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Let’s get this (sex fav.) schism started!

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CBC

I would really hate to live in a world where everyone considered disagreeing to be synonymous with being negative.

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neverlove
1 minute ago, CBC said:

I would really hate to live in a world where everyone considered disagreeing to be synonymous with being negative.

Would you say this is a positive comment?

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Dawning

Maybe we're trying to say the same thing in different ways?

 

Attraction and desire are different things:

 

It's possible to experience sexual attraction without a desire to have sex with that person; you can have attraction for someone who is beautiful but who you know is a disgusting person that you wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole, and so don't desire sex with.

 

It's possible to desire to have sex with someone without being attracted to them... or else all the ugly hookers in the world would be out of business.

 

And, it's possible to just have the desire for sexual release that you can just lay back and enjoy without having to do the work for it yourself, such that whoever is available that you would feel comfortable touching your body would suffice, without attraction to, OR desire for sex with, them.

 

Does that sound like hair-splitting? That could be a valid point… But remember, to allosexual people, the difference between romantic and sexual attraction is an even finer hair, one so fine that the vast majority of them refuse to believe it even exists, even though we make that distinction here in this forum every day.

 

Which hairs do we split, and which hairs do we not split? It's the same kind of question as comes up in the gender arena; at what point do we stop accepting new genders as valid, and start telling people that they just have to pick from what's already available, and that that has to define them? Who do we exclude from our little life raft of asexuality in the stormy sea of allosexuals? It's human nature for people who have been excluded to be eager to exclude others in turn, but I say that we should all rise above that urge and embrace inclusion instead! In a world where 99% of people feel sexual attraction, it's a humongous thing to never feel that attraction; we are such a tiny group, we should be embracing each other rather than battling over definitions! We should focus on how lack of attraction makes us the same, rather than telling people, "Unless you eat your turkey sandwich on whole wheat bread like we do, you can't be a member of our club"!

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Iam9man
5 minutes ago, CBC said:

I would really hate to live in a world where everyone considered disagreeing to be synonymous with being negative.

Me too 😊

 

I do find definition debates tend to get negative at some point or other, quite apart from any difference in opinions though.

 

So whilst I don’t necessarily endorse exclusionism (nor even the appearance of vigilante modding) I do like the idea of a “safe space” for people who feel they’ve experienced negativity elsewhere on AVEN for falling on the more sensual side of asexuality.

 

So, in my opinion, all welcome to join in the discussion here but please be respectful of each other and don’t turn this into a war zone or definition debate 😊

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Iam9man
3 minutes ago, Dawning said:

Which hairs do we split, and which hairs do we not split? It's the same kind of question as comes up in the gender arena; at what point do we stop accepting new genders as valid, and start telling people that they just have to pick from what's already available, and that that has to define them?

This is a good point. I see more talk in gender discussions on labels being “descriptive” rather than “prescriptive”. Maybe we could learn from this when discussing orientations?

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CBC
10 minutes ago, neverlove said:

Would you say this is a positive comment?

Sure, why not.

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neverlove
24 minutes ago, Sally said:

That is a very inappropriate demand.  This is a forum for everyone who doesn't post against the ToS; no  one commenter controls it.  

*sigh*

 

I didn’t demand, I asked. And I obviously don’t control the forum or even this thread. 

 

May I ask what purpose you had replying this way here despite the topic other than to cause contention?

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neverlove
3 minutes ago, CBC said:

Sure, why not.

*sigh*

 

You used “hate”, “disagreeing”, and “negative”—one per line—in a pointed comment meant to be a snipe.

 

I don’t think you really believe that was a positive comment, but that’s not even the point. I’m trying to create a safe space for people who disagree with you. So what are you trying to accomplish here?

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neverlove

*packed bags and moved to tea and sympathy*

 

I’ve been informed the tolerance for debates is lower there...

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CBC
36 minutes ago, neverlove said:

*sigh*

 

You used “hate”, “disagreeing”, and “negative”—one per line—in a pointed comment meant to be a snipe.

