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Lines between Coercion and Something Else?


MisterNowhere

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Guest Guest. (Sea horse)
2 hours ago, Philip027 said:

what exactly is wrong with what you quoted?

The question started with 'What do I do if my partner won't compromise/meet halfway?' then followed with 

'I don't want to force my partner to do something they don't want to do, but I don't want to be sexually unsatisfied.'

These are sentences with that same syntax

'I don't want to get fat, but I love those biscuits'

'I didn't want to hit her, but she was winding me up'

'I don't want to argue, but I have to correct these misconceptions'

 

Usually, it means that you are going to do the thing before the but. It's just on here that sentences have different meanings. 

2 hours ago, Philip027 said:

Given things like your "perpetrators are always male" remark at the very top of the page in this thread,

I think you should read through what I said properly. It was actually a statement of fact, I can't change the facts...

 

4 hours ago, Serran said:

AVEN is Visibility and Education first. And that sometimes comes with hurtful stuff. So if one is seeking a support community please don't make the mistake of thinking AVEN is that.

Again, all I asked for was a warning or some explanation of that somewhere. 

 

Also, most other parts of the forum ARE like a support community. It is a small minority that just seem to want a 'lively debate' for nothing more than shits and giggles. 

 

2 hours ago, Traveler40 said:

The original offending thread was apparently and subsequently highly redacted by the OP Guest (sea horse).

I deleted everything I wrote one night because I realised I'd shared a lot of personal information with people I did not feel safe sharing that information with. 

 

I subsequently asked AVEN to delete my account, then returned to this thread as a new account while still identifying myself as 'sea horse' because people just kept saying stuff that I felt the need to correct. 

 

But I haven't made a profile and don't intend to stay and as soon as people stop arguing with me I really will be gone. 

1 hour ago, Serran said:

So, I'm just gonna say I hope Sea Horse finds the support group she seeks, but I disagree with AVEN needing to become that environment and leave it at that. Also, if sea horse does come back and read this, rather than editing all your posts and your account, you can talk to the admins about deleting your account. 

As above, I did eventually delete my account, but redacted before that as I realised I'd been extremely unguarded in what I'd shared, and regretted that later. 

 

I do keep coming back and reading replies. 

 

I have found it sad to leave AVEN because there are some really lovely people on here and only a very small handful that make it difficult to be here. As a whole it's an amazing site, and had I not clicked on this sub-forum I'd probably never have left and been pretty oblivious to most of the people in this particular chat. 

 

I'm very sorry to have upset people and very sorry to have got into arguments like this. 

 

I didn't realise that person had been perma banned because of me (as seems to be implied here)

 

I very much regret having been dragged into this and following said person onto the original thread. I really really wish that hadn't happened, as believe it or not I was here to find like minded people and not argue about coercion and abuse, I left both my profession and subsequently my husband to avoid these very things. 

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Guest Guest. (Sea horse)
8 hours ago, xstatic ☆゚°˖* ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ said:

I'm okay.  I never really believed that it was my fault, though at the end of my last marriage, I actively tried to convince myself that it was my fault in order to save my relationship which ultimately turned everything internally toxic and I attempted suicide.  I'm just happy to be out and happy that I think I finally broke the cycle.

I know what you mean, and I did the same, and also glad I'm out. I'm sorry it got to that stage for you. 

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Is there anyone still posting here who thinks it is OK to force sex on a partner who doesn't want it?

 

Is there anyone still posting here who thinks that people should not be allowed to leave a relationship or marriage if they are unhappy, including being unhappy about their sex life?

 

Between those two there  is a lot of range and subtle distinctions which might be interesting to discuss, but somehow this has just turned into an argument fest.  The whole question of how leaving if you are unhappy with your sex life is OK, but telling your partner you will leave if your sex life doesn't improve sounds coercive, is a very tricky issue.  Worth discussing - calmly. 

 

I'm not sure what is being argued except about what other people who are not longer posting said. 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Guest. (Sea horse) said:

The question started with 'What do I do if my partner won't compromise/meet halfway?' then followed with 

'I don't want to force my partner to do something they don't want to do, but I don't want to be sexually unsatisfied.'

These are sentences with that same syntax

'I don't want to get fat, but I love those biscuits'

'I didn't want to hit her, but she was winding me up'

'I don't want to argue, but I have to correct these misconceptions'

 

Usually, it means that you are going to do the thing before the but. It's just on here that sentences have different meanings. 

