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13 hours ago, Scooter said:

There are many shelters further into the city, as well as a whole lot more violence, crime, and lower police tolerance. There's very little I qualify for to begin with, and nothing I qualify for in an area I'm willing to take my chances in. I'm not sure if there will be any more desirable options during the winter. Many of my work shifts go past midnight, so it probably won't matter anyway.

 

Because I reported having a job and my first paycheck today, my cash relief aid will go away next month, and my food stamps will decrease. I got it postponed until October, but I'll still be required to attend job training in order to keep my food stamps, unless I get something full time. When I asked the caseworker about it directly, she agreed with me that it didn't make much sense to have to risk my job taking those stupid appointments (they last half the day, so I wouldn't be able to go to work as well) in order to keep any benefits at all. There's two main reasons I can't get a full time job. One, they're rare as hen's teeth, and two, I can't physically do that right now until my back gets some serious work done on it. Rock and a hard place. 🙄

What do you think can be done to make shelters safer and better? My impression is that many homeless people are afraid to go to shelters due to violence, and in some cases disease, along with sometimes just generally terrible situations. 

 

I could imagine shelters that were very well policed, but that itself might scare people away. I can imagine some sort of auto-cleaning rooms to help with disease and dirt, but I don't know how that would work with people's belongings. 

 

Can you think of a solution that would work - including the issue of the small but non-zero number of homeless people who are actively destructive or violent. 

 

BTW - I completely agree that the enormous waste of time on dealing with social service agencies is completely non-productive because it makes it even harder to find a job. 

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On 9/11/2019 at 7:41 AM, uhtred said:

What do you think can be done to make shelters safer and better? My impression is that many homeless people are afraid to go to shelters due to violence, and in some cases disease, along with sometimes just generally terrible situations. 

 

I could imagine shelters that were very well policed, but that itself might scare people away. I can imagine some sort of auto-cleaning rooms to help with disease and dirt, but I don't know how that would work with people's belongings. 

 

Can you think of a solution that would work - including the issue of the small but non-zero number of homeless people who are actively destructive or violent. 

 

BTW - I completely agree that the enormous waste of time on dealing with social service agencies is completely non-productive because it makes it even harder to find a job. 

Every area is going to be different, in terms of what's available and the people who need help. One solution won't work everywhere.

 

But I can describe one shelter I spent a week at that blows all the others out of the water, as far as what I've experienced. It wasn't ideal, but it seemed to work very well.

 

This was a women-only shelter that accepted guests with their pets (so long as they were controlled). The only qualifications to stay or use services were that you had to be unaccompanied (no children or partner), you had to behave civilly, and you had to volunteer to help out with a chore here and there when possible. Day services included laundry, meals (hot and sack lunch), naps, and showers. You just had to sign up for a shower time, and wait your turn for one of 4 stalls (including an accessible one with railings and chair), take no more than 30 minutes, and spray it down with a cleaner when you finished. All toiletries and towels were provided, and you dropped the towels into a hamper on the way out. Laundry was similar. You signed up for a spot, soap was provided, and dryers were reserved for staff duties (sheets and towels) and day visitors. There was a clothesline outside for overnight folks. Overnight you would be given a cot, a sleeping mat to go on top of it, a pillow or two, and sheets and blankets. Everyone helped set up the room with the cots, and helped take them back up in the morning. After clearing away the sleeping gear, anyone who didn't help do a deep-clean of the main living space sat outside and chatted for an hour or so, then came back in for breakfast. Really the only limits were one shower and one laundry load per day, and the sleeping mats were reserved for day guests during the day. If you had a good enough reason for requesting something more, the staff was usually accommodating, when they could be. Nobody got charged a penny for anything.