 

I don’t think you really believe that was a positive comment, but that’s not even the point. I’m trying to create a safe space for people who disagree with you. So what are you trying to accomplish here?

Good lord. I think you're really overthinking my usage of the word 'hate'. 

 

And no, I don't believe it was a positive comment. Nor a negative one. It was a simple statement of opinion.

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Marlow1

Earlier I mentioned how when I was young the term Asexuality had not been invented and since it had not neither had the other words and terms we use here at AVEN. This was not a massive big deal for me back then since I did not have a partner. And even after I got married there was still not much of a problem since my body had changed and I could perform, and although I was inexperienced, my relationship with my wife has always been where she can and should lead the way, and she does do this, in the most beautiful of ways

 

My problems began after my brain hemorrhage. I lost my ability to become attracted to my wife, which meant we had to talk about it. This is were the trouble started because what I believed was the norm, is not only not the norm in society, it definitely is not the norm for an Allosexual like my wife

 

In my very limited way for understanding I tried to explain to my wife what was going on for me. 

 

I don't know if any of you have ever read the posts here about embarrassing or inappropriate things Asexuals say and do, but although I am clearly not Asexual in the true sense of the word, a tonne of these things would apply to me before I arrived at AVEN. And although I do know now why these things are perceived as not OK by my wife, even now, I still do some of them because I forget that Allosexual people see the world the way they do

 

Here is one example

 

My wife loves dressing up in sexy clothes but she rarely takes me with her when buying the actual items that she is going to wear. Why? Because when we are in the shop I start asking her to wear certain items. I see them and think she will look nice in them

 

There is nothing wrong with that, I hear you say. That's normal! Well it would be except when a picture in the shop of the said item is rather pornographic and the person wearing it is being so called seductive, I don't see this. I will look at the picture and it looks much the same as any other picture, and I will say things to my wife like how great I think she might look in the said outfit

 

My wife goes crazy. She feels that the daft picture is sexually attractive for me and that the woman in the picture is desirable for me, and that I am telling her she would look as sexy as the woman in the outfit. And she does not want to feel compared. She says don't compare me to her, stop looking at her, but I miss the point that she is getting at

 

Can you see how this is? My wife is seeing sexual stuff in things where I am not seeing it. I can only really perceive something as sexy when it relates to her. She does not see this situation like this, she sees the other woman and says I am bringing this other woman into our sex life

 

This may just look like a bit of a tiff between to idiot people. But in reality I can make mistakes like this over and over. These things were less noticeable when we were younger because there were less pornographic images on public display. But with me, seeing as I do not see the seduction and stuff in others, I don't always recognise how these things can affect my wife. And so it comes over to her entirely differently than how it is meant

 

Only, by coming here to AVEN and reading the comments from folk that label under the Asexual Umberella does my wife finally accept that there is this major difference between the two of us. She is Allosexual, and when upset leaning towards the hypersexual (I will explain this more another time). And I am Demisexual, and in comparison to how my wife is experiencing the world, (her having a minds eye and such), I am in many instances leaning towards the  Asexual, even though I am not actually Asexual myself

 

Hope this is making sense as to why knowing plenty about Asexuality, Greysexuality, Demisexuality and so on is very important for me. I need the words, for two reasons. One so that I can understand how Allosexual folk see the world and so I don't keep insulting my wife and the other, so that I can understand myself, talk to myself and have the words to explain all this stuff to myself. Folk with Aphantasia lack pictures and so we need the descriptive words to make sense of the world

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neverlove
14 minutes ago, CBC said:

Good lord. I think you're really overthinking my usage of the word 'hate'. 

 

And no, I don't believe it was a positive comment. Nor a negative one. It was a simple statement of opinion.

*siiiigghhh*

 

It wasn’t really a simple statement of opinion either, because the obvious implication is that this is the opinion not everyone here shares. It was a comment meant to imply I am an unreasonable person that can’t handle disagreement. It was also passive aggressive which I’m horrible with.

