Lines between Coercion and Something Else?

[Xstatic]

Well that just sounds confusing and extremely frustrating.  Both of those relationships sound exhausting.  Your current partner sounds *edit not hypocritical, indecisive* and that would really bother me.  (Mixed message would leave anyone confused) But I'm not one to talk.  I've stayed in some real shit situations.

[uhtred]

19 minutes ago, xstatic ☆ﾟ°˖* ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ said:

Also, @uhtred I really like @skullery's suggestion of gentle reminders which is what it sounds like you are doing.  Maybe just try not to wait until your breaking point.  Also, talk to her about it as a system.  Let her know that you are considering it as a system to make sure that she understands it and that it doesn't come across as nagging.  Just a thought.

 

Also, I want to address some of the questions asked the other day.  I didn't have the time back then.  Do I think that talking about your relationship expectations are coersive?  No.  Absolutely not.  But I also don't think that you should guilt your partner into using their body in a way they are clearly uncomfortable with.  The mental damage and loss of self-esteem is a horrible cost to that person.  If you need more from someone, you have to move on.  But don't shame the person who can't give you what you want in terms of their own body and willingness to experiment.  Some people just have very different levels of comfort.  It doesn't make them a shitty person.  It doesn't make you a shitty person for wanting something more.  

I actually tried desperately to keep my last partner happy.  But there were certain things I wasn't willing to do.  I didn't want him to feel like he could never fulfill those wants and desires, so I opened up the marriage.  But all he ever used that for was anger/revenge f'ing and that was like, my only rule.  So he completely violated my trust when all I wanted was for him to be happy and satisfied with me being me.  But in the end, I've come to really realize that he didn't think of me as an equal.  I was beneath him, and he reminded me of that often.  His goal was to change me, and I didn't want to change.

 

I *wish* he would have just talked to me about it like a person who has feelings.  I *wish* I could have left that relationship feeling respected and just not compatible.  Instead, I left it feeling dirty and used and worthless.  And I left it with a bottle of pills.

Sometimes people  (in either situation) have difficulty talking about it. This is especially true if they feel some guilt for their own feelings. 

[Sally]

1 hour ago, xstatic ☆ﾟ°˖* ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ said:

I *wish* he would have just talked to me about it like a person who has feelings.  I *wish* I could have left that relationship feeling respected and just not compatible.  Instead, I left it feeling dirty and used and worthless.  And I left it with a bottle of pills.

So sorry you went through that.   

[Guest]

2 hours ago, uhtred said:

Sometimes people  (in either situation) have difficulty talking about it. This is especially true if they feel some guilt for their own feelings. 

I think some people genuinely don't know how they feel, or their feelings change.

 

@uhtred. I know this is not going to go over well with... basically anyone else on AVEN, but... have you tried having an affair? Have you ever cheated, and if yes, what happened? Make things better or worse with your wife? 

[Guest]

17 minutes ago, skullery said:

@uhtred. I know this is not going to go over well with... basically anyone else on AVEN, but... have you tried having an affair? Have you ever cheated, and if yes, what happened? Make things better or worse with your wife? 

One of the things that confuses me about the whole 'affair' thing is that if your partner finds out it's almost certain to end the relationship, and damn there'd be so much sneaking around and lies etc you have to tell, and the risk that third person falls in love with you and starts sending harassment to your significant other or whatever (because people can do crazy things for love and lust!) ...So isn't it easier and less painful to just end the relationship and seek a new one (or even just have casual sex or whatever) as a free person instead of potentially bringing a third party into one's private life in a way that could end up really hurting your partner?

 

Or is it kind of like.. a way to end the relationship without having to take the steps to actually end it? So you're *hoping* you get caught and your *partner* will be the one to end it, so you didn't have to make that decision??? (as I know how painful it can be!)

 

Genuinely curious here!

 

Ps it's 9am I'm about to crack open a can of Pepsi and eat a few bars of chocolate while playing Skyrim. That's probably one of the reasons why I've been single for so long and don't need to worry about any of the stuff actually being discussed in this thread at the moment, so I don't know why I keep coming back to it, lol.

[Guest]

If it was easier to just end the relationship, that's what people would do. I think... This is shitty, but... it's almost impossible to work up the self esteem and self efficacy to leave if you've been beat down with constant rejection for (in his case anyway) 30 years. Getting laid and regaining a sense of self may be necessary. 

 

Alternatively, it may make the asexual relationship better. Take the pressure off. Lower the sexual partner's needs to match the asexual partner's needs. 

