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Why is being Nonbinary SO HARD????


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Ok, so I was out shopping one day, and these people just STARED at me. Like, stared. WHAT THE HECK?!?!WHY CAN'T I JUST GO SHOPPING FOR CLOTHES WITHOUT BEING STARED AT?!?! I'm just minding my own business, trying to shop for some more clothes, and they stopped in their tracks and stared at me. It was like I could read their minds though. They were probably like, WHY IS A GIRL SHOPPING IN THE BOY'S SECTION?!?! BRO! I CAN WEAR WHAT I WANT!! MIND YOUR OWN BEESWAX! 

 

But, like, why is being nonbinary SO HARD though?!?! I get weird looks pretty much everywhere I go! Does anyone else have this experience?

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Yes. This is exactly what I've experienced since I was a kid; I've gotten better at just ignoring others and just shopping/walking, etc.

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Some people seem to hate it when they can't tell if someone is male or female - they get a bit obsessed about it.  Hopefully seeing more non-binary people out in the world will get them to realize that it doesn't really matter. 

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this is why i shop online.

i can pretend like it doesn't bother me all i want but it does and i can't take it.

so i shop online.

that sucks that that happened to you tho. if you can make it a light-hearted situation like that and be like "do you mind.???" then you are a better person than me! 

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DuranDuranfan

That’s odd. I’ve never had that happen to me. Not even when buying boxer shorts and boxer briefs. And I’m not even physically androgynous! Maybe it’s because I do it with a Zero Fucks Given type attitude.

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I am cis, but I shop in the mens section more often than womens lately. Shirts are longer, pants have pockets, sweaters are warm and not see through. Just all around better clothes. I am quite open about wearing mens clothes and no one has ever cared. My mom does it too, cause she needs pockets at work that can actually hold stuff. 

 

Around here it is extremely socially acceptable for women to be in the mens section. So seems odd to me anyone would care. If they arent buying for themselves, they do most the shopping for boyfriends or husbands, so are in there for that. 

 

Should walk up to anyone that stares and ask if you have mustard on your shirt or something, for them to be so interested. Might embarass them and make them remember manners. Shouldn't matter what section you shop in. 

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I say let them look and then by the same outfit and wear it better then they do!

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Chasing Headlights

I feel you. I have always worn men's sneakers even before I knew I was NB. Few weeks ago they got too old and fell apart on my feet, so I went into a shoe shop, pointed at the shoes on my feet and said "these ones please." And the woman was so confused "they're men's shoes??? But already on her feet ??!?"

 

When I shop jeans in the men's section (slim straight for life) people usually leave me alone but in case anyone asks "I am just browsing"  

 

Everything is unisex if you stop being a b*tch about it ... 

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anisotrophic

My guess is that it's much harder for AMAB folks, so I have trouble feeling much self pity on this issue.

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2 hours ago, anisotrophic said:

My guess is that it's much harder for AMAB folks, so I have trouble feeling much self pity on this issue.

So, AFAB people aren't allowed to share or express their feelings, their pain, etc., just because they're not AMAB? If gender-nonconforming AFAB people feel alone and suicidal, due to experiencing years of strangers staring, gossiping and laughing at them all the time because they feel confused about a stranger's gender; due to being gender-nonconforming, but not knowing or understanding anything about it; experiencing years of social anxiety, due to worrying if gender-conforming AFAB people might freak out, scared, and call the police on them because they might assume (due to local states' gender bathroom bills, in conservative states/areas) their feelings don't matter, just because they weren't AMAB?

 

Not every AFAB person/non-binary, etc. passes or "looks" cis-presenting. Not all have the same body type, physical features, etc. Some of us look androgynous to others, which does cause problems that most people don't seem to know or care about: others assuming they're AMAB and might be dangerous to other cis AFAB, gender-conforming people when they're in a women's restroom, in a store, etc. (Sometimes, for some AFAB, trying to look more gender-conforming and wear clothes assigned to your gender still causes others to stare and laugh, thinking you're MTF trans).

 

It's not great, constantly worrying that a stranger might call the police or security or harm them (if they don't like LGBT+ people), who might then also believe that a gender-conforming person is really a cis, AMAB who might be planning to sexually assault AFAB people (and might physically tackle them, point their weapon at them, tase them, etc. And, yeah, when I was a kid, an older woman angrily told me to use the boy's restroom, which upset me a lot, being a kid who'd never experienced that, before, causing years of anxiety and worry that the same thing might happen, again). Living in conservative areas, where locals have expressed dislike of LGBT+ can cause that fear and loneliness.

 

It's not great, growing up fearing that an employer might decide to fire me, just for not appearing or acting in a certain, cis-presenting way that others in society might want--or because others might assume my gender-nonconforming personality means I'm gay (yeah, a couple of young teens laughed at me for that, too, in public, when being gay wasn't spoken about in schools at all).

