Lines between Coercion and Something Else?

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, uhtred said:

The question is what constitutes Coercive control. Does saying "I'm leaving if we don't regularly have sex" fall into that category?

I'd say look it up, I'm not a legal expert but yes, I think this is coercion. At best it is manipulative behaviour. How the asexual reacts depends on how much they love the sexual, how afraid they are to be alone, etc.  

 

I tried to change my partner's behaviour by leaving, then coming back when I thought he had 'got the message'. I repeatedly said 'I will leave if you do this again, and will not come back' - he didn't listen, so I left. I hate manipulative behaviour so for me that was the only thing to do. I wasn't playing games, but he thought I was. 

When I left, I was the villain. But I really don't care. At least I'm honest. 

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, uhtred said:

I think that is the key issue.   Lets say an asexual is in a relationship where they are not getting sex. If they say "I"ll leave if I don't get sex"  it feels like coercion. If they say "i'm leaving because of the lack of sex" and then refuse their partner's offer to make things better - it seems like being mean and not communicating. 

 

The basic problem is that the asexual wants the relationship to continue, just without sex.  The sexual either wants the relationship to continue with sex, or to end.  There is no solution that makes them both happy, and not clear way to resolve the conflict. 

 

Often the Sexual's preference is:   [relationship with sex] > [ending relationship] > [relationship without sex]

the Asexuals preference is sometimes [relationship without sex] > [relationship with sex]> [ending relationship]

 

This can naturally result in [relationship with sex] as a sort of compromise, which at the same time can feel abusive to the asexual. 

That's it...It really does work both ways. I feel like we are on the same page here. 

[anisotrophic]

13 minutes ago, uhtred said:

If they say "I"ll leave if I don't get sex"  it feels like coercion. If they say "i'm leaving because of the lack of sex" and then refuse their partner's offer to make things better - it seems like being mean and not communicating. 

Yeah, I don't see how it's possible to navigate this "non-coercively" without acknowledging that at some point communicating unhappiness is not coercion, it's communication. The differences might lie in the abruptness and immediacy of communication & the solutions a partner suggests, their efforts to seek joint problem-solving, etc.

 

my partner gets angry with me for "doing thinking for him" in my efforts to ignore my unhappiness and avoid my own sexuality. Which is possibly getting harder to do since I started T. At some point I'm failing as a partner if I'm refusing to communicate, for fear of that communication being coercive.

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, anisotrophic said:

Yeah, I don't see how it's possible to navigate this "non-coercively" without acknowledging that at some point communicating unhappiness is not coercion, it's communication. The differences might lie in the abruptness and immediacy of communication & the solutions a partner suggests, their efforts to seek joint problem-solving, etc.

 

my partner gets angry with me for "doing thinking for him" in my efforts to ignore my unhappiness and avoid my own sexuality. Which is possibly getting harder to do since I started T. At some point I'm failing as a partner if I'm refusing to communicate, for fear of that communication being coercive.

I think you're missing the point. Communicating feelings is one thing. Saying 'if you don't do this, I'm leaving' is actually quite reasonable if you leave, but otherwise you are threatening them. 

 

If something is a deal breaker for you I fail to understand why you stay?

[Guest]

@uhtred I don't know if you are interested but this is a tool social workers use re coercive control

 

http://www.socialworkerstoolbox.com/the-power-and-control-wheel-the-duluth-model/

 

Yes, women can use coercive behaviour too...It's just that most cases of domestic abuse flagged to social workers (and this will be because of concerns about the child, maybe they're drawing things that happen at home, acting things out in play - daddy hitting mummy etc..) are male on female violence.

 

There's a whole body of research on this which informs the legislation.

[uhtred]

1 hour ago, Guest said:

@uhtred I don't know if you are interested but this is a tool social workers use re coercive control

 

http://www.socialworkerstoolbox.com/the-power-and-control-wheel-the-duluth-model/

 

Yes, women can use coercive behaviour too...It's just that most cases of domestic abuse flagged to social workers (and this will be because of concerns about the child, maybe they're drawing things that happen at home, acting things out in play - daddy hitting mummy etc..) are male on female violence.

 

There's a whole body of research on this which informs the legislation.

I agree with everything on that chart except "threatening to leave her".  

 

Is that really "threatening"?   Surely people are free to leave a relationship that makes them unhappy.   Isn't the alternative leaving without warning which seems somewhat worse?

 

Dropping sex and gender,  lets say that there is a couple A and B.   B is behaving in a way X that makes A deeply unhappy, but which is not illegal. A has asked B do change their behavior but B does not change.  (whether unable or unwilling may not be obvious to either of them).  A can either say "stop doing X or I will leave".  Or, simply leave without explanation.   Which is better?

 

For me this is not hypothetical - as I mentioned I found myself in this situation and struggled with finding the right thing to do. 

[Guest]

Wait, what happened to Sea Horse?

