjoyment of orgasms are totally different things from attraction, no matter how much some people try to claim otherwise.

 

Sexual attraction: Woo hoo, that person is really hot!

Sexual desire: I have a feeling in my body that makes me eager for sexual release!

Enjoyment of orgasms: Orgasms feel good. Maybe I'll go have one before the movie comes on.

 

Now granted, with an allosexual person, those first two will often occur together or in rapid succession… but not always. And remember that for a "normal" person, romantic attraction will typically ALSO occur with sexual attraction and desire, but we recognize that those are very different things for US... although just wait, sooner or later the sex-averse crowd is going to start claiming that you don't get to qualify as asexual unless you are also aromantic.

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neverlove
30 minutes ago, Dawning said:

You're right to be confused, because what some people are suggesting doesn't make sense! Being asexual means NEVER being sexually attracted in ANY way; sexual desire and enjoyment of orgasms are totally different things from attraction, no matter how much some people try to claim otherwise.

 

Sexual attraction: Woo hoo, that person is really hot!

Sexual desire: I have a feeling in my body that makes me eager for sexual release!

Enjoyment of orgasms: Orgasms feel good. Maybe I'll go have one before the movie comes on.

 

Now granted, with an allosexual person, those first two will often occur together or in rapid succession… but not always. And remember that for a "normal" person, romantic attraction will typically ALSO occur with sexual attraction and desire, but we recognize that those are very different things for US... although just wait, sooner or later the sex-averse crowd is going to start claiming that you don't get to qualify as asexual unless you are also aromantic.

I think he was referring to romantic attraction. I agree the phrasing was a little confusing though, but I think that was a product of his own confusion.

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Marlow1

@Dawning and @neverlove I was originally meaning Sexual Attraction, because on here sometimes it does sound like folk are saying that a person can be sexually attracted but not desire partnered sex and so be Asexual. But I changed my thoughts on it when @neverlovementioned Romantic Attraction and the that same person not wanting to have sex even when romantically attracted. I was like this in the past but had not really considered that this could be what some folk here mean. I do still wonder though are we all on the same page with this? Are some people here saying that Asexuals can experience Sexual Attraction but then after this feel that it is not appropriate for them to go ahead and have the actual sex??? 

 

I guess in the real world folk could get confused with this since romantic attraction could be assumed to be sexual attraction (My wife and I dealt with this confusion for some time) . But here at AVEN I think we need to make the distinction because if my logic is correct an Asexual person can experience Romantic Attraction but not desire partnered sex but if they are experiencing Sexual Attraction but then not wanting partnered sex, is this not more like what many Allosexual folk go through??? 

 

Keeping in mind I am definitely not an expert on Allosexuals, but in our therapy group lots and lots of Allo folk claim this to be their main difficulty. They complain about modern day culture making them feel pressured to have sex too soon, they want the relationship to blossom first. These folk tell me that they are already strongly attracted sexually to the person but for a variety of reasons they would rather wait

 

My wife and I got confused about this matter too. Early on when we first started with therapy we discussed how we felt when we met. I definitely only saw her as a friend. When the romantic relationship began I felt closer to her but it was not deep, instead it grew over time. The Sexual Attraction came later. My wife tells me that she was always Sexually Attracted from the start, even at the platonic stage. She said she was either having to suppress it or at times it wained because she did not feel desired by me, but then it returned when I would propose some quality time together etc. Her desire for me still follows this pattern, but with me I feel approximately the same all the time, very attached, like she is ultra special to me, but I tune into it more and more at times, and that is when I become sexually attracted, I never have to suppress it.

 

Anyway, I have wandered onto me again here, the point of the post is that sometimes with this not desiring partnered sex it does sound like folk are saying Asexuals can be Sexually Attracted but so long as they don't desire to follow it through with partnered sex then they are Asexual, this does not make sense to me

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neverlove

So there are two definitions for asexuality. Not feeling sexual attraction, and no desire for partnered sex. People can identify with one or both of these definitions.

 

I think part of why this is confusing, is that we are putting people with vastly different experiences with sexuality under the same heading. 

 

I think having romantic and sexual attraction while not wishing to have sex would be very confusing. Maybe it's sort of like women with childbirth, while they're in labor they might think "this is awful, I'm never doing this again" but later on they look at pregnancy like a wonderful thing. I'm not sure...

