Extremely uncomfortable the male gaze..

[daveb]

Male here, just taking in what the women here are saying in regard to the main topic.

 

I'm sorry some people aren't feeling welcome or safe even here.  

[Comrade F&F]

@LKinney I'm probably too late in my return, but isn't it unjust to accuse every man for being ignorant of women's plight? This can be turned around and argued that men have been reduced to sexual power-hungry beasts with easily bruised egos. I'm a feminist too but I cringe whenever I read or listen to other feminists. Sometimes I wonder if the women of the past would be rolling in their graves if they saw what feminism has become today.

 

Men don't control society - people as a whole control society. Everything we do, say, and act determines who we are as a society. If the "white man" is at the top oppressing everyone below, someone put them there. To change that, we have to empower everyone. Societies and cultures change, and change takes time. I want a future where we can all be loved, tolerated, and equal, and I don't think we'll get there with angry words.

 

I didn't exactly grow up in the West. One thing I keep seeing referenced back on 'men have the right' ties back to religion. (At least in the West) That is a can of worms I don't want to open right now. But knowing how deeply entrenched a belief is, no matter how misguided and wrong, that's a tough mold to break. Maybe a better approach would be to speak with their 'language' instead of pushing for papers, videos, and books? People care less about facts and more about connecting anecdotes.

 

On 8/16/2019 at 2:44 AM, Arodash said:

Hey folks, I feel like this has devolved into arguing instead of helping the OP out, Remember we are a community and we should not argue amongst each other and accept that we have differences in opinion. How can we help the OP and her uncomfortableness with being gazed at by a male if we are arguing about, priveledge and feminism? Remember A lot of people dont like being turned into a sexual object and we should focus on that, not over generalizations, We can not help her if we are using her post to argue.

 

We can find another place to share our opinions and debate with each other but I feel like this isnt the appropriate place. Lets all take a breath and have some cake

Cake is a brilliant idea.

 

 

I thought of an idea: If someone stares, stare back, and meet them in the eyes. They'll either keep staring until you pass or look away.

 

(Where I'm from, I also smile and respond with a 'Good morning/afternoon' but...that might give the wrong impression depending on where you're from...)

[Arodash]

13 minutes ago, Feys&Florets said:

@LKinney I'm probably too late in my return, but isn't it unjust to accuse every man for being ignorant of women's plight? This can be turned around and argued that men have been reduced to sexual power-hungry beasts with easily bruised egos. I'm a feminist too but I cringe whenever I read or listen to other feminists. Sometimes I wonder if the women of the past would be rolling in their graves if they saw what feminism has become today.

 

Men don't control society - people as a whole control society. Everything we do, say, and act determines who we are as a society. If the "white man" is at the top oppressing everyone below, someone put them there. To change that, we have to empower everyone. Societies and cultures change, and change takes time. I want a future where we can all be loved, tolerated, and equal, and I don't think we'll get there with angry words.

 

I didn't exactly grow up in the West. One thing I keep seeing referenced back on 'men have the right' ties back to religion. (At least in the West) That is a can of worms I don't want to open right now. But knowing how deeply entrenched a belief is, no matter how misguided and wrong, that's a tough mold to break. Maybe a better approach would be to speak with their 'language' instead of pushing for papers, videos, and books? People care less about facts and more about connecting anecdotes.

 

Cake is a brilliant idea.

 

 

I thought of an idea: If someone stares, stare back, and meet them in the eyes. They'll either keep staring until you pass or look away.

 

(Where I'm from, I also smile and respond with a 'Good morning/afternoon' but...that might give the wrong impression depending on where you're from...)

Thank you for this post, it was very well written I whole heartedly agree with your sentiment

[Guest]

Arodash is regretting that the thread has descended into arguing, and I think that is a shame too. But this is the comment that caused the argument:

 

Why would you make this specifically about males though? This is not a male folks only thing.