 

@anisotrophic I read her responses completely different than you did, they made perfect sense to me. I don't want to get into it with you though because we've been there before and will never see eye-to-eye on it, as you will always be the sexual partner and I will always be someone who was on the other side of the fence, and the views are just too different apparently to ever be able to reach agreement. (which by the way is exactly why ace and sexual relationships are doomed to fail under almost all circumstances, because the sexual perspective is just so vastly different from that of the person who doesn't want sex, even when the sexual is the one going WITHOUT sex so one would think that would make it easier to understand each other given the amount of words we use, but nope. So yeah if sexuals and those more on the ace side can't understand each other even here, with this many words, there's no way the majority of them will be able to remain in a relationship together without a lot of suffering for both partners and a LOT of disagreement)

 

But regardless, how is Sea Horse suddenly a guest account? 😕

[Guest Guest. (Sea horse)]

3 hours ago, uhtred said:

I agree with everything on that chart except "threatening to leave her".  

 

Is that really "threatening"?   Surely people are free to leave a relationship that makes them unhappy.   Isn't the alternative leaving without warning which seems somewhat worse?

 

Dropping sex and gender,  lets say that there is a couple A and B.   B is behaving in a way X that makes A deeply unhappy, but which is not illegal. A has asked B do change their behavior but B does not change.  (whether unable or unwilling may not be obvious to either of them).  A can either say "stop doing X or I will leave".  Or, simply leave without explanation.   Which is better?

 

For me this is not hypothetical - as I mentioned I found myself in this situation and struggled with finding the right thing to do. 

.

[Lucinda]

Sea Horse said in another thread that she was gone for good. 

 

I see the OP's situation differently.  His ex was the equivalent of a "pillow princess" and would be sexually compatible with the equivalent of a "stone butch".  He was not attracted to the idea of doing sex to the OP, but wanted the OP to do him.  Both his words and actions point to this.  Since the OP wanted their sexual encounters to be reciprocal, he is not stone.  While their peer group may refer to a "pillow princess" as an asexual, it seems to me that this was more of a sexual/sexual incompatible partnership based on how each desired gratification.

 

Lucinda

[Scottthespy]

@MisterNowhere I think communication is the big issue in all relationships. Some people get lucky and both just naturally do and want exactly the things the other does and wants and not much communication is needed, but most of the time it takes a LOT of talking, honestly with both others and ourselves, and openness to hearing and talking about things that 'aren't going right'. I think that it is impossible to have a relationship with some one who won't talk, wont be open, who hides, as you said. Any issue that pops up in the relationship will sit and fester instead of getting worked through. Small things will become huge problems. Being able to communicate effectively is the single most important part of a relationship, because with that skill, you can solve everything else. 

 

Side note: This is why I think all couples should have to play "Keep Talking and Nobody Explodes" to completion before they're allowed to marry. It's oddly good at bringing up the sorts of panic, perceived importance, and 'difficult thing causes break in communication which leads to catastrophic meltdown' that you often see in bad relationships.

[MisterNowhere]

6 hours ago, Lucinda said:

Since the OP wanted their sexual encounters to be reciprocal, he is not stone.  While their peer group may refer to a "pillow princess" as an asexual, it seems to me that this was more of a sexual/sexual incompatible partnership based on how each desired gratification.

In my private thoughts I have felt the same on occasion. But he self-identifies as ace and I've wanted to honor that. He does do other ace-type things, like not understanding the concept of sexy. 

 

I've had times where I've wondered if his requests for one-way sex were a misguided attempt to satisfy me since he had a really narrow sexual understanding - i.e. "Misternowhere wants sex, and sex is sex, so anything I offer is good." We often ended up having hour long conversations about how this was not true for me, but I don't think I ever got through. It was really hard for me to articulate the exact reason I experiened certain sexual feelings. Rather this theory is paranoia from my disability, or being overly generous towards him I don't really know.

 

6 hours ago, Scottthespy said:

I think that it is impossible to have a relationship with some one who won't talk, wont be open, who hides, as you said. Any issue that pops up in the relationship will sit and fester instead of getting worked through. Small things will become huge problems

Throughout my relationship with my ex, there were constant conversations about boundaries and compromise. They always became circular with him promising a change/agreeing to a compromise. Ultimately I lost trust in the validity of his consent. I was absolutely terrified he was agreeing to stuff he didn't want for reasons unclear to me. He would always reassure me it was fine and what he wanted, but weeks later it would come out he had a "clarification" of his feelings and realized he never wanted what be agreed to. This is the scenario where he tells me I've been coercive towards him. It fucks with me to no end.

 

Someone around here called my ex a whackadoodle so maybe all of this is just a isolated issue. But with the lively comments I feel like it was worth bringing up.

 

9 hours ago, uhtred said:

Dropping sex and gender,  lets say that there is a couple A and B.   B is behaving in a way X that makes A deeply unhappy, but which is not illegal. A has asked B do change their behavior but B does not change.  (whether unable or unwilling may not be obvious to either of them).  A can either say "stop doing X or I will leave".  Or, simply leave without explanation.   Which is better?

