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Depression


Traveler40

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Having zero experience dealing with depression, but am suddenly faced with someone close to me seemingly in despair, I’m at a loss.

 

Trying to help in the only way I know how, not only doesn’t work, it backfires!  Thinking on it,  that approach boils down to egoism if I disregard their desire to simply be left alone.  

 

What can anyone do to help?!?

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Only thing one can do is be there if they need. So, if they want space, give it but let them know if they need to reach out, you are just a call / message away. If they go away for a while, a message they dont need to respond much to is a good check in (so, an emoji or gif... something they can just send back a short non-answer to, like returning a hug emoji). Lets you know they are OK, lets them know you still care, doesnt push them talking. 

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Depression causes a bit of a shut down. And, often, people dont know exactly what is wrong. Just everything and nothing at once. So, trying to make them talk before they are ready... not gonna go well. Though, everyone handles it differently and what your person wants is up to them. Sometimes, being there to hug but not asking any questions works. Sometimes just hanging out and letting them pretend nothing is wrong works. Just, let them decide but make sure they know you are there and care. If things get to the point of suicidal, get them professional help, you will likely just make it worse. 

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Yes, I tried to...just tried too hard in all the wrong ways. I got slammed in return.  I’m deeply disturbed and know there’s nothing I can do. This isn’t good.  I’ll try what you suggest.  Thank you.

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Yeah watching someone you care about suffer is hard. But, as much as it doesnt seem like it, someone caring is usually appreciated. Even when they dont know what they are doing. Just... not while you are in the deepest dark mood, but you recognize it when you come out. 

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My mom is/was the go-getter type; she basically takes the Nike approach ("Just Do It") with everything.

 

This has had its advantages for her, especially so as a single parent.  But this also resulted in her being absolute shit when it came to dealing with my depression and the emotions surrounding it, and this ended up being the biggest storm that eroded away our relationship.  That's not to say that it managed to do so completely, but it happened to enough of a degree that the effects will forever be felt and our relationship will never be quite the same again.

 

I don't know where I'm going with this, really.  Not going to say that you're inevitably going to turn out like my mom or anything, but it's just more of a passive warning if you have the same sort of mentality with things as my mom, I guess, because people like her who aren't really susceptible to feelings (which isn't quite the same as saying she doesn't have feelings; she still does, she just isn't influenced by them nearly as much) and don't let themselves get bogged down by the weights of the world are just less able to understand where someone with depression is coming from.  It's like trying to describe color to a blind person or taste to someone without any tastebuds; what one person takes for granted is a whole world away from what the other person experiences.

 

Without more information, I don't have much more to suggest than what Serran did already.  Sometimes (this applies to dealing with someone dealing with grief, as well) you can't really do anything for them until they are ready to be helped, and the best thing you can do is make sure they know you are there if they ever do figure out that they need anything.  You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.  Until they are ready to be helped, any help you try to offer is most likely not going to be received properly and could just be sparking conflict.

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40 minutes ago, Philip027 said:

My mom is/was the go-getter type; she basically takes the Nike approach ("Just Do It") with everything.

Yes, this pretty much nails it. I figured I could just kind of take the reins.  I see the error of my ways, and honestly don’t fully understand.  The loss of understanding sparks a desire to “fix it”. Ironically, that approach broke it almost beyond repair at the moment.

 

I will take this advice and, as hard as it is, sit back and wait. This individual has a horrible stubborn streak and can be prideful.  We shall see.  For now, I wait.  

 

Damn, for someone like your mother/me, this is beyond tough. I’m not used to being able to do absolutely nothing.

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andreas1033

I would not say this to them.

 

"But some peoples life situations, are bad, and will always be heading downhill, and no matter what anyone can do, will not get them out of it."

 

Do not say anything like that to anyone feeling bad, or suicidal.

 

If you do want to help, the only real way out of despair, is to make them feel there life is worthwhile living. Its the only thing that gets people back from despair and depression really, and especially those whom may be suicidal.

