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Traveler40

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16 minutes ago, Winged Whisperer said:

That was almost self-aware, but dude not having sex isn't that much comparable with doing unwanted sex you know? Having unwanted sex can be humiliating, leave you feeling embarrassed, abused and crying... not having sex is the natural state of anyone who's single.

Ok while I disagree with Tele in a lot of cases on sex dynamics within a relationship...

 

He wasnt saying not having sex is comparable with rape or abusive sex. Obviously that is worse. 

 

But not having sex with your partner, not being desired or wanted, is more than "the natural state of anyone single". It is soul crushing rejection that can leave a person depressed, feeling unloved, unattractive, unworthy of their partners affection and just all around worthless. It can utterly destroy someones self esteem and ability to be happy. Because, no matter the reasons, it does feel like rejection of you as a person. Like the one you love doesnt want you because something is wrong with you. It is worse than being dumped, because they still say they want you while you feel like they dont. 

 

Of course, I dont think "putting yourself over a partner" is a bad thing. If you sacrifice yourself and have unwanted sex its awful. So not a good idea. Best thing for both parties when there is such a huge difference is to just agree to split. Either way, one is gonna be hurt. And there is lasting damage on both sides to work through after a relationship like that ends. 

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Winged Whisperer

@Serran Tele starts with stating that asexuals are selfish, and then does a 50-50 it's-the-same-on-both-sides move. So yeah no I stand by what I said, having sex as an asexual (someone who doesn't want sex) is not comparable with not having sex. People go on multi-month/year-long trips away from their partners for various life/career/personal/legal/political/etc. reasons. Yes, not being sexually desired can and will take its emotional tolls and that's bad, but I'm not buying into this false equivalency.

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AceMissBehaving
2 hours ago, TimeDelay said:

Just an observation: I think we all have a tendency to 'hear' the comments of strangers as if the words are spoken by someone from our own lives; especially if those words trigger a negative reaction. Many of us are in this forum because we have been hurt in a relationship so being triggered is inevitable if we read enough threads. I'm guilty of knee jerk reactionary posts myself and had to have a word with myself recently when it hit me how annoyed I was feeling toward a total stranger because in my head I'd clearly decided he was 'behaving like my husband'.  I love my husband. I wish I didn't love my husband. Strong responses often come from a place of fear and pain, in real life as well as online. The thing is, all of us have as much right to our feelings as any individual who doesn't think those feelings are 'right' in a specific context.  Deciding what another person should or should not feel at any given moment is surely an attempt at the very controlling behaviour complained about.  It's challenging to leave our own baggage at the door and listen without prejudice. Strangers on the internet shouldn't be conflated with the person who caused us to hurt in real life but it happens all the time.

I completely agree, and it’s something I try and stay  cognizant of. That said, the  language in this person’s post is objectively filled with blame, and even as I try to read it on a way that filters my own bias, resentment.

 

I see the value in the actual stripped down content in regards to the individuals journey, but I do still have to take issue with the way it’s worded, at least for an asexual forum.

 

Again, I’m not negating the feelings or content, but I don’t think this is a case of being triggered into hearing someone else’s voice.

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2 minutes ago, Winged Whisperer said:

having sex as an asexual (someone who doesn't want sex) is not comparable with not having sex.

And Tele isnt talking about forced, coerced sex or rape. Or a person who is repulsed and crying during/about the sex. If you read his other posts, they are typically aimed at the partners who just claim sex is chore like or forgotten, not traumatizing. If sex is traumatizing to your partner and you accept it, you arent a very good person. 

 

I disagree with Tele a lot. But, you are generalizing a bit that all aces find sex traumatizing (they dont) and that Tele is talking about the cases that do. 

 

The who has it worse game in a mixed relationship is doomed to failure from the start. 

 

Who has it worse in a relationship where both have been sent into depression and considered suicide over the incompatibility and feeling like its hopeless ? When both know the only way to make the other happy is to be utterly miserable themselves ? Both are in pretty bad positions. And ones posters on both sides from AVEN have been in. I have PMed for hours with both aces who feel that depressed and sexuals that do. 

 

I have given sex I didnt want. For 15 years I had sex I didnt want to please people. I have been rejected by a partner I did want, when I finally felt sexual desire at 30. Both hurt in their own way. I would say they are pretty comparable, tbh. 