I personally feel the explanation one is better and makes someone less of an asshole. I feel all parties deserve to know why a relationship issue is occurring. I get confused with a lot of the coercion stuff because I feel there is a type of double standard.

 

No one says a wife is coercive if she tells her husband "I will leave if you don't change/stop your drinking." No one says a mom is coercive if she tells her adult child "I will kick you out if you don't start looking for employment."

 

But when someone says they want to leave for a more personal reason (like dissatisfaction with sex or desires for more frequent talking) it becomes coercive. I really fail to see what the diffrences are other than context, frequency of communication attempts, and intent to follow through. 

 

11 hours ago, Guest said:

If something is a deal breaker for you I fail to understand why you stay?

The issue of why people don't leave came up here a lot, and I go back to my mention of oversimplification earlier. I venture that most relationships that people want to work on are about more than sex. When someone leaves, a hole of some type will appear in their life. Maybe they lose their Friday night movie buddy, maybe they lose their emotional confidant, maybe they lose mutual friends, maybe they lose the security of having a special someone. Leaving is hard because you know you are unhappy, but wonder (hope honestly) if it will get better so you can avoid more hurt. It's a weighing process. 

 

Further, why not stick around for awhile if your partner (someone you should trust) tells you they are interested in change/compromise and will try? On the timescale it takes to reach this level of conflict, what's another 2 weeks? But then those 2 weeks turn into months when a partner makes the same promise again...

 

Note: As a social researcher, I want to point out that there are several robust criticisms of the Duluth Power and Control Wheel (some of which are from the creators). The criticisms are good things to consider, such as implicit bias, when investigating interpersonal violence and conflict.

[Guest Guest. (Sea horse)]

2 hours ago, MisterNowhere said:

No one says a wife is coercive if she tells her husband "I will leave if you don't change/stop your drinking." No one says a mom is coercive if she tells her adult child "I will kick you out if you don't start looking for employment."

 

But when someone says they want to leave for a more personal reason (like dissatisfaction with sex or desires for more frequent talking) it becomes coercive. I really fail to see what the diffrences are other than context, frequency of communication attempts, and intent to follow through. 

It makes me sad that you can read all of the accounts of how it feels as an asexual to have sex that you don't want, and then fail to distinguish having sex from any other thing within a relationship. 

 

That's why I can't comment anymore. 

 

i think that our grandkids will probably look back on these attitudes as barbaric. 

 

Edit: re the Duluth power and control wheel - I have a masters degree in social work, so I know that there is no theory or tool in social work that cannot or should not be viewed critically. However on balance I think that this is a usefui tool (I did leave social work because I disagreed with a lot of the practices so I am not someone who is unable to be critical)

 

 

[MisterNowhere]

6 hours ago, Guest. (Sea horse) said:

It makes me sad that you can read all of the accounts of how it feels as an asexual to have sex that you don't want, and then fail to distinguish having sex from any other thing within a relationship. 

 

That's why I can't comment anymore. 

 

i think that our grandkids will probably look back on these attitudes as barbaric. 

 

Edit: re the Duluth power and control wheel - I have a masters degree in social work, so I know that there is no theory or tool in social work that cannot or should not be viewed critically. However on balance I think that this is a usefui tool (I did leave social work because I disagreed with a lot of the practices so I am not someone who is unable to be critical)

 

 

Please don't assume I don't know what it's like to have unwanted sex or attention. I have been flat out raped twice, groomed by older men, groped in public, and the unfortunate recipient of "suprise" kink from my ace ex.

 

Also, please don't assume I'm some archetype of an allosexual. I've spent the majority of my life in a grey-ace and demisexual space. That's how I ended up thinking I could make a life partnership with an ace person work. There's a reason there's a bunch of question marks in my bio here.

 

It's not that I can't separate sex from other aspects of a relationship. I can't accept being called coercive when I want to leave a relationship where I'm treated like crap and my needs are ignored by a person who goes back on their promises with the justification being their sexuality. I mean, they could just never make the promise and accept when I leave. It seems incredibly selfish to try and bind someone to you with false promises because you don't want to be lonely.

 

My ace could leave me for wanting sex, so why is the reverse so inflammatory? I want to try and understand the viewpoints on this reverse side because it seems like a really common train of thought.

 

And honestly, at the moment, I just think this equation of coercion with boundary setting is the line of thought that ties people to unhealthy relationships. People get shamed when they leave for a boundary that is not socially acceptable enough. I get to be the bad boyfriend when I left another ex for threatening to rape me behind a dumpster. I get to be the selfish boyfriend when I left another who wouldn't maintain her mental health or take her meds. Most recently I got to be the manipulative boyfriend when I told my ex ace that I wanted to leave if he wouldn't tell his parents we were about to get engaged (this is two years in after he said he would do it before the 1.5 year mark). These intersections of coercion/boundary are rubbing against me wrong because it really seems to assert that some people's boundaries are more meaningful than others for reasons. And I can't help but ask if those reasons are rooted in expectations that people accept whatever their partner does except in special case (hence, the alcohol example in my last post).