 

A person left with nothing in life, feeling no worth inside, is on a course to a bad road.

 

Empty words like things get better, are just empty words. If you really want to help such a person, you have to show them that they have some worth, and its worthwhile for them to care about themselves, and see themselves as someone worthwhile.

 

But you op, only know who your talking about.

 

Its like a line, in a tv show i saw once.

 

They were talking about a person they destroyed, and how this person came back and wanted revenge. They were saying, that you pushed it to far, and you should always leave a person some dignity.

^^

So true, shame gov, and people do not leave those they target with such things. When you push people too far, they go over a line, of never coming back.

 

Like i often say, the childrens nursery rhyme humpty dumpty, shows you how well known breaking people is. Breaking a person, comes to a point, where its too far, and then there is no turning back, ever, like the nursery rhyme humpty dumpty. You shatter a persons mind so much, and you leave them with no dignity in themselves, you end up with a  person whom eventually is gone for ever, and will not come back.

 

One thing you can try op, if you really do care. Is if they have something good in there past, that was seen by them, as some sort of humanity towards them in life. Maybe if you get them to remember that moment of humanity showed to them, you may get them to turn back. Thats of course if that person has had any humanity shown to them, alot of people never experience any humanity from others in life, and when there life goes bad, they have nothing to cling onto, and nothing brings them back.

 

Maybe you may get an idea here op, if you really do care for that person. But only you know them, but remember, often these things are not as simple as what people may assume.

 

Like i said, if that person for instance has never seen any humanity from others in there life, they may never come back, and always will be on a road downwards.

 

This is why having some sort of humanity when young shown to a person, is so important. Just anything, they can look back on. If they do not, they will not have anything to see good in others, and if they are pushed over the edge, they will never come back, no matter how hard people try.

 

Maybe op, you may get a clue here.

 

But remember, if that person has never seen any moment of humanity from others in there life, it will be alot harder, to get them out of there bad situation. Like i said, just remember the words of humpty dumpty, although a childrens ryhme, its told to kids for a reason, as its built on truth.

 

This is why adult depression alot of times cannot be fixed.

 

This is why its important to show humanity to people when young. If they do not experience this, and there life turns bad, as it can for anyone, they will have no reference to hold onto.

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Damn, for someone like your mother/me, this is beyond tough. I’m not used to being able to do absolutely nothing.

I know, and in retrospect it probably felt exactly like that to my mom too.  In my depression and frustration, it often seemed to me that with how robotic and callous she was being about things, she didn't actually care about me and my feelings.  I realize now that she does; she was just doing (from my point of view) a really shitty job of showing it.  The problem was that showing it was not something she's used to at all.  That realization came very late (like, late-20s late) but went a long way toward helping to mend the fences.

 

I would suggest to not look at it as if you were doing nothing.  This is another thing that people like my mom have a hard time understanding, but sometimes you end up doing more than you realize by simply being there for the other person (and that they know you are there), even if that means that for the majority of your time, you aren't specifically Doing Something.

 

Personally, when I'm deeply upset or angry, I respond to it by becoming very tired and unresponsive.  I'm pretty sure this is a defense mechanism I subconsciously developed from back at an earlier point in adolescence when I said something in anger to a friend that I didn't mean to say, nor were they even the person I was angry about.  But I felt incredibly bad about it afterward, and I think this was my way of trying to never let something like that happen again.  Basically, if someone tries to get me to talk about something bad that's just recently gone on, it's not going to work.  If someone tries to force me to talk about it, there's a good chance I'll just snap at them instead, and that wouldn't help either of us.  I need some time, some space, and probably a nap because there's a good chance I'll fall asleep, before I'm in the right mental state to be able to converse about something like that.

 

Someone who's able to recognize that and simply indicates to me that they're around to talk once/if I'm ever up to it is the best way they can possibly help me, and even if I might not show it right away in my angered state, I do hear it, and I am still immensely appreciative.