 

When you're at a point when someone has promised, over and over and over again, to meet your needs but they just cannot, and neither party wants to leave for the happiness of either themselves or the other... I really don't see how it's that big a deal. Everyone is already unhappy. Let the chips fall where they may. 

[Guest]

Hmmmm, makes sense when looked at like that, but pardon the pun: Fuck that lol.. So much effort and potential pain (when you're already suffering anyway). I'm just going to be single and play Skyrim so I don't need to worry about that stuff anymore

 

..Time to hunt down a giant and cut off his big toe so I can finally build me a proper house!

[Guest]

The reality of the situation is that... Over my time here on AVEN, I can say that the sexuals cheat a lot. All while posting on the boards about how terrible it is. So, the asexuals here keep thinking asexual monogamy is a valid and likely possibility, and the sexuals keep feeling guilty and shitty.

 

The reality is, many of us will eventually cheat on you. I'm sorry. But. 

 

If your partner's mental, emotional and physical state will deteriorate without sex and you can't give it to them, you're asking them to be a husk of a human for your own mental comfort. Eventually, they're going to snap and seek it elsewhere. 

 

Big reason it's never discussed is because affairs are secret, so the people having them can't admit to them publicly. It gives a false representation of what's actually going on. 

[Xstatic]

Cheating and affairs are really different.  I'll be okay fooling around with someone else if it ever happens.  I have been told it's fine to do so, and I went into the relationship open about my desire to mess around with our mutual friend who is also bisexual but in a committed relationship. (Her husband is also fine with that arrangement)

 

An affair takes committing to another person which is obviously going to show on some level in your current relationship.  Poly is one thing, but affairs take a lot of effort to hide.  It feels like such a huge betrayal afterwards.

 

Cheating sucks, but it happens sometimes.  (My bar is pretty low, I know) I've never had someone not cheat on me.  Though, I've cheated twice in my lifetime.  Both happened after I found out my first husband had an affair behind my back with my 'best friend' for 2 1/2 years and I just didn't care anymore.

 

I do appreciate the fact that I, for once, don't think that my s/o is going to cheat.  

 

I feel like open relationships would solve a lot of these problems, but there is such a stigma on it.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, xstatic ☆ﾟ°˖* ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ said:

I feel like open relationships would solve a lot of these problems, but there is such a stigma on it.

Agreed. 

[Xstatic]

45 minutes ago, Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?) said:

 

Ps it's 9am I'm about to crack open a can of Pepsi and eat a few bars of chocolate while playing Skyrim. That's probably one of the reasons why I've been single for so long

Hey, I'm over here playing final fantasy and drinking a glass of wine.  Live your best life.  Fus Ro Dah and all of that.  😂

[anisotrophic]

"threatening to cheat or leave" ...noting that this was also in the list of coercive communication, but as with leaving, the topic must be somehow approachable as a breaking point is getting hit.

 

I've got permission; no time, emotional capacity, or optimism about it working out well. Otherwise I think it's a good idea, yeah... ideally you get permission (we give this to each other) but if not? god, idk, what do people expect....

 

Related to "leaving" and breaking points...

 

My breaking point behavior is unfortunately pretty terrible: suicidal ideation. I try to keep it to myself because I know it's horrible, distressing and coercive. People say "tell others when you're suicidal" but it's not so simple.

 

And maybe this will sound stupid but -- the coercive behaviors I've made were not about sex (that's been highly empathic)... no, it's about chores, domestic labor, and my partner not pulling his weight there and leaving me with gendered labor & responsibility, working my ass off and not getting thanked or even noticed. Having to nag. I don't know where that lies in the territory of selfish/acceptable but it made me angry and hopeless to feel so disrespected. he's gotten better, but it took many years and many tears.

[Xstatic]

I don't think it's coersive to demand respect and equality.

[anisotrophic]

Just now, xstatic ☆ﾟ°˖* ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ said:

I don't think it's coersive to demand respect and equality.

Coercive approaches, but not wrong, I guess, as with alcoholism.

[Xstatic]

Also, I understand exactly what you're talking about with the ideation.  I've been told it's attention seeking and selfish.  I've worked really really hard on that over the past year.  It's not healthy, no matter the reasons why, so it's just something I've taken upon myself to work super hard at.  And yes, now when I feel that way, I either remind myself of my personal goals, or call someone.  So much easier said than done.  I really hope it gets better.

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, xstatic ☆ﾟ°˖* ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ said:

I don't think it's coersive to demand respect and equality.