 

An ace not wanting to have sex is just as valid as an allo wanting to have sex. So how is it coercive when a partner asserts their boundary over this? Is it somehow better to just assume all aces are the same and leave without asking them for a change?

 

For me it's never been just the sex. It's the broken promises. The telling me my alloness is disgusting. The telling me they can't stop patting my ass in public because they don't understand why it upsets me if I want compromised sexual attention.

 

Please refrain from referring to my attitudes as barbaric when I am actively seeking additional infromation to learn and grow. All that does is stifle dialogue and incite upset feelings. If it keeps you from posting that is your own prerogative.

 

Also, I never asserted the Power and Control wheel was not still a valuable tool. I just said that people should think critically when using it. I used it this week when teaching bystander intervention.

[Joi ❤]

In all honesty, I may be naive and ignorant on all things social. I feel like I am getting in way over my head by interjecting here, but I want to join the conversation and hopefully add to it. I agree with @Guest. (Sea horse) hands down. I wish I could like all your posts on here (I don't know why I can't).

 

9 hours ago, MisterNowhere said:

 

21 hours ago, Guest said:

If something is a deal breaker for you I fail to understand why you stay?

The issue of why people don't leave came up here a lot, and I go back to my mention of oversimplification earlier. I venture that most relationships that people want to work on are about more than sex. When someone leaves, a hole of some type will appear in their life. Maybe they lose their Friday night movie buddy, maybe they lose their emotional confidant, maybe they lose mutual friends, maybe they lose the security of having a special someone. Leaving is hard because you know you are unhappy, but wonder (hope honestly) if it will get better so you can avoid more hurt. It's a weighing process. 

That is.. wow. The person stays and coerces (yes I believe its coercion) sex from someone that not only says they don't want to (by saying they are asexual) but also shows it through their actions (avoiding the subject of sex, not continuing sex, etc) and instead of leaving they stay unhappy and complain because they may lose a movie night buddy???????? There is no comparison.

 

Have all of you defending this type of behavior just stopped and wondered if you are asking for too much. The aces in the relationships discussed are noticeably (at least to me) uncomfortable. Just leave. Stop saying you will and just do it otherwise it's just a threat (coercive). If you want sex and it needs to be good sex then leave. My heart goes out to all the aces in this situation ❤. Choosing between leaving a great relationship that you see nothing wrong with and your body/peace of mind is crazy and I'm sorry that you had to deal with that @Guest. (Sea horse). I just don't think they get it. 

 

54 minutes ago, MisterNowhere said:

Please don't assume I don't know what it's like to have unwanted sex or attention. I have been flat out raped twice, groomed by older men, groped in public, and the unfortunate recipient of "suprise" kink from my ace ex.

I'm sorry you had to deal with that @MisterNowhere and I truly wish you well. Please if you don't mind me asking (genuine ignorance hear, no judgment), If you understand what it's like to be on the side of being pressured into sex and that was an unwanted experience why are you so intent on convincing aces that threatening to leave is not coercion? Can't you see that it's asking for too much and putting them in a position they don't want to be in?

 

1 hour ago, MisterNowhere said:

My ace could leave me for wanting sex, so why is the reverse so inflammatory? I want to try and understand the viewpoints on this reverse side because it seems like a really common train of thought.

If your asexual partner threatened to leave you for wanting to have sex with them or for even mentioning sex but continued to stay with you that would be coercion. I would say the same thing to them. "Just leave. Your asking for too much. You have put your partner in an uncomfortable and unwanted position for your personal gain. You are trying to have it both ways (keep the relationship and not have sex) while understanding that hurts your partner. This is selfish and manipulative. They have already made it clear their position on the matter and so have you. Why are you staying? There is nothing more to say to each other."

 

I have so much more to say (especially on understanding the point of view of people who are sexual) but I think this post is long enough. I truly wish everyone the best. So many hurt people all around. So many wounds to heal. Where do we start? ❤

                  Answer: Take a look in the mirror.... (Micheal Jackson) ❤

[Guest]

Um first of all... Obviously it's coercion to tell someone they have to stop drinking or you'll leave. The difference is, getting help for an addiction  benefits them, whereas having sex one doesn't want does not benefit them. 

 

When the words that come out of your mouth can be boiled down to "hurt yourself for me or I'm gone," that's fucked up. And when the reason why you're asking someone to hurt themselves for you is simply that you don't want to feel pain yourself (the pain of a breakup), that makes you coercive, selfish and immature. 

 

There is no excuse for demanding that your partner do something that is objectively harmful and subjectively unwanted. No excuse. 

 

You can leave and you can tell them the reason you're leaving is sex, absolutely. Communication is great. My assumption is that by the time someone is ready to leave, a lot of talking and negotiating has occurred. 

 

If, however, you've crossed the line from "let's find a way to make this mutually enjoyable" over to "suck it up and do it anyway," you need to go. That's not love anymore imo. 