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27 minutes ago, Philip027 said:

Personally, when I'm deeply upset or angry, I respond to it by becoming very tired and unresponsive. 

This is how it was yesterday. I’d never seen anything like it before. Like they were a million miles away.  If I got an answer it was monosyllabic and mainly, “no”.  It scared me.

 

29 minutes ago, Philip027 said:

Someone who's able to recognize that and simply indicates to me that they're around to talk once/if I'm ever up to it is the best way they can possibly help me, and even if I might not show it right away in my angered state, I do hear it, and I am still immensely appreciative.

I did not do this yesterday or this morning, it was all wrong.  Actually, I also took it personally for a nano-second (30 minutes).  I’ve since backpedalled and expressed exactly this and will wait until they are ready.  Quieting the fear that they may never respond is the toughest.

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@andreas1033 thanks for the input - this person has everything to live for and generally, I believe they know this regardless of their current state of despair.

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This is how it was yesterday. I’d never seen anything like it before. Like they were a million miles away.  If I got an answer it was monosyllabic and mainly, “no”.  It scared me. 

Yeah, I don't want to superimpose my experiences over the other guy's, but very often when people become very silent/monosyllabic like that (and when it's not just because they hate you and would rather not talk to you because of that, or something like that), what's going on behind the scenes is their brain trying to process their feelings, and it's so overwhelming at the time that they literally aren't able to be more communicative than that without something breaking down, whether angrily or not.  And for whatever reason, they'd like to not break down.  It could be they feel guilty about burdening the other person, sometimes it's just out of pride or saving face.

 

They might not even know or be able to tell you why they are upset, they only know that they are.  Depression doesn't always provide a reason for being though; sometimes it kinda just IS, and that's a big part of what makes it such an insidious mental disease and difficult for others to provide care for.  This was something my mom had a difficult time grasping too; to her if I was upset, there must be a reason for it.  I couldn't always communicate to her that there was, because sometimes, there just wasn't one.  I sometimes felt like I was grasping for permission to just be upset without having to have a reason why, but it was such a foreign concept to her that she wasn't able to grant such a permission.

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17 minutes ago, Philip027 said:

And for whatever reason, they'd like to not break down.  It could be they feel guilty about burdening the other person, sometimes it's just out of pride or saving face.

This makes sense to me. I am an idiot. Somehow I thought if I went all, “normal” it would help.  Eventually (this morning) they turned steely and basically told me to fuck off - forever.

 

So, that happened.  However, I don’t believe this. I think what you and Serran have said makes more sense given their current state.  I appreciate this input as someone that’s at a loss.

 

The seriousness is also very hard to gauge - how far do you let it go? (From getting anyone else involved)  From what I see, it’s a desire to sleep, inability to act/react, lack of desire to eat anything, zero desire to improve (action that may make them feel better, like a walk in the sun) or talk about anything, and just they just want darkness (literally in the house) and solitude. 

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anisotrophic

Hm. I think I'm a depressive go-getter. It's, uh... "intense". Airquotes. Not actually bipolar, but I can still count "great at resisting suicide" as a life skill. Sometimes I dissociate. (At which point it's good to suggest I nap/sleep. That's just me though.) More typically it's just like everything is in a fog, like the world is filled with cotton balls, it's hard to think or perceive things.

I think it's good to persist on an occassional "check in" without pushing. Offer to listen without forcing it, and avoid unsolicited advice? Let someone know you're still available and care.

Your actions are probably given some negative filters. A "check in" may be perceived as a pro-forma action to satisfy social obligations, or as irritated/impatient pressure. It's not malicious, but everything about the world will be interpreted within a negative framing. This means... you can try to simultaneously take responses seriously (because they are sincere) but ... with a grain of salt (thinking is clouded).

If this is new, I'm not sure how much useful advice I can provide – sounds like it's an episode, not a lifetime inclination. (Most of my knowledge is a lifetime issue, managed via self-understanding over the years.)