No, me either. Over the years, I think the phrase I've most preferred is "I'm prepared to walk away if that's what's needed." I think that so much of it depends on timing and phrasing and, more than anything, the inner workings of the relationship, which no one else can possibly know. I find it absolutely necessary to know where my partner's boundaries are. Boundaries are good.

 

I think the coercion comes in when one person's needs are the only needs that matter... there's an element of abuse and control, I think, when one partner knows that the other can't just leave, or will be emotionally flattened by a threat, and the partner threatens anyway. There needs to be equality in the ability to talk, be respected, and also the equality that both parties will be ok if the relationship ends. I have a much harder time feeling ok with a breadwinner telling a stay at home spouse that they have to have sex or else, because the stay at home spouse may legit be unable to leave.

 

Lot of elements involved in coercion. But boundaries in general are good. 

[Guest]

Cheating isn't as big a deal as lying about cheating imo. That puts years of trauma on your partner to work through. And also puts them at risk of STDs without their knowledge. Plus, they are sitting there giving you sex sometimes that they hate... while you lie to their face and potentially give them a lifelong illness without them giving informed consent to the risks and damage they are doing to themselves. 

 

My ex didn't give me informed consent option for my STD risk until after I woke up one morning with bleeding sores and had to go to the hospital. A very painful exam and some antibiotics later, I was all better. But, you can bet I hold a grudge at him risking my health for his own pleasure without telling me. 

 

Sex with others isn't risk free. So, for me, accepting sex from a partner and also cheating on them behind their back is... not good. I know for me my consent hinges on monogamy, so every act done through a lie feels non-consensual and violating, in some ways more so than when I was held down and forced physically. As awful as it sounds  I honestly kind of prefer being forced to being tricked, if I had to pick between the two experiences. Though my preference is neither, had enough of both for a lifetime. 

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Serran said:

As awful as it sounds I honestly kind of prefer being forced to being tricked, if I had to pick between the two experiences. 

I have no doubt that's true. That would definitely be true for me too. Thing is though, for the sexual, having to force sex isn't at all helpful, whereas, the tricking is.

 

Informed consent is an open relationship, yeah? I definitely agree that that's the way to go, if someone is going to do it one way or the other. 

[Xstatic]

7 minutes ago, skullery said:

I have a much harder time feeling ok with a breadwinner telling a stay at home spouse that they have to have sex or else, because the stay at home spouse may legit be unable to leave.

Ope, that was me.  It was awful.  And after several years of me not working he would remind me that I had no future without him.

 

PS - I've been free for over a year and I'm doing just fine.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, xstatic ☆ﾟ°˖* ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ said:

Ope, that was me.  It was awful.  And after several years of me not working he would remind me that I had no future without him.

 

PS - I've been free for over a year and I'm doing just fine.

Ugggg yes, that's coercive and abusive and I'm really sorry. 

[Guest]

Just now, skullery said:

I have no doubt that's true. That would definitely be true for me too. Thing is though, for the sexual, having to force sex isn't at all helpful, whereas, the tricking is.

But, isn't that basically saying "I am at the point I no longer care about my partner's well being, I'm willing to hurt them in one of the worst ways possible, years of trauma to them is fine - I'm too scared to leave them, so this is better for me and who cares about them"?  I can't imagine ever caring so much more about myself than my partner that I would be willing to do something that they find more painful than rape while also risking their physical health (potentially in a life threatening way, cause what if instead of bleeding sores, my ex had given me HIV by hiding stuff? )

 

Like, I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy, let alone a person I have been in love with. If you actively resent? hate? dislike? your partner that much, walking away is a much better option. 

 

Just now, skullery said:

 

Informed consent is an open relationship, yeah? I definitely agree that that's the way to go, if someone is going to do it one way or the other. 

Open informed consent, walking away or at the very, very, very least... refuse sex with them from that point on and make the relationship a very non-sexual one. 

[Guest]

STDs are a separate issue, and honestly not one I think about because I have virtually no STD risk. That's never once come up in any of my discussions with any of my girlfriends about open relationships, cheating, etc. 

 

I'm also inclined to suggest that if someone is so against sex outside the relationship that it would feel worse than rape, they should not be with a sexual. The caring about feelings goes both ways there. Maybe both sides are asking too much of the other. 

 

My ex cheated on me. She realized she was straight and had a relationship with a man. I do not fault her for that. What else was she gonna do? 