[tase]

Had this discussion the other day with a lovely lady. I understand my mostly Ace brain thinks different thoughts than a “typical” male brain. My point was how in the world could the guy find any enjoyment in any activity (especially sex) with someone he knows 100% wants no part in this activity. It simply does not compute. 

[Joi ❤]

1 hour ago, MisterNowhere said:

And honestly, at the moment, I just think this equation of coercion with boundary setting is the line of thought that ties people to unhealthy relationships. People get shamed when they leave for a boundary that is not socially acceptable enough. I get to be the bad boyfriend when I left another ex for threatening to rape me behind a dumpster. I get to be the selfish boyfriend when I left another who wouldn't maintain her mental health or take her meds. Most recently I got to be the manipulative boyfriend when I told my ex ace that I wanted to leave if he wouldn't tell his parents we were about to get engaged (this is two years in after he said he would do it before the 1.5 year mark). These intersections of coercion/boundary are rubbing against me wrong because it really seems to assert that some people's boundaries are more meaningful than others for reasons. And I can't help but ask if those reasons are rooted in expectations that people accept whatever their partner does except in special case (hence, the alcohol example in my last post).

You're not a bad boyfriend for leaving an abusive ex who threatened to rape you. You're not a selfish boyfriend for leaving due to an ex-partner having mental health issues and refusing to deal with them. You're not a manipulative boyfriend for telling your ex asexual partner you're uncomfortable with signing a binding social contract after not keeping their word for such a long period of time and leaving (I'm not sure if you left or not but I'm making the assumption). These are all good calls to break up with someone and whoever is making you feel like you're bad, selfish and manipulative for setting boundaries and following through on your word is also coercive. Please for your sake surround yourself with better company. 

 

2 hours ago, MisterNowhere said:

An ace not wanting to have sex is just as valid as an allo wanting to have sex. So how is it coercive when a partner asserts their boundary over this? Is it somehow better to just assume all aces are the same and leave without asking them for a change?

I agree both are valid experiences (not more or less but different). Asking for change is communication and boundary setting. Leaving is following through on your word. "When you assume you make an a** out of u and me" This quote has helped me with a lot and I believe it can help in everyone's relationships. 

 

2 hours ago, MisterNowhere said:

For me it's never been just the sex. It's the broken promises. The telling me my alloness is disgusting. The telling me they can't stop patting my ass in public because they don't understand why it upsets me if I want compromised sexual attention.

I'm sorry you've been hurt so much by the people you hold closest to your heart. If you don't mind, I would like to try and piece together the experiences you've described here for understanding (not to diminish your experience). I can honestly say that until I delved deep to understand the point of view of allosexuals I was ignorant of all things relating to sex and sexuality. It's way more complex than just saying it's when you desire to have sexual interactions with someone and I can see it is the same for people on the other side trying to understand asexuality. It's helped me to keep in mind that when there is any difference between two people it will shape two totally different worldviews from race to gender to sexuality to like cake. I say this not to make light of what you've just described (which I see as verbal abuse and assault) but to bring an answer to why they would do that. 

 

Here are some things that blew my mind about or that I misunderstood about sex and sexuality:

1. People use sex for more than making other people

2. The fact that people find sex/sexual contact distasteful to do in public yet make sex jokes (?????????)

3. That people call each other "dirty" when having sex but they don't actually like being thought of as dirty outside of a sexual context (???????????)

4. That sex can be a vulnerable and intimate connection tied to the other attractions, connections, and desires someone feels for a person

 

Many more where that came from but I think what happened in the interactions you described above(if your partner did not have malicious intent and even if they did explaining why they might have thought it was okay due to ignorance on the subject) is that your partner tried to meet your expectations (in the public grope situation) and does not understand that your specific desire for sex and how you want it to be reciprocated. Unfortunately, I could see myself doing that only because I would be thinking, "Oh, they like when I do that so let's do that" and would instantly be filled with remorse and embarrassment to here that I misunderstood your need and hurt you. I would be trying to do it for you but I would be socially awkward in a sexual manner (not knowing the social norms surrounding sexuality). I am not saying this is what happened. I wasn't there and I don't know the intent of your partner but if it was malicious (knowing that you wouldn't like it) then I'm sorry you had to go through that and hope they apologized and never do it again.

 

As for calling you disgusting for enjoying/desiring sex, this is not ok. If done without malicious intent (to knowingly hurt you), then it would be best to explain how you feel when they say that part of who you are is disgusting. They could have tried to "talk dirty" and hit a nerve or maybe they meant it in a negative manner but due to ignorance didn't understand why being called disgusting is a verbal attack on your personhood. They may think you can just stop thinking that way (see it as something you do and not who you are). If they were malicious, they should apologize, reevaluate how they see you and sexuality as a whole, and never do it again. 