 

And I have been forced into sex I didnt want, in a traumatizing way. I can recognize the difference between when I gave it willingly but didnt want it (still sucks, but not traumatizing) and when it was more forced and traumatizing. Traumatizing sex is obviously worse than rejection by a partner. 

 

2 minutes ago, Winged Whisperer said:

 

 

 

People go on multi-month/year-long trips away from their partners for various life/career/personal/legal/political/etc. reasons. Yes, not being sexually desired can and will take its emotional tolls and that's bad, but I'm not buying into this false equivalency.

You do realize when people go on month / year long vacations they are still sexual with their partners, right ? Cybering, phone sex, flirtations, saying I cant wait til I see you again and can rip your clothes off for real, private pictures... its still a sexual relationship. Im away from my partner for 1-6 months at a time, due to waiting on a green card. Sexual rejection can still happen, but in general, we have lots of ways to LDR fulfill our sexual desires for each other. It isnt as if they go platonic due to distance. 

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4 hours ago, AceMissBehaving said:

I see the value in the actual stripped down content in regards to the individuals journey, but I do still have to take issue with the way it’s worded, at least for an asexual forum.

100% correct and my bad judgment.  I apologize. 

 

The key is “asexual forum”.  I was really only thinking from the viewpoint of a sexual woman in a sexless marriage, however obtuse that is given this venue and general audience. That poster’s words hold true for me generally, I identified strongly with them and can report that the damage is inescapable in that kind of long term scenario.  I don’t really “hang” at ILIASM and don’t feel the heavy atmosphere as one I’d like to participate in.  Here, it’s different if not a bit argumentative at times.

 

I spend time on AVEN as it has been so instrumental in my life for which I’m grateful. It is never a goal of mine to anger or hurt anyone, but to understand, help and especially hear other sexuals wandering in here having found this site after years or decades of confusion and hurt as I did 2 years ago.

 

There’s no escaping that my experience, my orientation and my history is that of a high libido sexual woman in union with a wonderful, yet likely asexual man.  His viewpoint and life experience is valid, and so is mine.  We do our best to try and make our relationship work in a healthy, committed and supportive way.  We married each other for a reason. Our kids are the focus and, currently, the main glue. 

 

It’s a work in progress. 

 

 

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13 minutes ago, Traveler40 said:

100% correct and my bad judgment.  I apologize. 

 

The key is “asexual forum”.  I was really only thinking from the viewpoint of a sexual woman in a sexless marriage, however obtuse that is given this Venue and general audience. That posters words hold true for me generally, I identified strongly with them and can report that the damage is inescapable in that kind of long term scenario.  I don’t really “hang” at ILIASM and don’t feel the heavy atmosphere as one I’d like to participate in.  Here, it’s different if not a bit argumentative at times.

 

i spend time on AVEN as it has been so instrumental in my life. It is never a goal of mine to anger or hurt anyone, but to understand, help and especially hear other sexuals wandering in here having found this site after years or decades of confusion and hurt as I did 2 years ago.

 

There’s no escaping that my experience, my orientation and my history is that of a high libido sexual woman in union with a wonderful, yet likely asexual man.  His viewpoint and life experience is valid, and so is mine.  We do our best to try and make our relationship work in a healthy, committed and supportive way.  We married each other for a reason. Our kids are the focus and, currently, the main glue. 

 

It’s a work in progress. 

 

 

I'd never want to deny anyone a valuable support in life, but one thing I have wondered - where do the aces go for support when their spouses are on this forum?

 

I noticed you said you 'didn't want to upset the masses' when you originally posted this, but it's not really the masses - it's a small percentage of the 1% of the population who doesn't really have anywhere else to go to talk about this stuff. I do agree everyone's viewpoint and feelings are valid, but it makes me wonder if maybe there should be a site where asexuals can have a break from the sexual viewpoint and from hearing about sexual urges...Just for a brief respite...

 

Maybe there is such a place. I might do some more googling. Or set one up. My own utopia. 

 

I genuinely wish you well and I hope I haven't upset you with this post. 