 

Basically we probably should've been the ones called allosexuals (other sexuals) because if you aren't straight, gay, pan, or bi, you're a-spectrum.

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Marlow1
20 hours ago, neverlove said:

So there are two definitions for asexuality. Not feeling sexual attraction, and no desire for partnered sex. People can identify with one or both of these definitions.

 

I think part of why this is confusing, is that we are putting people with vastly different experiences with sexuality under the same heading. 

 

I think having romantic and sexual attraction while not wishing to have sex would be very confusing. Maybe it's sort of like women with childbirth, while they're in labor they might think "this is awful, I'm never doing this again" but later on they look at pregnancy like a wonderful thing. I'm not sure...

 

Basically we probably should've been the ones called allosexuals (other sexuals) because if you aren't straight, gay, pan, or bi, you're a-spectrum.

Yes, there seems to be two definitions, one is lack of sexual attraction, the other is not desiring partnered sex. If both are the case within one person, as they were for me before I met my wife, this I understand might sometimes be categorised as Aroace, I am not sure???? It can also be lack of libido, which can be treated and in these cases I think attraction can be improved, but again I am not 100% sure? 

 

Up until recently I thought it was not experiencing the attraction that was the deciding factor as to if a person is Asexual or not. Lots of people that do not experience sexual attraction do still have sex anyway. I realise some are desperately unhappy about it, others don't get much from it but are not bothered, then there are others that do enjoy it and experience orgasm etc from it. It is the later group I feel that might refer to themselves as Sex Favourable Asexuals, but this I think is where the controversy lies???? 

 

If we use the original definition of just no sexual attraction then Sex Favourable Asexuality makes sense. But if we are changing the definition to simply not wanting partnered sex, then Sex Favourable does not make as much sense. Plus if folk are having sex when they really do not want to that tends to sound like coercion, or something much worse, and folk are not going to want to see that as a legitimised thing, at least not in some cases

 

This is where the difficulty lies when we are not keeping to the definition of Asexuality is a lack of Sexual Attaction

 

Also, most people in society say they do experience sexual attraction. Some rarely some often. Those that say they experience it rarely, like me, tend to label themselves Grey, Demi etc, but those that experience Sexual Attraction easily, frequently, immediately etc tend to refer to themselves as Allosexual. If a lack of Sexual Attraction is how we define Asexuality then these two groups are both Sexuals. But given the endless struggles folk that are Grey, Demi have that relate to their very limited ability to become attracted, in some circumstances (like me) they need AVEN so they can figure out what Allosexual folk are talking about, because I can tell you this, without AVEN, I never would have ever figured many many things out. And my wife would have never figured out what I was meaning regarding a whole list of things

 

This I believe is why AVEN encourages folk that experience limited attraction to this board because although they could be regarded as Sexuals, their experiences in many ways resemble the experiences of Asexuals more so than what Allosexual go through. Sex Favourable Asexuals would not fully meet the criteria for Greysexuality because they are not experiencing Sexual Attraction ever! 

 

 

 

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Marlow1

Sorry, I think I might have said that wrong. I don't think I was using the term Aroace in the correct context. An Aroace does not experience either romantic or sexual attraction, it has nothing to do with desire. 

 

I asked on another thread if anybody had the correct term for an Asexual that does not experience both attraction and desire. I thought maybe it is a non-libidoist, but it seems that too maybe wrong. 

 

I do hope I am not distracting everybody with this confusion. I am just kind of frustrated because I cannot remember the term

 

 

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neverlove
23 hours ago, Marlow1 said:

Yes, there seems to be two definitions, one is lack of sexual attraction, the other is not desiring partnered sex. If both are the case within one person, as they were for me before I met my wife, this I understand might sometimes be categorised as Aroace, I am not sure???? It can also be lack of libido, which can be treated and in these cases I think attraction can be improved, but again I am not 100% sure? 

 

Up until recently I thought it was not experiencing the attraction that was the deciding factor as to if a person is Asexual or not. Lots of people that do not experience sexual attraction do still have sex anyway. I realise some are desperately unhappy about it, others don't get much from it but are not bothered, then there are others that do enjoy it and experience orgasm etc from it. It is the later group I feel that might refer to themselves as Sex Favourable Asexuals, but this I think is where the controversy lies???? 