 

Communication is key. No assumptions, no namecalling, and no lack of respect. Openmindedness and compassion are important. Remember: You love this person you want to make it work and to see them happy. You're not enemies where one must win and the other lose. You're partners. You're both also human and you have limits, needs, and boundaries that should be balanced with the person else it won't work. ❤

[Xstatic]

 

4 hours ago, Joi ❤ said:

That is.. wow. The person stays and coerces (yes I believe its coercion) sex from someone that not only says they don't want to (by saying they are asexual) but also shows it through their actions (avoiding the subject of sex, not continuing sex, etc) and instead of leaving they stay unhappy and complain because they may lose a movie night buddy???????? There is no comparison.

 

Have all of you defending this type of behavior just stopped and wondered if you are asking for too much. The aces in the relationships discussed are noticeably (at least to me) uncomfortable. Just leave. Stop saying you will and just do it otherwise it's just a threat (coercive). If you want sex and it needs to be good sex then leave. My heart goes out to all the aces in this situation ❤. Choosing between leaving a great relationship that you see nothing wrong with and your body/peace of mind is crazy and I'm sorry that you had to deal with that @Guest. (Sea horse). I just don't think they get it. 

I completely agree.  I am actually having a hard time understanding why others don't see this.  I'm not ace, but this makes complete sense to me.  I guess, again, because I lived through it, and it was terrible and horribly abusive.

[uhtred]

10 hours ago, skullery said:

Um first of all... Obviously it's coercion to tell someone they have to stop drinking or you'll leave. The difference is, getting help for an addiction  benefits them, whereas having sex one doesn't want does not benefit them. 

 

When the words that come out of your mouth can be boiled down to "hurt yourself for me or I'm gone," that's fucked up. And when the reason why you're asking someone to hurt themselves for you is simply that you don't want to feel pain yourself (the pain of a breakup), that makes you coercive, selfish and immature. 

 

There is no excuse for demanding that your partner do something that is objectively harmful and subjectively unwanted. No excuse. 

 

You can leave and you can tell them the reason you're leaving is sex, absolutely. Communication is great. My assumption is that by the time someone is ready to leave, a lot of talking and negotiating has occurred. 

 

If, however, you've crossed the line from "let's find a way to make this mutually enjoyable" over to "suck it up and do it anyway," you need to go. That's not love anymore imo. 

Sometimes the situation is complicated.  I decided, as you suggest, that telling my wife "have sex with me or I"m divorcing you" was not OK.  So when things got bad enough,  I decided to divorce her. I didn't start with "we are getting divorced", I started with something like "Things are not working for me,.....never have sex.....  so I'm asking for a divorce".  But - before I got to "I am asking for a divorce" she stopped me and said she was sorry and wanted to have more sex. 

 

Now what?  In this case I decided to give her a chance rather than just end a 25 year marriage. We did have more sex - for a while, then it dwindled.  So I talked  to her again - good sex for a while, then faded.   Had a very very clear talk (which upset her) letting her know what I really needed to be happy.   Sex for a while, then dwindled. Waited about 2 years, then brought it up again when she asked why I seemed so unhappy on our vacation / anniversary trip. When I told her it had been months since we had had sex, she said she had no idea it was so important to me.  Sex started again.  I assume it will fade away in a few months. 

 

Do I just divorce her without warning when sex fades again? Do I keep asking?   She always claims to enjoy sex in general - just very rarely wants it at any particular time. 

 

So the problem with "leaving and telling them the reason" is what do you do if they basically say "I'd rather have sex than have you leave".   Do you leave anyway?

 

I'm not trying to be difficult here, but at least for me the reality has not matched the way things should work. My wife's words and actions have always been dramatically different. She always indicates that in general she wants an active sex life - but rarely wants to actually have one. 

[Sally]

34 minutes ago, uhtred said:

Sometimes the situation is complicated.  I decided, as you suggest, that telling my wife "have sex with me or I"m divorcing you" was not OK.  So when things got bad enough,  I decided to divorce her. I didn't start with "we are getting divorced", I started with something like "Things are not working for me,.....never have sex.....  so I'm asking for a divorce".  But - before I got to "I am asking for a divorce" she stopped me and said she was sorry and wanted to have more sex. 

 

Now what?  In this case I decided to give her a chance rather than just end a 25 year marriage. We did have more sex - for a while, then it dwindled.  So I talked  to her again - good sex for a while, then faded.   Had a very very clear talk (which upset her) letting her know what I really needed to be happy.   Sex for a while, then dwindled. Waited about 2 years, then brought it up again when she asked why I seemed so unhappy on our vacation / anniversary trip. When I told her it had been months since we had had sex, she said she had no idea it was so important to me.  Sex started again.  I assume it will fade away in a few months. 

 

Do I just divorce her without warning when sex fades again? Do I keep asking?   She always claims to enjoy sex in general - just very rarely wants it at any particular time. 

 

 

Maybe this is a situation where you should consider what is actually (not) happening, rather than what she is telling you.  

[Guest]

5 hours ago, uhtred said:

Sometimes the situation is complicated.... 

Ok, so. I feel like this has all gone backwards, but that's life, right? Before talking, you threatened divorce. She got in line. Things fell by the wayside. Then you talked about it, telling her what you need and trying to figure it out. Ideally the talking would have happened first, rather than the divorce threat, because now that'll always be in her head. She's always going to try to pull it together, but it's always going to dwindle.