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Winged Whisperer

I didn't say all asexuals find sex traumatizing @Serran. I said all asexuals nonetheless never want sex. Sometimes having sex won't be too much of a big deal, other times it will be. Either way it's not something we ever really want to do. But as Sally said, it's our bodily autonomy and that takes precedent over someone else wanting to do something with it. I'm not repulsed and none of the sex I have had were without consent, yet I still have felt varying degrees of a negative emotion usually at the end, and despite being a man who can't cry because of toxic masculinity still have cried a couple of times in the bathroom on my own.

 

But really, this isn't about who has it worse. Every relationship is different and unique, there's no one size fits all judgement. This is about what someone can do about their relationship. An asexual can't do much, there's no point in blaming them. Even when we do have sex (you know something we're doing not for our own sake but because we want to show that we care about the sexuals' needs) we're still vilified because we're not "doing it right" or we're not doing it with desire. The goalposts shift from not having sex to feeling attraction. A sexless marriage in which the two partners are sexual has very different dynamics than when one is asexual, and "damn these selfish asexuals" is a a viewpoint I feel that's rooted in treating them the same as a sexless marriage between sexuals. It's unhealthy and unnecessary and anyone who does this should knock it off.

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11 minutes ago, Sea horse said:

where do the aces go for support when their spouses are on this forum?

Well, I’d start with other parts of this forum

perhaps. That’s where you’ll find a majority of viewpoints and experiences that align more closely with what you seek.

 

This is specifically the sexual partner sub-forum on AVEN so you’ll sometimes find a more concentrated view in this section opposite to what you’re looking for.

 

Thanks for your understanding.  

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2 hours ago, Winged Whisperer said:

That was almost self-aware, but dude not having sex isn't that much comparable with doing unwanted sex you know? Having unwanted sex can be humiliating, leave you feeling embarrassed, abused and crying... not having sex is the natural state of anyone who's single.

"Unwanted sex" covers a lot of ground from a lack of interest, to rape so the effect varies.

 

There is also a variation for lack of sex.  Often the issue is not "lack of sex" but "lack of sex with the person you love".   For people who don't feel this way, its difficult to understand, but for many its similar to, but worse than, having your partner say "I don't love you".  At the same time since you are in a long term relationship, you can't look elsewhere.  It easy to feel trapped by your own promises.  Cheated out of a vital part of life, as you watch the years go by. Forced to live celibate, or to break a solemn oath.

 

 

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17 minutes ago, uhtred said:

"Unwanted sex" covers a lot of ground from a lack of interest, to rape so the effect varies.

 

There is also a variation for lack of sex.  Often the issue is not "lack of sex" but "lack of sex with the person you love".   For people who don't feel this way, its difficult to understand, but for many its similar to, but worse than, having your partner say "I don't love you".  At the same time since you are in a long term relationship, you can't look elsewhere.  It easy to feel trapped by your own promises.  Cheated out of a vital part of life, as you watch the years go by. Forced to live celibate, or to break a solemn oath.

 

 

Yes, yes. Thank you

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anisotrophic

To echo what's already been said (sort of), but as a still-mostly-female-for-now someone whose male partner identifies as asexual...

 

This story didn't resonate with me. Realizing my partner couldn't, never wanted me in this way was gut wrenching. But when I cry, he holds me. And it helps so much, because what hurts is that instinctive sense that I'm not loved, but I am, I have intimacy and trust.

 

And that might be why it was never sexless for me. He was doing something for me because he sensed -- not explicitly, but -- he cared about my own needs and wanted me to be happy.

 

As tele & others point out, asexuality isn't the main/only cause of sexlessness. When there's also emotional distance, a loss of intimacy & feeling loved, that's awful.

 

I think it's different. I think they can both be true at once. But asexuality isn't an inability to be intimate and loving.

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22 minutes ago, anisotrophic said:

 

 

As tele & others point out, asexuality isn't the main/only cause of sexlessness. When there's also emotional distance, a loss of intimacy & feeling loved, that's awful.

 

I think it's different. I think they can both be true at once. But asexuality isn't an inability to be intimate and loving.

Quite honestly, a lot of the reasons for sexlessness dont mean not intimate and loving. Not just asexuality. 