 

Yet, this is still not the point.

 

What are you trying to accomplish here? Another thread was just shut down for a cool off because of this argument. You also mentioned previously keeping your silence on this thread. What changed? Was it that the other thread was shut down and you didn’t want to take the cool down to heart? It can’t be that you think you can convince the people here. We’ve all talked at length and are pretty well aware of each-other’s thoughts on the subject. 

 

So what are you trying to accomplish here?

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CBC

I wasn't intending to come in and debate the validity of anyone's identity as asexual, even if I disagreed, because I'm aware that's utterly futile. That's what I meant. The thread took another turn due to other posters, so now I'm commenting on the topic at hand. I actually (mostly) stopped being involved in the thread that was locked, so it has nothing to do with that.

 

Anyway, I'm out.

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neverlove
9 minutes ago, Marlow1 said:

Earlier I mentioned how when I was young the term Asexuality had not been invented and since it had not neither had the other words and terms we use here at AVEN. This was not a massive big deal for me back then since I did not have a partner. And even after I got married there was still not much of a problem since my body had changed and I could perform, and although I was inexperienced, my relationship with my wife has always been where she can and should lead the way, and she does do this, in the most beautiful of ways

 

My problems began after my brain hemorrhage. I lost my ability to become attracted to my wife, which meant we had to talk about it. This is were the trouble started because what I believed was the norm, is not only not the norm in society, it definitely is not the norm for an Allo sexual like my wife

 

In my very limited way for understanding I tried to explain to my wife what was going on for me. 

 

I don't know if any of you have ever read the posts here about embarrassing or inappropriate things Asexuals say and do, but although I am clearly not Asexual in the true sense of the word, a tonne of these things would apply to me before I arrived at AVEN. And although I do know now why these things are perceived as not OK by my wife, even now, I still do some them because I forget that Allo sexual people see the world the way they do

 

Here is one example

 

My wife loves dressing up sexually but she rarely takes me with her when buying the actual items that she is going to wear. Why? Because when we are in the shop I start asking her to wear certain items. I see them and thing she will look nice in them

 

There is nothing wrong with that, I here you say. That's normal! Well it would be except when a picture in the shop of the said item is rather pornography and the person wearing it is being so called seductive, I don't see this. I will look at the picture and it looks much the same as any other picture, and I will say things to my wife like how great I think she might look in the said outfit

 

My wife goes crazy. She feels that the daft picture is sexually attractive for me and that the woman in the picture is desirable for me, and that I am telling her she would look that sexy in that outfit. And she does not want to feel compared

 

Can you see how this is? My wife is seeing sexual stuff in things where I am not seeing it. I can only really perceive something as sexy when it relates to her. She does not see this situation like this, she sees the other woman and says I am bringing this other woman into our sex life

 

This may just look like a bit of a tiff between to idiot people. But in reality I can make mistakes like this over and over. These things were less noticeable when we were younger because there were less pornographic images on public display. But with me, seeing as I do not see the seduction and stuff in others, I don't always recognise how these things can affect my wife. And so it comes over to her entirely differently than how it is meant

 

Only, by coming here to AVEN and reading the comments from folk that label under the Asexual Umberella does. My wife finally accept that there is this major difference between the two of us. She is Allosexual, and when upset leaning towards the hypersexual (I will explain this more another time). And I am Demisexual, and in comparison to how my wife is experiencing the world, (her having a minds eye and such), I am in many instances leaning towards the  Asexual, even though I am not actually Asexual myself

 

Hope this is making sense as to why knowing plenty about Asexuality, Greysexuality, Demisexuality and so on is very important for me. I need the words, for two reasons. One so that I can understand how Allosexual folk see the world and so I don't keep insulting my wife and so I can understand myself, talk to myself and have the words to explain all this stuff to myself. Folk with Aphantasia lack pictures and so we need the descriptive words to make sense of the world

I hope this isn’t insensitive—your story is so very interesting. I would say I understand inherently sexual material, but miss most interactions displaying sexual interest. Some things I read about and then try to apply, but I am never really confident in those assessments.