 

This seems to be because the OP mentioned the 'male gaze' and said specifically that men make her feel uncomfortable, as a woman. She asked if anyone else felt this way. The thread could have been about helping the OP, and started off that way, with women sharing similar experiences, but it wasn't long before men got wind of the thread and thought - hey! This woman is saying something bad about men! All these women are just talking about themselves without even mentioning the male experience, how dare they! Better dive in there...and since then the thread has been about how women should not talk about their own experiences in case they sound accusatory. The centre of attention has moved to the male experience. 

 

LKinney is a teacher and very knowledgeable on these issues, she's shared some brilliant resources and taken a lot of time to explain what 'male gaze' means. She's passionate about the topic and I am glad she posted some information, whether or not anyone bothers to look at it. 

On ‎8‎/‎20‎/‎2019 at 12:18 AM, Feys&Florets said:

Maybe a better approach would be to speak with their 'language' instead of pushing for papers, videos, and books? People care less about facts and more about connecting anecdotes.

The problem with this approach is that the OP began with a connecting anecdote. Nobody is interested in her experience. 

 

I always end up sharing anecdotes and then feeling as if I've somehow turned myself inside out for no real benefit to anyone. But here are some anecdotes relating to the 'male gaze':

 

In the UK there is a tradition of publishing pictures of topless women in the papers, called 'Page 3'. Page 3 models can become very famous, because of the fact that their breasts are attractive to men. That's how they get onto Page 3. I'm not sure how else to exemplify the male gaze. 

 

I first heard of Page 3 aged 11, when I heard my name being discussed on the table behind me in class, and turning round heard sniggers and one of the boys saying 'Are you a Page 3 girl?' I went home and asked what a Page 3 girl was. 

 

This was the beginning of years of being pretty much terrorised about my breasts, throughout school - they were the bane of my life, but I wasn't allowed to complain because other girls would say I was being 'vain'. I got in huge trouble every PE lesson when I flat out refused to run around when the lesson was outside, being forced to wear a see through white aertex T-shirt and knowing all the jeering and sniggering that would be going on behind classroom windows.

The OP mentioned her discomfort at being sexualised because of her breasts. Maybe - just maybe - it's fair to say that this does happen to women and not men? Page 3 only ended in 2016, by the way...Can anyone seriously say men aren't taught to objectify women when 11 year olds start comparing another 11 year old to a topless model?

 

Any men like to comment on this one? Anyone feel the need to enlighten me about this..? Was I imagining my own discomfort as as child or was it POSSIBLY a real thing that blighted my life somewhat?

On ‎8‎/‎20‎/‎2019 at 12:18 AM, Feys&Florets said:

but isn't it unjust to accuse every man for being ignorant of women's plight?

I studied a Masters degree in social work and I had a lightning flash moment, when looking at the concept of privilege. 

 

Before then, I was the kind of white person that said 'oh, I don't notice race. I never think about it,' and thought this made me a good person. After this module I realised how offensive that was, because it's a classic example of white privilege: I don't think about race BECAUSE I DON'T HAVE TO. I can walk into any room and never worry that people might judge me on the basis of my skin. I'm accepted as the 'norm' while other ethnicities are...well, other...This concept changed my thinking more than anything else I learned. 

 

So, as an exercise, try thinking of all the privileges you have based on your characteristics (we all have them - ie white or middle class or male or able-bodied..) I don't have time to go into this any more. I don't think KLinney was even asking anyone to find out about women's plight. Just don't come on a thread started by a woman to talk about women's experiences and tell her she's wrong. 

 

I do agree with KLinney, AVEN isn't a very female empowering space at all, it's quite white-middle-class male in its outlook. 

 

Thank you to @daveb for being prepared to listen. 

 

 

 

[Guest]

#NotAllMen

#YesAllWomen

 

Out of interest, does the 'Asexual men' thread have problems with women continually going on there and saying 'but what about women...you're not considering the female POV'??

[Guest]

36 minutes ago, Arodash said:

I liked your last point about everyone thinking about looking at their own privledges which I think applies to everyone. And yes I disagree with people assuming the OP was "attacking men" because from what they typed thay clearly was not the case, the OP was sharing THEIR experience. I think we all can appreciate your viewpoint here but there are other points here that I respectfully disagree with. 