 

Its kind of like... you know my issues with my marriage right now (aniso PMed me, I havent posted it publicly as my partner is an AVENite and seems rude). I went to a support group thing for it on reddit. The partners there were so bitter and so angry I ended up having to leave. All I got was "oh they will do this or that and its all about manipulating and blaming you..." and I am just like... no? More like I got held and told it wasnt my fault. The bitterness and anger present when the partner just isnt caring at all, or the relationship is bad overall, just isnt that helpful when it doesnt match your own situation. I ended up leaving the group saying thanks for the posts, but the negativity in this group doesnt seem conducive to actually working on my marriage. I ended up showing my wife their posts and saying I dont agree with them and I never want to feel that bitter, so Im not going down that road. I guess it helped in one way... made me thankful my partner wasnt like they describe their own. 

 

The post in the OP feels like that. That bitter resentment and anger is so obvious. I know why it has ruffled feathers. Much the same as the "support group" I went to ended up more ruffling my feathers than helping. 

 

And since this is an asexual site, such a thing will ruffle feathers even more. 

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anisotrophic
33 minutes ago, Serran said:

The bitterness and anger present when the partner just isnt caring at all, or the relationship is bad overall, just isnt that helpful when it doesnt match your own situation.

 

This is a really solid general observation.

 

I tried looking at ILIASM at one point and it was pretty upsetting stuff. Ruffled my feathers, didn't match my situation.

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3 minutes ago, anisotrophic said:

 

This is a really solid general observation.

 

I tried looking at ILIASM at one point and it was pretty upsetting stuff. Ruffled my feathers, didn't match my situation.

Made you just feel defensive of your partner rather than helping ?

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Interestingly, I don’t connect much at ILIASM either as it’s very doom and gloom and doesn’t match my situation well generally.  Likewise, I don’t think I harbor bitterness or deep seated resentment, yet identify with her post deeply.  Perhaps it’s that I went through those stages (with the exception of having a controlling partner) and came to many of the same conclusions over almost a decade and half.  It was condensed into a form I understood.

 

Perhaps, as Anisotropic states, it’s due to the intrinsic lack of intimacy.  When you have zero support, understanding, or dedication to truly form a better partnership as one partner’s needs are already met and the other is left hanging in total, you feel deserted.  You know you’re loved, but you’re never shown that in a way you need to feel whole.  It’s hurtful, and there’s not much you can do about it.

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6 hours ago, Sea horse said:

After discovering that I was asexual four days ago now, I was so excited to think I'd found somewhere safe to discuss things from the viewpoint of someone who doesn't want sex. Immediately an allosexual was correcting my understanding of situations. But I already know what an allosexual would say, I hear what they say all the time irl, I haven't come to this site for that viewpoint but for something different. So I guess I'm just really disappointed that this website is not the safe space I thought it was. 

 

You are right, I have too much baggage to be here and all of this is just very triggering. 

All  of us have "baggage", if by that you mean that we are hurting or have been hurt by some situation in our life.  Even very young AVEN members -- we are composed of people anywhere from 13 to however old our oldest member is -- come here because we need to talk with each other.  But although our TOS is designed to protect members from outright verbal abuse (more so than other sites), we are not a "safe space" in the sense that only asexuals are allowed.  One of the best things about AVEN is that we are able to hear the perspectives of all sorts of members, and that includes sexuals (and that's the term they seem to prefer).  

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anisotrophic
1 hour ago, Serran said:

Made you just feel defensive of your partner rather than helping ?

For me mainly really hard to understand when I'm feeling like "can't you just talk about it?" and weirded out by the angry language (sometimes sounding like entitlement)

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4 hours ago, Sea horse said:

I'd never want to deny anyone a valuable support in life, but one thing I have wondered - where do the aces go for support when their spouses are on this forum?

 

Not all aces feel the need to have discussions here. I had to beg my husband to read some of the threads on AVEN. He said he identified with a lot of the details on asexuality "but most people would wouldn't they?" He says he's just never going to be someone who is into "that online stuff".  I can't confide in anyone in real life so, I come here to the section for sexual partners instead. I too have considered setting up a group exclusively for 'us lot'. 

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anisotrophic
5 hours ago, Sea horse said:

I'd never want to deny anyone a valuable support in life, but one thing I have wondered - where do the aces go for support when their spouses are on this forum?

My spouse occasionally reads and at one point did make an account to ask a question. Another time he felt so strongly I handed him my keyboard and he typed for me 😂

 

I don't think the forum is ideal support for negotiating coming out as a different orientation in a marriage. (Nor uh sex changes, haha.) We both benefited greatly from talking to LGBTQIA+ therapists (different one each).