AVEN was also helpful for me because the explanation of the identities helped me understand why I was so frustrated romantic/sexual culture. 

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gisiebob

your simple take on a complex thought, that in silhouette I agree with, is the reason why someone else's simple take doesn't sit well with you.

 

does entrenching ourselves in pillow forts of opposition help us? I hope not.

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DogObsessedLianne

Hm. Firstly thanks for trying to make a safe space. We are all on here ultimately to either learn more about ourselves (which is probably a lifelong process speaking generally) and/or hopefully to help others make sense of themselves also, and possibly to be some sort of community even with the aid of imperfect technology (the purely written word of a forum or social media etc is lacking in most of the aspects of human communication), but we often have to make do because we are a spread out bunch and often turn to here for the support we can't get elsewhere. It's just a shame that some people can't be nice. Often I think many debates are based on the limitations of language. It's unfortunate and I hope this thread gets back onto it's original purpose asap.

 

I too have had problems posting. I'm now at the self awareness that I think many of my past difficulties in relationships have been down to me being aromantic and not necessarily my asexuality. I struggle with the passionate side of things: the passionate kissing for example which usually puts me off before the intercourse! Now, I don't know what I experience be it grey-heterosexuality or that I'm just personally sex favourable (I have quite a crude physiological approach), probably depending on what you describe as sexual attraction and how all this ties in with me disliking the "passionate embrace" and passionate kissing etc. And I don't know if I should just shrug and admit defeat! The problem is that if it is sexual attraction it is rare and definitely vague and POSSIBLY under particular circumstances (though I haven't pin pointed what if that is the case), and ultimately the grey has more in common with the A anyway. But when I've asked questions on here I have been verbally attacked, which puts me off somewhat.

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Iam9man
3 minutes ago, DogObsessedLianne said:

But when I've asked questions on here I have been verbally attacked, which puts me off somewhat

I’m sorry to hear that ☹️

 

I have these types of conversation over PM these days, as I don’t particularly like being verbally attacked.

 

If you or anyone wants to discuss any specific questions over PM I’d be happy to 😊

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Arodash
1 minute ago, Iam9man said:

I’m sorry to hear that ☹️

 

I have these types of conversation over PM these days, as I don’t particularly like being verbally attacked.

 

If you or anyone wants to discuss any specific questions over PM I’d be happy to 😊

Seconded! Conversation is good and fun

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Marlow1
14 hours ago, neverlove said:

I hope this isn’t insensitive—your story is so very interesting. I would say I understand inherently sexual material, but miss most interactions displaying sexual interest. Some things I read about and then try to apply, but I am never really confident in those assessments.

AVEN was also helpful for me because the explanation of the identities helped me understand why I was so frustrated romantic/sexual culture. 

Are you meaning stuff like flirting, sex jokes, crushes etc? I am pretty useless with these things too. 

 

My wife and I were friends for two years, and then romantic partners for a further two years, I never expected to become sexually attracted but I did once I new her really really well

 

My wife had had a lot of problems with her ex, so bad it had made her afraid to have a sexual relationship. Me not wanting sex with her made it easier for her to cope, and heal. She never pressurized me for sex, not ever, and I think it was because she did not pressurize me that I then did become sexually attracted to her. It is as if without the pressure my mind can go that way, but with pressure it cannot

 

More recently I had a brain hemorrhage and I could not remember much of our relationship. I new I loved my wife but when she or anybody spoke about our past I could not remember it. I did not notice, but I was not attracted to her anymore. When she finally explained all the craziness that she was suffering because of all this I was shocked, I had no awareness. 

 

We ended up in therapy and lucky for us our therapist new all about AVEN, Asexuality, Demisexuality and so on. He told us we needed to start afresh, to figure out what things we did all them many years ago and give it a go at redoing them so that either my memory of it all might return, or new memories might be created. 