No, it doesn't "usually" mean that, and just because it sometimes might doesn't make it okay for you to label someone who's explicitly said they have no intention of raping someone as "rapey"

 

Again I'm wondering if you'd rather just have these people suffer in silence, because it just sounds to me like you don't want to allow anyone to acknowledge or speak up about crappy dilemmas they end up in...

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I would never want my acer to have sex if she was against having it. I would go, ever so far, to find solutions/actions which could be done that would perhaps give me the sexual connection-feeling or simply the loving aid with my sexual project, and she would perhaps consider it more of a massage to keep her loved one sane and happy. “Suck my dick or I’m outta here!” Sounds a bit shallow and like a stupid, first time in a relationship-mistake. Perhaps phrasing it like: “I think, I need sex as a part of my life to feel truly happy and whole and ready to face the world. I hope you will support me in finding this awesome thing. If you want to not participate, then know that I will be concerned about my ability to commit 100%, as I feel sex is important to me. If you are, as I am, interested in further building upon this relationship, then please help me, by adressing the issue! Perhaps you have a solution or at least want to discuss it further.”

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I still have difficulty when the preference order is :

 

A:   marriage with sex > divorce > marriage without sex

B:  Marriage without sex > marriage with sex > divorce

 

In that situation if there is an open conversation, B will end up having sex B doesn't really want, but prefers to divorce.   But what other option is there?  Surely A shouldn't stay n a marriage if they are not happy. Surely B should have the option for a marriage with sex over divorce.  But has A "threatened / coerced" sex?

 

 

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Guest Guest. (Sea horse)
19 hours ago, uhtred said:

I still have difficulty when the preference order is :

 

A:   marriage with sex > divorce > marriage without sex

B:  Marriage without sex > marriage with sex > divorce

 

In that situation if there is an open conversation, B will end up having sex B doesn't really want, but prefers to divorce.   But what other option is there?  Surely A shouldn't stay n a marriage if they are not happy. Surely B should have the option for a marriage with sex over divorce.  But has A "threatened / coerced" sex?

 

 

I’m just going to clarify the way I see your logic here, and I do not mean this vindictively because you are asking an honest question and I think your intentions are good.

 

Coercion is only possible when you have two alternatives, both very unappealing, but one is frightening enough that you would choose to avoid it.

 

I guess I could use an example from another thread you were commenting on - a young woman who had a traumatic smear test. Women are persuaded into these tests because of the threat that they could die of cancer otherwise...

 

You could substitute ‘cancer’ for ‘divorce’ if you wanted to see the logic in the sentence:

 

marriage without sex>marriage with sex>cancer

 

’Marriage with sex’ isn’t a pleasant option here, it probably isn’t going to feel good at all. 

 

I think the best thing you can do here is stop asking outsiders to your marriage what is the most fair action to take. It would be better to speak to your wife about how she feels, and try to create a situation in which she can safely tell you what is best for her - from her OWN point of view. Nobody else can tell you that. She’s an individual person with her own point of view. You can’t ask other people what is right or wrong because there is no right and wrong as I’ve said before, (other than that it’s wrong to force a person into sex obviously)

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4 hours ago, Guest. (Sea horse) said:

I’m just going to clarify the way I see your logic here, and I do not mean this vindictively because you are asking an honest question and I think your intentions are good.

 

Coercion is only possible when you have two alternatives, both very unappealing, but one is frightening enough that you would choose to avoid it.

 

I guess I could use an example from another thread you were commenting on - a young woman who had a traumatic smear test. Women are persuaded into these tests because of the threat that they could die of cancer otherwise...

 

You could substitute ‘cancer’ for ‘divorce’ if you wanted to see the logic in the sentence:

 

marriage without sex>marriage with sex>cancer

 

’Marriage with sex’ isn’t a pleasant option here, it probably isn’t going to feel good at all. 