 

Unless its in someones bio here. You cant know if they are, white, middle class, or even male. Like my original reply to KLinney. We should not make assumptions about people. But I respect your opinion and view point

No you can’t make assumptions. Which is why I would never go on any thread to discuss an experience that I HAVE NEVER HAD and say it was wrong. Or make statements like !it’s not just a male only thing’ without looking at the facts. 

To do so would be childish and usually an example of privilege as described above.

i prefer to learn from others rather than put them down.

[Guest]

9 hours ago, Feys&Florets said:

 

I thought of an idea: If someone stares, stare back, and meet them in the eyes. They'll either keep staring until you pass or look away.

 

Or kill you...Please don’t try this one girls

[Guest]

 

 

59 minutes ago, Arodash said:

 

Unless its in someones bio here. You cant know if they are, white, middle class, or even male. Like my original reply to KLinney. We should not make assumptions about people. But I respect your opinion and view point

I appreciate you may have another perspective but I don’t know your opinion or viewpoint from this thread. If that makes sense.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Arodash said:

just because someone happens to be a male does not mean that cannot have experienced something similar to the original posters experience

I just have to take your word for this because it is a statement men often make without providing a shred of evidence or any anecdotes to back it up, whereas you have seen women feeling so upset about this that they have made themselves vulnerable in order to try to 'prove' that their experience is true. That's the attitude I'm talking about, and I am surprised to have seen it on here. And a bit sickened. I feel a bit queasy, in general, when I'm on this site.

[Guest]

On ‎8‎/‎19‎/‎2019 at 2:00 AM, daveb said:

I'm sorry some people aren't feeling welcome or safe even here.  

This is a lovely thing you said, but the 'even' is a bit much. On this site I've seen posters saying things like 'I don't want to force my partner to do anything, but I don't want to be sexually unfulfilled either' and nobody bats an eyelid. How would women feel safe in this environment?

 

I went through a phase of commenting on the Guardian newspaper online section, under every article written by a woman the comments threads were full of men jeering at women, particularly feminists, acting as gatekeepers to prevent them from ever claiming their own experiences or speaking from a female viewpoint... I had to wean myself away from it because I found myself frequently shaking with rage and sadness. I think that my time on this site is a similar interlude, which I will look back on and regret the hours I wasted.

[daveb]

2 hours ago, Sea horse said:

This is a lovely thing you said, but the 'even' is a bit much.

I'm sorry about that. What I meant was that I feel like AVEN should be better. If it's not we need to work on it. As a middle class white male I know I don't share the same experiences many other members have. I try to remember that, and take in what they say and try to not be dismissive. I also try to figure out what I can do besides just listen, and that's why I posted that little bit. I mean, if I don't say anything doesn't that look like tacit acceptance of the people who say stuff like "what about the guys?" in a thread about women? But I don't have any relevant experience, nor do I think I have anything useful to add to the subject of the thread. I certainly don't want to bring up "but not all men". So I don't know what else I can say that would be of any good.

 

I think you and the OP and a few others are making some good points, and some people would do well to listen and learn.

 

(I started to write much more, but decided it wouldn't be useful or helpful. I'm beginning to think there isn't anything I could say that would be and that's why I don't speak up in some threads.)

[Guest]

@daveb i did appreciate what you said, I was actually just angry and nitpicking, I took it the wrong way so thank you for explaining

 

@Arodash yes it does make sense, and I really appreciate that you have listened. If you are interested in the concept of privilege that I was talking about, it comes from a woman called Peggy McIntosh who wrote a book called White Privilege: Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack in the 80s. It's a white person's view of racism, as she understood that she had advantages because of being white, that she had not earned. She used a feminist concept of male privilege to think about white privilege. 