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1 hour ago, Traveler40 said:

Interestingly, I don’t connect much at ILIASM either as it’s very doom and gloom and doesn’t match my situation well generally.  Likewise, I don’t think I harbor bitterness or deep seated resentment, yet identify with her post deeply.  Perhaps it’s that I went through those stages (with the exception of having a controlling partner) and came to many of the same conclusions over almost a decade and half.  It was condensed into a form I understood.

 

Perhaps, as Anisotropic states, it’s due to the intrinsic lack of intimacy.  When you have zero support, understanding, or dedication to truly form a better partnership as one partner’s needs are already met and the other is left hanging in total, you feel deserted.  You know you’re loved, but you’re never shown that in a way you need to feel whole.  It’s hurtful, and there’s not much you can do about it.

It really depends on who is on ILIASM during any given day. There are all sorts over there and I've been glad of the change when AVEN becomes too depressing for me.  There is a forum called 'Choosing to Stay' and also I confess the 'Sexually Speaking' thread has been informative to this very inexperienced sexual wife. What I find is people vent a lot and get things off their chests that they just would not be able to say in any other company so, if that helps them, fine.  It took me nearly 30 years to get my husband to have an honest talk with me so I can't judge anyone else. I think how we have all reacted to that long post has a lot to do with perspective. If I was to read it again another time I might focus more on the resentment but the first time I saw it, what I recognised above all else was her pain and hopelessness. That is probably what is most familiar to me personally. Possibly because in my case there has to date been the zero support you describe.

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1 hour ago, TimeDelay said:

 There is a forum called 'Choosing to Stay' and also I confess the 'Sexually Speaking' thread has been informative to this very inexperienced sexual wife

Having read through only a few folders, my impression was general and by no means complete.  However, ‘Sexually Speaking’ sounds right up my alley, so will check it out, thanks! It’s likely you were the original poster that turned me onto that site by mentioning it here.

 

Separately, I had never experienced much of anything beyond....🤔....basics until I met my lover, even though I’d read about almost everything.  I still get shocked sometimes too, but consider that a good thing. Here’s to always expanding the knowledge base! 👍🏻😬😂

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9 hours ago, Sally said:

All  of us have "baggage", if by that you mean that we are hurting or have been hurt by some situation in our life.  Even very young AVEN members -- we are composed of people anywhere from 13 to however old our oldest member is -- come here because we need to talk with each other.  But although our TOS is designed to protect members from outright verbal abuse (more so than other sites), we are not a "safe space" in the sense that only asexuals are allowed.  One of the best things about AVEN is that we are able to hear the perspectives of all sorts of members, and that includes sexuals (and that's the term they seem to prefer).  

I know, I mean that's fine it's just I can hear the views of sexuals aka normal people  all the time...

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anisotrophic
54 minutes ago, Sea horse said:

I know, I mean that's fine it's just I can hear the views of sexuals aka normal people  all the time...

You don't, actually, hear from "normal" people. It's rare for sexual people to have experienced and discuss what it's like to be loved and not desired by someone they love, the confusing dissonance of never being enough even when everything is good.

 

It's rare for sexual people to introspect and recognize the emotional importance of sex.

 

Furthermore there's sexuals on AVEN that used to identify as asexual. The journeys and things they learned over the years can have lessons for others.

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On 7/26/2019 at 2:34 PM, Winged Whisperer said:

  "damn these selfish asexuals" is a a viewpoint I feel that's rooted in treating them the same as a sexless marriage between sexuals. It's unhealthy and unnecessary and anyone who does this should knock it off.

.

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6 hours ago, anisotrophic said:

..the confusing dissonance of never being enough even when everything is good.

This is precisely how it feels to be an asexual trying to satisfy a sexual partner.

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On 7/27/2019 at 4:06 AM, anisotrophic said:

You don't, actually, hear from "normal" people. It's rare for sexual people to have experienced and discuss what it's like to be loved and not desired by someone they love

.

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anisotrophic
18 minutes ago, Sea horse said:

This is precisely how it feels to be an asexual trying to satisfy a sexual partner.

Yes. The state of being in a mixed relationship is not "normal". Sexuals who have that experience aren't "normal" in that sense.