 

I don't think... I mean, I don't know either of you obviously... but patterns are patterns, and what you have is a pattern. I doubt it's going to stop unless you stop it.

 

Either you guys agree that when frequency wanes too much, you'll let her know and she'll pick it up, or else you are going to have to just leave. She'll always say she'll have more sex. At this point you need to accept that it's not going to happen. So, either you're able to successfully remind her without threats, or, you'll have to leave. But she's not going to change. 

[Guest]

It would be nice if we could never mention breaking up as an option in relationships... but in reality, if you are at a breaking point, it comes up. And I don't think it's a bad thing, if given in a respectful way.

 

There is a difference in "I am unhappy. I have been thinking and seriously considering divorce. I would like to try to work on this together, if possible, if not, then I just cannot handle this as it is"   vs "If you don't give me what I want, I am leaving ! " 

 

My relationship recently reached a breaking point. And, she asked me if I wanted to still be with her after we discussed me being so hurt. I said I don't know. Not to threaten, but as an honest response, I had no idea what I wanted when she asked. I was in a cloud of pain and couldn't imagine a future either way. 

 

But... through a lot of talking we are working out a this can work for both of us, but its gonna take a lot of work. We have said we will put in the work. Hopefully it will stick. If not, then we will cross that bridge when we get to it. But, sometimes it takes a breaking point to even get to the negotiating table to see if there is a way to work it out. But, it kind of needs to be even ? Like, mutual sharing of feelings - is this working for you? Is it working for me ? And an agreement if it can't work for both then it is best to call it quits. If it is all one sided "gimme, gimme now or I am out" without care for the other side, yeah that's coercion. A relationship is an equal partnership. So care for both sides feelings needs to be involved in working out issues. 

 

Though, that can become tough when one side won't tell you their true feelings. Then, issues tend to never resolve cause honesty is key in any big deal discussion. 

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, CBC said:

@Serran In all sincerity, that's one of the best posts I've ever read on AVEN.

Ha, thank you. 😛

 

I've been playing the line a lot between discussing and threatening lately. It is honestly one you have to be careful to not cross. When you discuss such a big deal, it is easy to accidentally come off as threatening, even if not your intention. But, I am practicing keeping my emotions in check for them. And I honestly feel rather positive about everything lately. Hopefully it continues.

 

But, yeah, stating needs and feelings is needed. Threats are not. Finding out how to do one without the other is hard. But, worth working out how. 

[Guest]

I think the question is, though... say you go through that same thing four, five times. What if your partner continues to say they'll change, does for awhile, and stops? At what point do you stop having the convos and either leave, or accept it for what it is? 

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, skullery said:

I think the question is, though... say you go through that same thing four, five times. What if your partner continues to say they'll change, does for awhile, and stops? At what point do you stop having the convos and either leave, or accept it for what it is? 

Well. I guess it depends, cause life isn't cut and dry. Is there any new information ? Has anything changed ? Progress made but it isn't quite what you had hoped? Or is it just a repeat over and over and all has been said and tried ? 

 

In my case, I have new information given to me. Progress made. And thus the situation changed and how to approach it changed. 

 

But... we both know this is the last time for this exact situation. If nothing changes, it just isnt workable. But, instead of just one of us changing and stating needs, we are both adjusting things to try to meet each others needs in ways that make the overall situation better. 

 

So. For my specific case, we agreed one more chance, or we either split or change the conversation completely. 

 

For others... its gonna vary by situation. 

[uhtred]

3 hours ago, skullery said:

Ok, so. I feel like this has all gone backwards, but that's life, right? Before talking, you threatened divorce. She got in line. Things fell by the wayside. Then you talked about it, telling her what you need and trying to figure it out. Ideally the talking would have happened first, rather than the divorce threat, because now that'll always be in her head. She's always going to try to pull it together, but it's always going to dwindle.

 

I don't think... I mean, I don't know either of you obviously... but patterns are patterns, and what you have is a pattern. I doubt it's going to stop unless you stop it.

 

Either you guys agree that when frequency wanes too much, you'll let her know and she'll pick it up, or else you are going to have to just leave. She'll always say she'll have more sex. At this point you need to accept that it's not going to happen. So, either you're able to successfully remind her without threats, or, you'll have to leave. But she's not going to change. 

No  -  maybe my writing was not clear. I never threatened. I never even got to the point where I asked for a divorce - I it was about 30 seconds away in the conversation,  She may have no idea I considered it. 

 

Talking did happen first - as it had multiple times before.  She always agrees in words, but never follows through.   I'm well aware now that things will never change and have decided to stay.  Since talking fixes thigns for a while, when the wane too badly, I talk. She gets upset, things get better, things dwindle. repeat.   

 

The frustrating part is that she gives every impression in words and actions of actually enjoying sex .

[uhtred]

9 hours ago, Sally said:

Maybe this is a situation where you should consider what is actually (not) happening, rather than what she is telling you.  