 

It doesn't feel great or easy to feel as though all AFAB have rejected an AFAB gender-nonconforming person because they fear or assume they're AMAB who might harm them; it feels lonely.

 

The OP was only asking whether others were going through the same thing; it wasn't meant to be a comparison of, "Who has it worse: AMAB or AFAB?"

 

That's great if others haven't experienced years of growing up being stared and laughed at for being gender-nonconforming (and even for trying to be gender-conforming). But, I don't feel it's cool to dismiss others' pain, loneliness, confusion, (especially their depression and suicidal thoughts) about being thought of as strange or weird by cis, gender-conforming people, etc., basically telling them that they should continue to stay silent, suffer with their experiences and emotions, alone, etc., that it doesn't matter just because they were AFAB and not AMAB. What if the OP is a teen?


Not every gender-nonconforming person is a part of LGBT+ groups or has friends who've experienced these situations; they don't have any other place to talk to others who've experienced these things, to help them cope with how others in society think they're strange or weird, just for not looking gender-conforming, find solutions, etc.

 

Some live in conservative areas, where there aren't a lot of LGBT+ people who are "out," where locals still expect everyone they see to be gender-conforming people; it's not the same as living in a more liberal city, with a lot more diversity, where others might not care about what others look like or what they're wearing.

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19 hours ago, Whovian06 said:

Ok, so I was out shopping one day, and these people just STARED at me. Like, stared. WHAT THE HECK?!?!WHY CAN'T I JUST GO SHOPPING FOR CLOTHES WITHOUT BEING STARED AT?!?! I'm just minding my own business, trying to shop for some more clothes, and they stopped in their tracks and stared at me. It was like I could read their minds though. They were probably like, WHY IS A GIRL SHOPPING IN THE BOY'S SECTION?!?! BRO! I CAN WEAR WHAT I WANT!! MIND YOUR OWN BEESWAX! 

 

But, like, why is being nonbinary SO HARD though?!?! I get weird looks pretty much everywhere I go! Does anyone else have this experience?

I think men would have it a lot harder shopping in the women's section, but yeah. Being NB is only hard at the interface with society IMO. Otherwise it's great! :-)

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3 hours ago, Chasing Headlights said:

I feel you. I have always worn men's sneakers even before I knew I was NB. Few weeks ago they got too old and fell apart on my feet, so I went into a shoe shop, pointed at the shoes on my feet and said "these ones please." And the woman was so confused "they're men's shoes??? But already on her feet ??!?"

 

When I shop jeans in the men's section (slim straight for life) people usually leave me alone but in case anyone asks "I am just browsing"  

 

Everything is unisex if you stop being a b*tch about it ... 

I had a similar experience when I needed new glasses. Are they gendered or what!! I couldn't even choose glasses in the section I wanted for fear of me wearing 'the wrong glasses' in the face of society. Needless to say I made a comment. If you open your eyes to it (pardon the pun) it's amazing, the things you see are gendered and shouldn't be, sadly.

 

Generally, I don't give a toss... and when it's too awkward, I buy online.

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anisotrophic

@InquisitivePhilosopher god forbid I share my personal experience as an AFAB non-binary person that has been shopping for men's clothes for years, and has recently started T?

If the OP is distressed about it, they can express that and seek support and sympathy. It didn't come off as particularly distressed or fearful ("BRO, MIND YOUR OWN BEESWAX"). They said it was "SO HARD" and asked about our experiences. So, I shared mine.

Anytime I feel weird about buying men's clothes, I think about how it feels to go the other way, and I decide I can suck it up. The least I can do is just go ahead and do my thing, my little way to act in gender-nonconformist solidarity with all the AMAB folks that are going to have it a lot harder than I do.

And yeah, there's plenty of alternative tactics. I've also bought stuff online, I've let people think I'm shopping for a boyfriend/partner/sibling/etc. But also, when I do become open about it? It's been a welcome discovery: some strangers are sometimes surprisingly supportive once I get over my internal narrative. This happens over and over.

So, for the most part I discover that discomfort is imagined (I mean: with respect to buying men's clothing). Yes, we face discomfort, but at some point my personal experience – especially when I'm experiencing an imagined narrative based on what I think people think – is that I personally dislike pitying myself on this front. I prefer to decide to take it on the chin (like a man?). I use the contrast with AMAB folks to push against my feelings of worry or distress, and that's worked out pretty well for me.
 

29 minutes ago, Acing It said:

I had a similar experience when I needed new glasses. Are they gendered or what!!

Warby Parker ftw here.

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Chasing Headlights
13 hours ago, Acing It said:

Generally, I don't give a toss... and when it's too awkward, I buy online.