 

We started dating again. We created lots of fun, creative, romantic, intellectually stimulating times together and we removed the pressure for sex. Over time I was able to rebuild the concepts in my mind about my wife and our relationship and the attraction returned

 

Although we have managed to sort a lot of things out there is still this massive difference as to how we are experiencing the relationship, particularly the sexual part, but bit by bit things are getting better, and we are learning how to respect and accept the differences. We are both much much happier now. 

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Arodash
14 hours ago, CBC said:

I would really hate to live in a world where everyone considered disagreeing to be synonymous with being negative.

I think we sadly do live in that kind of a world, but! Good people understand that though we can disagree on stuff and still be civil respecting each others rights to have different views while seeking out common ground.

 

This is how Daryl Davis deradicalized 200 kkk members, seriously I encourage everyone to check this guy out he is awesome. 

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neverlove

Wow @Marlow1, your story is incredible! Do you remember much about the past now? Do you have trouble remembering things since your brain hemorrhage as well or only what happened before? Do you write things down to help with your condition?

 

Feel free to ignore my questions if they make you uncomfortable. You and your wife’s story is incredible. 

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Marlow1
On 9/7/2019 at 1:36 AM, neverlove said:

Wow @Marlow1, your story is incredible! Do you remember much about the past now? Do you have trouble remembering things since your brain hemorrhage as well or only what happened before? Do you write things down to help with your condition?

 

Feel free to ignore my questions if they make you uncomfortable. You and your wife’s story is incredible. 

@neverloveYes, my episodic memory is still poor. The brain hemorrhage has contributed towards this, but most probably the Aphantasia too

 

 

My wife deepest sadness is that if she dies before me, apart from photographs and videos, I will never see her again. She really does go to pieces about this. 

 

What we have started doing is putting Albums together. These are rather like scrapbooks with pictures and commentaries. We have also made some home movies. And a really special thing that my wife loves doing is downloading cartoon images of a cute woman that looks like herself and editing the picture so that it looks even more like her

 

Recently, a friend told us that we might be able to get proper 3 or 4 minute cartoons made up online. We are about to look into it. It would be great to be able to get something like this done for all the special events in our lives

 

I know how devastating this whole things sound but in my case I have never been able to visualise, nor talk to myself in my head, or relive events so I see this as normal, and I don't really feel that I have lost anything. It is just the way it all affects my wife that it bothers me. I would love to tell her I can see her in my mind

 

Anyway, although I am a little bit, well set in my ways, if you like, I do still hold out some hope. My brother, he has Aphantasia too, and he has begun to visualise reasonable well. He does this by using Ketosis

 

I too, have a similar protocol but because ketosis can cause weightloss I have to be a bit careful with this. I am not having the success my brother is having, but I have for the first time in my life had some 'stills' in my mind whilst dreaming

 

DISCLAIMER: I am not medically trained. Anybody that wants to try this must speak to a medically trained professional

 

 

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The Angel of Eternity

@Marlow1 Is that you in that video? He's apparently in the UK just like you, he seems to be in his mid-sixties just like you and he has aphantasia just like you. That's just really fascinating to me.

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Marlow1
15 hours ago, The Angel of Eternity said:

@Marlow1 Is that you in that video? He's apparently in the UK just like you, he seems to be in his mid-sixties just like you and he has aphantasia just like you. That's just really fascinating to me.

LOL, There is a whole tribe of us over here, don't you know!!!!! 

 

No, that's not me.

 

I have never actually spoken to Alan, nor do I have any of his books, but I do watch his YouTube videos from time to time, they are very informative. Alan spends a lot of time working with the Scientific Community. I am not sure where they are all upto right now with all this but several studies are being conducted. Brain scans are being used more and more and apparently a very lot of information is showing up on them

 

https://medicalxpress.com/news/2018-06-world-first-brain-imaging-mind.html

 

Me, I don't really talk about this stuff outside of a small circle of friends. In the past I went through Hell and back dealing with professionals that did not have a clue what they were doing. They damaged my back in one operation, and then brought on my brain hemorrhage in another. I am not phobic of hospitals but I stay away from them, I prefer to just take care of myself where I can, I use a lot of alternative therapies. 