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22 minutes ago, Philip027 said:

difficult for others to provide care for

Yes - and I think it’s hard on all parties. 

 

22 minutes ago, Philip027 said:

I sometimes felt like I was grasping for permission to just be upset without having to have a reason why, but it was such a foreign concept to her that she wasn't able to grant such a permission.

Yes, I can put myself in their position and understand this.  My behavior/need to help didn’t allow for their feelings or even basic explanations.  Yes, I see all of this. Thank you for the clear break down. It dove tails.

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I don't know exactly what you did/said or the nature of the dynamic between you two, but I think the mere fact you're here seeking input rather than just spouting back at him "well, fine; piss off then!" and drawing out the metaphorical Line in the Sand... proves you can't be that much of an idiot.  The real idiots are the ones that refuse to learn.

 

Despite his words, there's a chance that he'll cool off and come around eventually.  He just may have hit the emotional breaking point that I described.

 

Quote

The seriousness is also very hard to gauge - how far do you let it go? (From getting anyone else involved)  From what I see, it’s a desire to sleep, inability to act/react, lack of desire to eat anything, zero desire to improve (action that may make them feel better, like a walk in the sun) or talk about anything, and just they just want darkness (literally) and solitude. 

It is difficult to know sometimes if you don't live with the person.  Basically though, unless the person actually wants to be helped, even trying to get them professional help is very likely to do jack all.  Can't make the horse drink.  As such, I'd avoid doing it unless you have indication that the person has become a danger to themselves or others.

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3 minutes ago, anisotrophic said:

If this is new, I'm not sure how much useful advice I can provide – sounds like it's an episode, not a lifetime inclination

I will just “check in” as the majority agrees on this and it seems to be both what they are asking for (to mainly be left alone) and what they need (based on what I’m hearing).  I can assure that the opposite didn’t help. At all.

 

They have indicated depression in the past,  but they “handle it well and hide it well.”  I’d never seen even a whiff of it.  Its debilitating for them and scary for me.

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anisotrophic
3 minutes ago, Traveler40 said:

They have indicated depression in the past,  but they “handle it well and hide it well.”  I’d never seen even a whiff of it.  Its debilitating for them and scary for me.

Oh, if you're able to get any tips from them on helping them with it, that's also good. When they're not telling you to F off forever. Fingers crossed that things improve.

As @Philip027 said, the fact you're seeking advice puts you way ahead of genuinely unhelpful people.

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Janus the Fox

Through experience, there's little to do but to provide openness to conversation once they are ready, provide comfort when they feel ready, if the relationship is a strong one, they'll open up.  Just listen and answer extremely carefully one one only when they ask for it, any conversation can backfire dependent n severity.  No amount of talking may not do a thing, if they need alone time, let them be and make sure they have access to some fore of support, like a phone number or anything, I'm often weary in providing outside hotlines, which could make a situation more tense with own experiences.

 

One take that I've personally experienced is that for whatever anyone says and do, my brain can totally misconstrue it's intent in a bad, negative light, often falling into themes of paranoia, delusions, hallucinations and themes of death, the macabre and self-destruction.  It wasn't a pleasant experience with a mind that over negatively thought during my serious mood swings to the dark side, especially if the previous swing was an intense euphoric state.  I'm lucky that I'm on some form of effective mood stabilizer.  I've often got this philosophy that whatever is heard seen or thought about in a negative or bizarre manner, is that often the thoughts are not real facts of matter.  It's pretty smart to think that a thought can be entertained with, but not accepted as fact either.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I have been dealing with Depression and Anxiety Disorders for over 20 yrs.....depression sucks, and associated with anxiety is like a constant tug of war and I am the rope. Medication helps, but there is no absolute cure. I call it living minute to minute and roll with the punches......this site seems to help though, being in an asexual/sexual relationship in which I'm the sexual and dealing with constant rejections didn't help the depression/anxiety very much, it sort of sent me in a spiral backwards, trying to figure out how someone that says she loves me with all her being, could reject me virtually every second.....the contradictions made me manic....after a great deal of therapy, I am much better now, no longer manic....have settled for a friend/companion relationship  with my beautiful loving still sexy to me wife......there is no intimacy, which I miss.....she still turns me on just being next to her....I in turn seek relief with the internet and masturbation.....for me at least without some sort of release, I can get very moody and extremely mean and hateful, and thats just not me......I love my wife deeply, I fantasize about her, I have wished and prayed she could be more like me, but she cannot. It's just not there for her, but I know she loves me with every part of her that's available to do so......we will be together till death do us part and beyond.....it's not easy though, especially when she is still in the closet.....she just does not want to accept herself being asexual, she still pretends to be hetero and or bi when we are with friends and or family.....although they all know now, because of me....lol 