 

Bearing in mind this was written in the 80s it is still very relevant - this is an essay which we started the course with:

 

'1. I can if I wish arrange to be in the company of people of my race most of the time. 2. I can avoid spending time with people whom I was trained to mistrust and who have learned to mistrust my kind or me. 3. If I should need to move, I can be pretty sure of renting or purchasing housing in an area which I can afford and in which I would want to live. 4. I can be pretty sure that my neighbors in such a location will be neutral or pleasant to me. 5. I can go shopping alone most of the time, pretty well assured that I will not be followed or harassed. 6. I can turn on the television or open to the front page of the paper and see people of my race widely represented. 7. When I am told about our national heritage or about “civilization,” I am shown that people of my color made it what it is. 8. I can be sure that my children will be given curricular materials that testify to the existence of their race. 9. If I want to, I can be pretty sure of finding a publisher for this piece on white privilege. 10. I can be pretty sure of having my voice heard in a group in which I am the only member of my race. 11. I can be casual about whether or not to listen to another person’s voice in a group in which s/he is the only member of his/her race. 12. I can go into a music shop and count on finding the music of my race represented, into a supermarket and find the staple foods which fi  with my cultural traditions, into a hairdresser’s shop and find someone who can cut my hair. 13. Whether I use checks, credit cards or cash, I can count on my skin color not to work against the appearance of fi nancial reliability. 14. I can arrange to protect my children most of the time from people who might not like them. 15. I do not have to educate my children to be aware of systemic racism for their own daily physical protection. 16. I can be pretty sure that my children’s teachers and employers will tolerate them if they fit school and workplace norms; my chief worries about them do not concern others’ attitudes toward their race. 17. I can talk with my mouth full and not have people put this down to my color. 18. I can swear, or dress in second hand clothes, or not answer letters, without having people attribute these choices to the bad morals, the poverty or the illiteracy of my race. 19. I can speak in public to a powerful male group without putting my race on trial. 20.I can do well in a challenging situation without being called a credit to my race. 21. I am never asked to speak for all the people of my racial group.

 

White Privilege: Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack by Peggy McIntosh “I was taught to see racism only in individual acts of meanness, not in invisible systems conferring dominance on my group” DAILY EFFECTS OF WHITE PRIVILEGE I decided to try to work on myself at least by identifying some of the daily effects of white privilege in my life. I have chosen those conditions that I think in my case attach somewhat more to skin-color privilege than to class, religion, ethnic status, or geographic location, though of course all these other factors are intricately intertwined. As far as I can tell, my African American coworkers, friends, and acquaintances with whom I come into daily or frequent contact in this particular time, place and time of work cannot count on most of these conditions. '

 

That's the essay we started with and as I said this module was a lightbulb moment (similar to discovering I was asexual, but less self-centered). I saw the world in a different way afterwards. 

 

**Sorry for copying an essay from google into here, but I feel like it's so worth reading. 

*** If anyone with experience of these issues finds anything I've said offensive or wrong in any way PLEASE TELL ME and accept my apology in advance because I know I'm often wrong and I want to learn***

[Guest]

23 minutes ago, Arodash said:

I really liked this essay it was quite informitive, especially in regards to how other percieve the world around them

I feel like she was trying to look at it from a different point of view than expecting someone to explain racism to her...So a bit similar to men expecting women to explain sexism to them. It can cost a person something, to talk about things like that. Maybe not having to explain yourself is a privilege? I could go on about this for a while so will try not to! I am glad that you liked the essay 

 

[Sally]

3 hours ago, Sea horse said:

I feel like she was trying to look at it from a different point of view than expecting someone to explain racism to her...So a bit similar to men expecting women to explain sexism to them. It can cost a person something, to talk about things like that. Maybe not having to explain yourself is a privilege? I could go on about this for a while so will try not to! I am glad that you liked the essay 

 

A great essay.   I advocate for people who are homeless, and as such I'm familiar with an essay that addresses the privilege of those who are housed, compared to those who aren't housed.  It was really eye-opening for me (as I've never been homelesss), and this essay certainly was, since I'm white.  

[Guest]

16 hours ago, Arodash said:

Feel like the essay could really apply to honestly anyone who belongs to the majority class in whatever culture they live in because it points out some really good common sense privilege that definitely exists 

It makes a lot of sense doesn’t it.. It can apply to so many things.