Agreed.  When someones words and actions don't match though, it can be quite difficult. 

 

Some progress in the last few years.  I learned that asexuallity existed .  I think she finally did some reading and discovered that sex once every few months was not typical for couples.  In the past I think she thought my desire for sex roughly once a week was simply unreasonable.   (btw "sex" doesn't mean PIV - haven't done that in years, it means "any sexual activity - always of her choice")

[Xstatic]

42 minutes ago, uhtred said:

The frustrating part is that she gives every impression in words and actions of actually enjoying sex .

She actually might.  Being asexual doesn't mean you can't enjoy sex.  Like, I know that my boyfriend enjoys the sex, but he doesn't ever think of doing it and is never compelled to have it.  I may as well be asking him to go rock climbing.  

[Xstatic]

Also, @uhtred I really like @skullery's suggestion of gentle reminders which is what it sounds like you are doing.  Maybe just try not to wait until your breaking point.  Also, talk to her about it as a system.  Let her know that you are considering it as a system to make sure that she understands it and that it doesn't come across as nagging.  Just a thought.

 

Also, I want to address some of the questions asked the other day.  I didn't have the time back then.  Do I think that talking about your relationship expectations are coersive?  No.  Absolutely not.  But I also don't think that you should guilt your partner into using their body in a way they are clearly uncomfortable with.  The mental damage and loss of self-esteem is a horrible cost to that person.  If you need more from someone, you have to move on.  But don't shame the person who can't give you what you want in terms of their own body and willingness to experiment.  Some people just have very different levels of comfort.  It doesn't make them a shitty person.  It doesn't make you a shitty person for wanting something more.  

I actually tried desperately to keep my last partner happy.  But there were certain things I wasn't willing to do.  I didn't want him to feel like he could never fulfill those wants and desires, so I opened up the marriage.  But all he ever used that for was anger/revenge f'ing and that was like, my only rule.  So he completely violated my trust when all I wanted was for him to be happy and satisfied with me being me.  But in the end, I've come to really realize that he didn't think of me as an equal.  I was beneath him, and he reminded me of that often.  His goal was to change me, and I didn't want to change.

 

I *wish* he would have just talked to me about it like a person who has feelings.  I *wish* I could have left that relationship feeling respected and just not compatible.  Instead, I left it feeling dirty and used and worthless.  And I left it with a bottle of pills.

[MisterNowhere]

21 hours ago, Joi ❤ said:

That is.. wow. The person stays and coerces (yes I believe its coercion) sex from someone that not only says they don't want to (by saying they are asexual) but also shows it through their actions (avoiding the subject of sex, not continuing sex, etc) and instead of leaving they stay unhappy and complain because they may lose a movie night buddy???????? There is no comparison.

 

Have all of you defending this type of behavior just stopped and wondered if you are asking for too much. The aces in the relationships discussed are noticeably (at least to me) uncomfortable. Just leave. Stop saying you will and just do it otherwise it's just a threat (coercive). If you want sex and it needs to be good sex then leave. My heart goes out to all the aces in this situation ❤. Choosing between leaving a great relationship that you see nothing wrong with and your body/peace of mind is crazy and I'm sorry that you had to deal with that @Guest. (Sea horse). I just don't think they get it. 

Why does one person in the relationship have to make assumptions that what the other says is false? Is it not reasonable to believe what a partner says at face value? If my ace tells me they want sex, but I bring up their avoidance and they countinue to say they want it, why do I have to assume they are just lieing? Can't they just be straight up and say no?

 

My ace calls me and tells me how bad he wants (insert explicit sexual details), I ask if he is sure since two days ago we agreed to no sex for the month and the sudden change makes me uncomfortable, and then my ace tells me its disrespectful to doubt what he says (this ignores the frequent hissy fits he throws when I turn down his advances). Why does the allo become the asshole here?  Because they did not assume that an ace person agreeing to or asking for sex is inherently a coerced behavior somehow?? Further, is it really that unreasonable for an allo to stay if an ace partner insists they like sex and initiates (and all you ask for is more frequent or reciprocal times)?

 

I do stop and think if I'm asking too much. But if I talk to my partner about it, and they tell me my ask is totally reasonable and I believe them. I don't see how I end up in the wrong for accepting their assertion that I'm not asking too much. I fail to see how its reasonable to expect a partner to take on responsibility for another adult's inability to assert their boundaries.

 

I think the point about losing social connections has validity. Long term relationships are major life factors for a lot of people. My ex ace talked about how he didn't want me to study abroad or go on forign vacations because then he wouldn't have his social companion (me) for awhile. His exact reasons being he wouldn't have anyone to sit with him in his art studio while he works. Me being physically away was a price high enough for him to say he would leave if I went abroad, and it was a price low enough for me to stay stateside. There's diffrent kinds of unhappiness and they all have a diffrent price. The price of hearing my ex ace debase my gender presentation was a lot lower than sex for me (at the time) so I stayed when he started talking that BS.