I will end this very long comment, (I am sorry, it's much longer than I thought it would be) I LOVE my wife very much.

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Neutral Charge

What has helped me get out of long term depression and anxiety:

 

Through the Open Door: Secrets of Self-hypnosis

( has nothing to do with hypnosis and more to do with psychological structuring of your wants /needs, emotional fears and future desires and plans by using practical methods)
Hogan, Kevin, LeBay, Mary Lee

 

( we often dont consider the basic biology of eating and its importance in depression and anxiety - this helped me  feel good inside my body and understand what im doing wrong)
Anderson, Scott C, Cryan Ph.D, John F., Dinan M.D. Ph.D, Ted
 
 
those 2 books were the doorways to getting myself out of a seriously damaging depression that turned into a physical disease and  also helped me fix a shitty relationshio with an abusive man( which i was afraid to do something about cause i felt weak and lacked motivation) it helped me understand how to self motivate my own wishes and wants.
 
The next 2 books were mostly a completion for the bigger picture of life and emotions and awareness:
 
Nozick, Robert
 

it may not help everyone but i found that taking the time to invest in knowledge about how i work and how i feel and understanding the relations  between these are helping me overcome the voice inside and the emotional states i get.

I might have posted this before but it really did help me so you never know

 

side note: took me 2 years of constant mind and body work to get to where i am today and sometimes it still comes back, but the intensity is much  weaker and easier to deal with now and i can honestly say i have moments of utter and complete peace of mind and joy, something i had a hard time finding before

 
 
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23 minutes ago, TryingWife said:

How are things going with your person?

They have come through to the other side, thanks for asking.  It took about a week, but I saw steady improvement.  Interestingly, a pre-planned and paid day trip forced them out of the house and things improved thereafter.

 

In any case, they apologized, and we both learned something new about each other.  Sometimes, it’s the ones you love the most that bear the brunt.  Stepping back and waiting was the best advice, so thanks to all that shared that piece of insight.  The release of pressure to talk allowed them to seek me in their own time, but God, it was tough to wait.

 

The only thing I am left wondering about is the trigger:  What set it off?  I know what our discussions were, and I was holding them accountable to truth prior to the slide.  Something from that encounter led to the subsequent depression.  If only I could figure it out...

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I'm glad things have improved.  Sounds like they just needed some down time to process some of what was going on. I live with a couple of pretty high intensity, extroverted sorts, and there are very normal days that I want to yell " can't everyone just let me have my brain to myself for a couple days"?   It's exhausting having people always trying to drag you along at their mental and emotional pace when you really want the chance to just simmer a bit on something without having to execute some course of action or commit to a decision.  This is all 100x exacerbated if we're trying to sort through some challenging relationship issues.

 

Hopefully the time will come when they want to share what they were going through, but it's always possible it could be best for them to have processed that all themselves and just let it go entirely.  Some things can't be unsaid and the loving thing can be to keep some thoughts to yourself unless sharing them had a purpose in helping the relationship move forward.

 

 

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