 

I think the best thing you can do here is stop asking outsiders to your marriage what is the most fair action to take. It would be better to speak to your wife about how she feels, and try to create a situation in which she can safely tell you what is best for her - from her OWN point of view. Nobody else can tell you that. She’s an individual person with her own point of view. You can’t ask other people what is right or wrong because there is no right and wrong as I’ve said before, (other than that it’s wrong to force a person into sex obviously)

In my case in addition to being near asexual,she has extreme difficulty talking about sex.  Conversations always produce either a "sorry I"m sorry I've been tired recently"  (which misses the point, or she gets very upset.  If I try to push the issue - try to point out that she hasn't been "tired" for 30 years, she just has a very low interest in sex, she gets very upset.

 

I'm quite sure though that she would rather have sex than be divorced ,but she would rather not have sex, than have sex. I think this is not a uncommon situation.

 

 

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2 hours ago, uhtred said:

I'm quite sure though that she would rather have sex than be divorced ,but she would rather not have sex,

Would you rather not have sex indefinitely to remain married if your wife self identified and  it was off the table full stop?

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10 minutes ago, Traveler40 said:

Would you rather not have sex indefinitely to remain married if your wife self identified and  it was off the table full stop?

This is the question that immediately popped into my head as well.

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6 hours ago, Traveler40 said:

Would you rather not have sex indefinitely to remain married if your wife self identified and  it was off the table full stop?

In my case I accept marriage and no sex (which is pretty much what we have) over divorce, (though it is very close and has flip-flopped over the years) but there are many people who would prefer divorce to a sexless marriage.   

 

 

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Guest Guest. (Sea horse)
17 hours ago, uhtred said:

in addition to being near asexual

Can you be 'near asexual' - is it not supposed to be more black and white than that? This kind of thing causes a lot of debate on other parts of this site, but apparently not much on this sub-forum...

 

17 hours ago, uhtred said:

Conversations always produce either a "sorry I"m sorry I've been tired recently"  (which misses the point, or she gets very upset.  If I try to push the issue - try to point out that she hasn't been "tired" for 30 years, she just has a very low interest in sex, she gets very upset.

This doesn't sound to me like a conversation in which you are asking your wife how she feels, or creating a situation in which she can safely tell you what's best for her, from her own point of view. It sounds a bit like someone is being bullied. It sounds as if the whole thing is causing your wife a lot of distress. I really feel for her. 

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Guest Guest. (Sea horse)
On 9/7/2019 at 11:32 PM, Philip027 said:

Again I'm wondering if you'd rather just have these people suffer in silence, because it just sounds to me like you don't want to allow anyone to acknowledge or speak up about crappy dilemmas they end up in...

You have to be consistent. According to @Serran this is not a support group and should not be mistaken as such. 

 

If sexuals want to speak about the pain of sexual rejection and frustration, that's fine, as long as they don't expect support on here and remember that AVEN is about asexual education and visibility, not support. Also, they should also allow asexuals to speak about the pain of sexual coercion and even rape, without trying to silence them (not all sexuals, not all men, shut up and go get therapy etc etc). I would be perfectly happy to accept this as it would be fair and consistent. 

 

Also I know what 'Ani' wants to say here is that I should not speak about sexual coercion unless I can prove it's a specifically asexual problem. But by that logic, sexuals should not be speaking about sexual frustration unless they can prove it's a specifically married-to-an-asexual problem, rather than something that affects many many people in marriages.

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6 hours ago, Guest. (Sea horse) said:

Can you be 'near asexual' - is it not supposed to be more black and white than that? This kind of thing causes a lot of debate on other parts of this site, but apparently not much on this sub-forum...

 

This doesn't sound to me like a conversation in which you are asking your wife how she feels, or creating a situation in which she can safely tell you what's best for her, from her own point of view. It sounds a bit like someone is being bullied. It sounds as if the whole thing is causing your wife a lot of distress. I really feel for her. 

I think its possible to be near-asexual.  I used that to describe my wife because:  1) she occasionally wants sexual activity, but occasional, means once every few months is probably about right. When she does want sexual activity she definitely wants it.  2) She has a very limited set of sexual activities that she enjoys (which do not include PIV), and most often just wants me to give her an O quickly and be done.   3). Her interest in sex seems unrelated to anything else - she enjoys romantic activities but is no more likely to want sex on vacation at a tropical resort, than after a day doing chores around the house. 