Same, I generally walk into shops with a "idgaf" attitude and pick whatever I want. The problems only start when a sale's assisant is involved or I have to try something on 🙄

 

Online shopping for the win 🎉

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ElasticPlanet
13 hours ago, anisotrophic said:

Anytime I feel weird about buying men's clothes, I think about how it feels to go the other way, and I decide I can suck it up. The least I can do is just go ahead and do my thing, my little way to act in gender-nonconformist solidarity with all the AMAB folks that are going to have it a lot harder than I do.

I'm just glad to hear whenever I can that this problem is being attacked from both sides (that is, from both of the assigned genders). For me it's been overwhelmingly positive, apart from there being no ungendered or specifically nonbinary stuff on the high street. I've found that with experience, shopping in the places you used to feel you weren't allowed into, gets easier. Now after about 3 years I don't really feel any noticeable extra stress most of the time.

 

And as for there being no clothes targeted at nonbinary people... It's the old market forces thing again. Marks & Spencer had a stand at the main trans pride event in my part of the world, and they were great to talk to about the idea of, well, weakening the gender binary in the things they sell and the way they display them in their shops... But of course, the everyday retail staff aren't the ones who get to make those decisions, and it's ludicrously hard anyway to go against market forces to do the right thing. Back to the OP's point: maybe if there were less gendering built into the retail experience, would the shoppers themselves learn to behave better about all this?

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21 hours ago, anisotrophic said:

Warby Parker ftw here.

Yes, I'll order online as well now I've got a new prescription (hoping my eyes won't get worse!). The problem is that you can't try them in the way you would at an opticians, not that my head is odly shaped or anything 😁

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7 hours ago, Chasing Headlights said:

The problems only start when a sale's assisant is involved or I have to try something on 🙄

Yes, it's very difficult or awkward if you have to try something on. Mixed fitting rooms are not done here, whichever way around. I can only assume some people found it funny to have sex in those in the past.

However, when a sales assistant is involved and you're confident enough you can really mess with their minds 😁

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21 hours ago, anisotrophic said:

So, for the most part I discover that discomfort is imagined

I guess often from bitter experience, which doesn't make your imagined discomfort any less real, if that's not a contradiction in terms.

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On 8/19/2019 at 2:16 AM, Guest said:

why is being nonbinary SO HARD though?!?! I get weird looks pretty much everywhere I go!

Just a wild guess: people aren't comfortable with finding aesthetically attractive one who doesn't fit their sexual orientation.

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Janus the Fox

I guess that my ease into the non-binary role feels rather easy now and trying to fake being male felt much harder than becoming non-binary and more feminine expressing.

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13 hours ago, A Cool Fool said:

I did have the opposite problem sometimes where I would use a women’s restroom and a person would come in, see me, and then leave the bathroom to check the sign on the door before coming back in while staring at me as if I was lost. In hind sight, I’m thankful none of those situations ever escalated the way they could have.  

I have the same with men's restrooms even at work where I am still going as male, although I have a rather femme expression. The more I am myself the more I confuse people about in which gender box they want to put me. This seems to scare some people so much that they get aggressive. Luckily I haven't been physically attacked but have been in situations where this was my worry.

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5 hours ago, Bloc said:

I have the same with men's restrooms even at work where I am still going as male, although I have a rather femme expression. The more I am myself the more I confuse people about in which gender box they want to put me. This seems to scare some people so much that they get aggressive. Luckily I haven't been physically attacked but have been in situations where this was my worry.

This kind of thing is why we need more neutral bathrooms.

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Chasing Headlights
20 hours ago, Karst said:

This kind of thing is why we need more neutral bathrooms.

I agree. When camping in Le Mans they had unisex showers because the showers themselves were in closed off rooms - where you could dress, undress and shower. And I don't see why that doesn't work for toilets when they're in separated rooms than the basins anyway ... 

 

Plus you can add an extra room for an urinal. 

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Yeah! Gender-neutral bathrooms would save time, space and useless organisation. Gendered changing rooms are understandable, but bathrooms... you're locking yourself up anyway... 

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On 8/25/2019 at 7:32 AM, PoeciMeta said:

Yeah! Gender-neutral bathrooms would save time, space and useless organisation. Gendered changing rooms are understandable, but bathrooms... you're locking yourself up anyway... 

I used to take swim lessons when I was younger at a place that had "family" cubicles in the changing area.  You could change without having to let anyone else see you undress or having to go into a gendered space.

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2 minutes ago, Karst said:

I used to take swim lessons when I was younger at a place that had "family" cubicles in the changing area.  You could change without having to let anyone else see you undress or having to go into a gendered space.

Same, but then I had to change in front of my whole family 😕

I gradually stopped going to the swimming pool at all during puberty anyway. 

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1 minute ago, PoeciMeta said:

Same, but then I had to change in front of my whole family 😕

I gradually stopped going to the swimming pool at all during puberty anyway. 

I don't like swimming pools, but not for dysphoria reasons.  It's because I hate having the smell of chlorine on my skin and in my hair afterwards.  Even if I shower, it's still there.

On the other hand, I love swimming in lakes and streams.

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