[Xstatic]

Straight and not bi?  That's interesting.  Though a lot of people don't want to be associated with the bi label, so I guess I'm not surprised.  🤷

[Guest]

They're happily married. 🤷‍♀️

[Xstatic]

8 minutes ago, skullery said:

They're happily married. 🤷‍♀️

*Deeply inhales in bi* 

[Lucinda]

Would it have been less devastating for you if she had stated her newly discovered straightness before cheating?

 

Lucinda

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Lucinda said:

Would it have been less devastating for you if she had stated her newly discovered straightness before cheating?

 

Lucinda

We had an open relationship for years... I strongly encouraged her to experiment, because I was the only person she had been with, her only real relationship. She never did. It happened after we had closed it and considered ourselves married... exchanged rings and vows and shit. But, our vows were something like "I hope we're happy together forever, and if we're not, i hope we're kind when it ends." 😂

 

This is how I see it. Not everything we do can be shared. Sometimes, including other people in our journey will derail the journey. Some things must be undertaken alone. This was one of those journeys. She couldn't have told me, which is why she didn't. And that's OK. I have no issue with that. Our lives are our lives, we only get one, and if something is that important to who we are... gotta pursue it. I have no hard feelings and I never did. 

 

My issue was the way she left. I was unemployed and she just vanished one day with no warning. I was homeless in Philadelphia so I ended up moving in with my abusive father in Wisconsin... my mom was recently remarried and wasn't returning my calls. After 3 days and a 911 call later, I left my dad's, crashed at my aunt's house for a month, got to Portland, rented a series of basement apartments... eventually found my footing. 

 

She could have helped. Given me time to save money, find accommodations. She sacrificed my security and basic life safety for her happiness and that part, I take issue with. 

[anisotrophic]

This may seem like a detail but when I wrote "coercive approaches" I'm describing the style of communication attempting to get a partner to do a thing. It's the worst sort, and evidence that the non-coercive approaches aren't working.

I'm not characterizing it based on the outcome that is being demanded. One could coercively communicate on a variety of things... demand someone see a doctor, meet a relationship therapist, quit alcohol, commit to doing more chores.

 

@MisterNowhere made the point, which was fair, that coercive communication is deemed appropriate in some circumstances – but wondered what they were. He contrasted alcoholism with sexual relations.

 

@skullery felt the difference was in whether it benefited the partner: "getting help for an addiction benefits them, whereas having sex one doesn't want does not benefit them."

But... demanding my partner pull his weight with domestic labor wasn't going to benefit him (except perhaps in some virtue/character sense). So... I'm not sure whether this is quite the distinction. There's some sense around the fairness and unfairness, related to the pain people experience.

With @MisterNowhere's own situation, I think it's worth observing that there is a responsibility to set expectations in a partnership.

Setting them incorrectly – whether that was intended or not – this is a reason to apologize. It's not a reason to go ahead with something that was overpromised or has changed. For example – if someone misled a partner to think "we'll have kids together" (perhaps merely by misunderstanding their own desires)... and five years later they've got cold feet when they're supposed to go ahead with it... I expect they should own it, communicate and apologize – but for god's sake don't go ahead and have kids!

I think people know this about setting expectations, about their responsibility to communicate. And I'm going to speculate that when expectations go sour, the partner that can't meet them is going to feel that as "pressure". Expectations might be set coercively, of course – exactly how this plays out can range from abusive behavior towards a partner (from gaslighting to sex abuse), to a very nasty "bad communication" spiral.

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, anisotrophic said:

 

 

@skullery felt the difference was in whether it benefited the partner: "getting help for an addiction benefits them, whereas having sex one doesn't want does not benefit them."

But... demanding my partner pull his weight with domestic labor wasn't going to benefit him (except perhaps in some virtue/character sense). So... I'm not sure whether this is quite the distinction. There's some sense around the fairness and unfairness, related to the pain people experience.

Yeah, I hear ya. That was meant only re the alcoholism but doesn't address other situations. 

 

Coercion happens constantly. Advertisements and traffic laws are coercion. The economy coerces me to be employed. Why not step outside of that word and talk about harmful vs benign? Having sex one doesn't want is psychologically harmful. Doing dishes is not.

 

Bur what if I had a partner with PTSD... their mother used to smash every dish that wasn't washed up to her exacting standards, so my partner has panic attacks while doing dishes. In that case, it'd be pretty shitty of me to demand they do it. And honestly they probably would, because who's going to leave a relationship because they can't manage to do dishes... they'd feel so ashamed they'd just try to push through it. In that case, I'd say, it's wrong to demand dish doing. 

[Xstatic]

Can I just say that I've really enjoyed this thread and the conversations that have occurred because of it?  Really thought provoking stuff everyone.  Thank you!