 

I am willing to do absolutely anything she wants in bed.  She gives every impression of enjoying sex, and claims she does so when it happens, and usually says we should do it more often.  (but of course we don't)

 

I have tried many friendly gentle conversations.  They generally result in her telling me that she enjoys sex, wants sex, just has been "tired / feeling poorly / busy / .... etc".  recently.   Followed by saying that she did want more sex.  Tiired of course possible in any particular case, but in general?  We take long hikes in the mountains, long exhausting vacations and she is never too tired for that.  One time on vacation she turned me down for sex because she was "tired", then a few hours later wanted to go to a late night jazz concert. 

 

Almost 20 years of those conversations, always claiming that she "wanted" sex and enjoyed it - just not now.  If I pointed out that while she talked about wanting sex, she very rarely actually wanted it . She would generally double down on being tired "recently". Conversations went no where until I was very very clear about just how big of an issue this was for me.  

 

Yes it causes her distress .It causes me distress.   I've lived most of my live nearly celibate. I always face the choice of near-celibacy, or leaving and deeply hurting the woman I love.  (she does really love me and would be devastated if I left). I've never hinted that I'd leave, but I've come very close to doing so on a few occasions. 

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Guest Guest. (Sea horse)
2 hours ago, uhtred said:

I think its possible to be near-asexual.  I used that to describe my wife because:  1) she occasionally wants sexual activity, but occasional, means once every few months is probably about right. When she does want sexual activity she definitely wants it.  2) She has a very limited set of sexual activities that she enjoys (which do not include PIV), and most often just wants me to give her an O quickly and be done.   3). Her interest in sex seems unrelated to anything else - she enjoys romantic activities but is no more likely to want sex on vacation at a tropical resort, than after a day doing chores around the house. 

Personally, I accept this. 

 

I have to say (and I'm sorry because it may be off-topic), that when people identify as asexual but describe sometimes enjoying sex, they are firmly told that they are not asexual. I'm just interested to see if anyone is going to tell you that your wife is not asexual. I think if this definition of asexuality should be challenged (if it needs to be challenged) wherever it arises, rather than selectively. 

 

But, if we go with her being asexual then I guess it has to be accepted that she isn't going to change.

 

As you have described, you've tried a lot of ways to increase her interest in sex and none of them has worked. If it is down to her orientation, then that explains why these things don't work. 

2 hours ago, uhtred said:

I have tried many friendly gentle conversations.  They generally result in her telling me that she enjoys sex, wants sex, just has been "tired / feeling poorly / busy / .... etc".  recently.   Followed by saying that she did want more sex.  Tiired of course possible in any particular case, but in general?  We take long hikes in the mountains, long exhausting vacations and she is never too tired for that.  One time on vacation she turned me down for sex because she was "tired", then a few hours later wanted to go to a late night jazz concert. 

I cannot speak for your wife. I am not her and I don't know her. However, parts of what you are saying are not a million miles away from what happened in my marriage.

 

If she is asexual it's likely something that she has (subconsciously or consciously) been led to feel ashamed of and/or been socialised into suppressing. She will recognise - again, probably not consciously - that it is not considered normal and that admitting to her real feelings will not go down well. 

 

So, even though the conversations seem gentle and friendly to you, they may feel quite threatening to her, and she is probably aware that there is a 'right' and a 'wrong' answer. She may worry about hurting your feelings, about making you angry, and that if she says something you will leave or break up the marriage. It seems to me like these are valid and real concerns for her to have.  

 

I don't think that you can be sure that you have created a safe environment for her to say how she really feels. It may be that there is no such safe environment anywhere for her. 

2 hours ago, uhtred said:

Almost 20 years of those conversations, always claiming that she "wanted" sex and enjoyed it - just not now.  If I pointed out that while she talked about wanting sex, she very rarely actually wanted it . She would generally double down on being tired "recently". Conversations went no where until I was very very clear about just how big of an issue this was for me.  

 

I think this is where my sticking point is. As above, if she is asexual then it isn't going to change, so as you have noted gentle persuasion etc have not worked - so you have had to become more insistent. It sounds as if you are becoming frustrated and you are calling her out on what she is saying - which is not going to make her feel more relaxed, put it that way - so is unlikely to help the situation. 

 

You can't make her want more sex, that's the problem. Saying that you need it isn't the same as making her want it, you will just make her do because she's afraid not to. 

 

Again, not trying to be vindictive, just trying to unpick the logic here. 


If I don't respond to any more posts it's just because I genuinely do need a break from this now....

 

 

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