 

Yes, Alan, I think he is a great guy but I don't think he knows anything about Asexuality, Greysexuality and so on. He tends to only talk about the Aphantasia, but who knows, in time the subject might come up

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Marlow1

Hi Guys, 

 

I know that I have already posted a lot of links regarding all this, but I have just found this thread and many of the things we talk about here have been mentioned

 

It is good to know folk are seeing that the way we are wired up can influence how we percieve things, I really do hope there is going to be some proper research conducted regarding all this. Right now must of the studies are just looking at what people are self reporting

 

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19620032

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songchick
4 hours ago, Marlow1 said:

Hi Guys, 

 

I know that I have already posted a lot of links regarding all this, but I have just found this thread and many of the things we talk about here have been mentioned

 

It si good to know folk are seeing that the way we are wired up can influence how we percieve things, I really do hope there is going to be some proper research conducted regarding all this. Right now must of the studies are just looking at what people are self reporting

 

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19620032

Thanks for sharing!

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Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?)
On 9/6/2019 at 9:03 AM, neverlove said:

tagging non-elitists 

Just  because people disagree with the way you personally define certain things, that doesn't make them elitist. 

 

On 9/6/2019 at 12:29 PM, Dawning said:

If we can't agree on even the most basic definitions, we should expect that any rational person in the allosexual world will view us as wackos and malcontents and special snowflakes, and that does NOT benefit us!

That's exactly WHY so many of us speak up against the 'anyone who wants to be ace is ace' definition (which is what your definition amounts to). Actual 'allo'sexuals are here telling you it's inaccurate because the way sex favourables define asexuality is literally no different than any normal sexual person... and then you scream and shout and call them gatekeepers. The issue is that when you're utterly misinterpreting what it means to be sexual, it makes asexuality look meaningless to the outside world. That's the issue. Keep your personal definition, but please understand that sexual people (and many aces) see it as incorrect. Asexuality cannot be taken seriously with a definition that says "you can love having sex enough that you desire it for your own pleasure  and still be ace" but you're still free to keep said definition. Just don't say you also want the rest of the world to take asexuality seriously if you want to stick by said definition. You can't have it both ways.

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neverlove

*Sigh*

 

@Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?)...

 

what are you doing here? I’m really not going to take the accusation that we’re destroying asexuality.

I didn’t even tag people I necessarily agree with, just people with accepting definitions of asexuality which precludes them from being elitist—it is obviously not an exhaustive list.

As for not agreeing, why did you feel compelled to post here? What is driving you to engage in this same discussion with people who’ve already heard your thoughts and likewise told you their’s? Do you not want to leave people disagreeing with you in peace? I promise if you want to start a thread complaining about this one, about my views, or stating your own I will not post. 

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Sally
10 minutes ago, neverlove said:

*Sigh*

 

@Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?)...

 

what are you doing here? I’m really not going to take the accusation that we’re destroying asexuality.

I didn’t even tag people I necessarily agree with, just people with accepting definitions of asexuality which precludes them from being elitist—it is obviously not an exhaustive list.

As for not agreeing, why did you feel compelled to post here? What is driving you to engage in this same discussion with people who’ve already heard your thoughts and likewise told you their’s? Do you not want to leave people disagreeing with you in peace? I promise if you want to start a thread complaining about this one, about my views, or stating your own I will not post. 

Members are free to post anywhere on AVEN so long as they don't abrogate the TOS.  

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neverlove
On 9/11/2019 at 3:00 AM, Sally said:

Members are free to post anywhere on AVEN so long as they don't abrogate the TOS.  

Do you really feel this is an appropriate response to what I asked Pan Ficto?

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