 

honestly your relationship sounded super sexist and it's alien to me. It didn't sound loving. It sounded entitled, not fundamentally respectful and caring. I wouldn't be attracted to someone that behaved like that that. "everything is good" -- nope your relationship was not good? so you weren't having the experience I describe.

 

when you say "I heard from sexuals because I heard from my toxic ex that I wasn't attracted to" I'm just hearing you map a nasty relationship with a person that wanted sex to "being sexual". It's the same conflation I feel sexual folks make when they decide their partner who doesn't want sex represents "being asexual" -- but it's their bad/toxic relationship, that's what's going on.

 

My partner and I care pretty deeply about each other and love each other and communicate really well. We've been together for a decade and a half and have kids, the sexuality stuff is hard but the most important thing is to feel loved for who we are.

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On 7/27/2019 at 10:58 AM, anisotrophic said:

Yes. The state of being in a mixed relationship is not "normal". Sexuals who have that experience aren't "normal" in that sense.

 

honestly your relationship sounded super sexist and it's alien to me. It didn't sound loving. It sounded entitled, not fundamentally respectful and caring. I wouldn't be attracted to someone that behaved like that that. "everything is good" -- nope your relationship was not good? so you weren't having the experience I describe.

 

when you say "I heard from sexuals because I heard from my toxic ex that I wasn't attracted to" I'm just hearing you map a nasty relationship with a person that wanted sex to "being sexual". It's the same conflation I feel sexual folks make when they decide their partner who doesn't want sex represents "being asexual" -- but it's their bad/toxic relationship, that's what's going on.

 

My partner and I care pretty deeply about each other and love each other and communicate really well. We've been together for a decade and a half and have kids, the sexuality stuff is hard but the most important thing is to feel loved for who we are.

.

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12 minutes ago, Sea horse said:

That is such a good point!

Also, it's so true that having sex is not always enough. In my case I never refused but the resentment from my spouse was still there - because as hard as I tried, there was something missing, I wasn't enthusiastic enough or whatever. And how could I know what I was supposed to be feeling/demonstrating when I'd never felt or experienced  it?

My exes used to complain I was "too quiet" or "looked bored". I got told to moan and pretend to be excited about it. 15 years of being told how to do it cause my natural responses didnt satisfy (though, granted, my responses were omg again.. can we not... fine lets get it over with....)

 

Though, I still dont make noise and am pretty... not super animated even now when I like it, so go figure. My current spouse likes it, cause she finds all the noises fake and annoying. :lol:

 

I think what it boils down to is actually people want what they want. And if you dont match it, they will never be happy.

 

My ex ended up with some 20 something year old instagram sex play person who goes by Bunny and likes to call him Daddy. That was never, ever going to be me. And he tried hard to make me fit his fantasy, rather than finding someone who actually did. 

 

I ended up with someone from AVEN who dislikes PiV and oral like I do and is super chill about sex in general, which allowed me to be open to desiring it for once since it wasnt pushed from the get go. 

 

People refuse to just find compatible partners, but it really is better than trying to force it. Either it works in a healthy way, or it turns toxic from forcing things that dont fit. 

 

14 minutes ago, Sea horse said:

But I heard all about this from my husband, all the time and all the way through our relationship. Maybe all asexuals who have been in a relationship with a sexual have also heard quite a lot about this.

 

But this is the only place where I've found a language to describe MY experience, which had never before been acknowledges as real or valid.

And this is the only place these sexuals can find people who get being with an asexual partner. Or hear advice from the ace perspective. They cant go anywhere else to discuss these relationships, or they get a lot of just leave, something is wrong with them, they are cheating on you etc useless advice. 

 

As was pointed out... you cant treat an ace/sexual relationship like a sexual/sexual one. Which is why sexual partners have nowhere else they can talk about their relationships other than ace spaces. It will be treated like a sexual/sexual relationship where one is rejecting the other. Which doesnt help. 

 

Also, no offense, but your ex sounds like as big a jerk as mine was. So, it isnt quite the same as sexuals talking about how to lovingly support their ace while also not sacrificing themselves. The OP post is from a sexless group for sexuals with sexuals... you see what kind of junk you find if you go off AVEN to discuss it. Most the posts on AVEN from sexuals isnt like this one. 

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