 

If we use the original definition of just no sexual attraction then Sex Favourable Asexuality makes sense. But if we are changing the definition to simply not wanting partnered sex, then Sex Favourable does not make as much sense. Plus if folk are having sex when they really do not want to that tends to sound like coercion, or something much worse, and folk are not going to want to see that as a legitimised thing, at least not in some cases

 

This is where the difficulty lies when we are not keeping to the definition of Asexuality is a lack of Sexual Attaction

 

Also, most people in society say they do experience sexual attraction. Some rarely some often. Those that say they experience it rarely, like me, tend to label themselves Grey, Demi etc, but those that experience Sexual Attraction easily, frequently, immediately etc tend to refer to themselves as Allosexual. If a lack of Sexual Attraction is how we define Asexuality then these two groups are both Sexuals. But given the endless struggles folk that are Grey, Demi have that relate to their very limited ability to become attracted, in some circumstances (like me) they need AVEN so they can figure out what Allosexual folk are talking about, because I can tell you this, without AVEN, I never would have ever figured many many things out. And my wife would have never figured out what I was meaning regarding a whole list of things

 

This I believe is why AVEN encourages folk that experience limited attraction to this board because although they could be regarded as Sexuals, their experiences in many ways resemble the experiences of Asexuals more so than what Allosexual go through. Sex Favourable Asexuals would not fully meet the criteria for Greysexuality because they are not experiencing Sexual Attraction ever! 

 

 

 

Congratulations 🎉 

You now understand the current issue.This is a near perfect outline of the entire problem.

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DogObsessedLianne
On 9/18/2019 at 11:15 PM, neverlove said:

I feel like I get confused about the difference between romantic and sexual attraction. They sound like the same thing to me. However, I've realized I don't experience either so that's probably why I don't (and probably can't) understand.

 

My understanding of sex favorable asexuality is that if I could take a pill, with no side-effects, that made me feel the way partnered sex does, I would lose my interest in partnered sex. Of course this is hypothetical since I'm a virgin. 

This might help: if you want to draw them/admire from a far then its aesthetic attraction. 

If you want to be passionately loving and kissy and an item and a belonging to that person (in other words want to date them), some might explain it better than me with me being aro (I just want healthy friendships in contrast), that's romantic attraction.

 

If you think someone sexy, would "do them", feel the urge to actively do stuff to their body then that is sexual attraction. 

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Iam9man
7 hours ago, DogObsessedLianne said:

If you want to be passionately loving and kissy and an item and a belonging to that person (in other words want to date them), some might explain it better than me with me being aro (I just want healthy friendships in contrast), that's romantic attraction.

Well described 😊

 

I’d say you’ve probably covered both romantic and sensual attraction in one.

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Marlow1

I have explained more about all this below on this other thread

 

 

As I have mentioned in other posts my wife and I started out as friends, she was a friend of by brothers wife and when they became engaged, got married, had children and so on, my wife (then friend) and I started to see each other more and more in the context of the two families coming together

 

At that time we would touch slightly. For instance, a hug when saying good bye. This behaviour was not saying 'you are very special to me it was more 'I recognise you as part of the family' but unconsciously, I think, it may have been the beginnings of the later relationship

 

When we moved into the Romantic Relationship, we would touch more, but not sexually, it was more holding hands, arms around each other on the sofa, a peck goodbye and so on. The emphasis at this time was not really on touch it was more about having fun, sharing romantic times, learning about each other, sharing our ideas, inspirations, intellectual stuff and so on

 

The romantic thing grew where we would fall asleep together, and hold each other for long periods, and eventually this turned into sexual attraction for me

 

I can only really explain this like this because we have gone over this, what seems like, a thousand times in therapy.

 

My wife's experience again, was totally different to mine. She was sexually attracted to me pretty much from the beginning, but because of past experiences she did not want sex. She recalls things in a similar order to me but instead she explains how she was suppressing her feelings, holding back from the sex and so on. It was the entire opposite for me

 

We both still experience the relationship on very different ways. This person here in this video does a pretty good job of explaining Aphantasia, but I am seeing less than this I see zero

 

 

In my wife's minds eye the pictures are this clear, only hers are moving, she can zoom into them, hear sound and experience her other senses, manipulate them, zoom into them, engross herself into them. She is doing the exact thing in her mind in regards to sexual stuff too. This is all unbelievable for me, but knowing this helps me understand how she can become attracted so easily when I literally cannot get attracted easily, at all

 

 

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