 

Getting a bed each night was done via a lottery system--literally pulling names out of a box. If you didn't get lucky, the staff would make sure you had supplies for the night before leaving: a sack meal or two, blankets, toiletries, etc. If you were able to stay overnight for a week or longer (didn't have to be consecutive), and the staff felt you were behaved and showed initiative in trying to improve your situation, they would consider you for an interview to get into a longer-term program. I was considered for that, but left the area just before I would've done so. Longer-term guests were given huge storage boxes with locks to keep their belongings in, and could come and go as they pleased so long as it was recorded somewhere should they need to do so after regular hours. They offered job training, and frequently had outside service representatives come in for workshops and appointments. They also had a pretty sizable collection of clothing they would bring out every weekday, and allow anyone a certain number of free items per month. Sometimes the staff, or even the guests, would have a short craft/exercise/meditation group going for a short while on some days. If someone got hurt or had a medical issue, paramedics were called, and everyone rallied together to take care of that person's belongings (or in one case, their dog) until they got out of the hospital. For the most part, everyone, no matter how tired, CARED. Staff and guests. It was a community.

 

Of course, people being people, occasionally there was a little drama. But for the week I stayed there, and compared to other places, it was next to nothing. People watched pets for each other. They watched their bags. They loaned things. They spread the word about events and resources. They celebrated when something good happened. We'd watch a movie or two each evening on a huge TV before sleeping. You did have to be present at 4pm for the bed lottery, but if you became a resident, you were guaranteed a spot, and they worked with you around your job hours if you had any. Anyone that repeatedly tried to stir up shit was simply asked to leave.

 

I discussed how amazing that place was with the staff. They were proud of what they had going, and wished there were other places like it. They hadn't heard of any. I wish I could've brought the entire building with me when I left the area. If I hadn't been so concerned about others in town possibly causing me harm, I might've stayed at least long enough to get back on my feet better.

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@Scooter  do you think making chores (with each person's abilities) is a good concept at a shelter?  Especially if people get to stay once they get in (until they  decide to leave)  it might instill more of a  sense of collectiveness.  

 

Its of course a fine line between expecting "chores" and slavery, so getting the balance right is going to be difficult. 

 

BTW - do you know why shelters use cots rather than very small private rooms (like Japanese coffin hotels)? 

 

The place you describe sounds good - I wonder why that isn't duplicated. It could be that it takes people who care, and there are not enough of them?

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4 minutes ago, uhtred said:

@Scooter  do you think making chores (with each person's abilities) is a good concept at a shelter?  Especially if people get to stay once they get in (until they  decide to leave)  it might instill more of a  sense of collectiveness.  

 

Its of course a fine line between expecting "chores" and slavery, so getting the balance right is going to be difficult. 

 

BTW - do you know why shelters use cots rather than very small private rooms (like Japanese coffin hotels)? 

 

The place you describe sounds good - I wonder why that isn't duplicated. It could be that it takes people who care, and there are not enough of them?

 Generally what it takes is the political will in a geographic  area to devote funding to putting such shelters in place.  My city of Seattle still hasn't developed that political will, even though homelessness has gone up here over the last 20 years.  I and many other advocates have ranted, begged, and pleaded with our elected representatives to GET REAL, so far to little avail.  

 

Shelters use cots because they are cheaper than small private rooms -- again because of lack of more funding.  

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1 hour ago, uhtred said:

@Scooter  do you think making chores (with each person's abilities) is a good concept at a shelter?  Especially if people get to stay once they get in (until they  decide to leave)  it might instill more of a  sense of collectiveness.  

 

Its of course a fine line between expecting "chores" and slavery, so getting the balance right is going to be difficult. 

 

BTW - do you know why shelters use cots rather than very small private rooms (like Japanese coffin hotels)? 

 

The place you describe sounds good - I wonder why that isn't duplicated. It could be that it takes people who care, and there are not enough of them?

I think the chores thing, within reason, helps everyone all around. It does build a bit of that community like you say, and it takes a little pressure off the staff. They might end up operating without having to hire and pay another person, which just lets more money go into the program itself. The place I spoke about only assigned things like being a shower monitor (wielding the waiting list, watching the clock, and handing out towels), and simple cleaning duties (wiping tables, sweeping, mopping). It wasn't a big deal at all.

 

The shelter I was at had a large main room that was used for almost all activities other than showering and laundry. The cots were stacked up in the corners to make more space when we weren't sleeping, so it was multi-purpose. And yes, I do suspect it was far cheaper than private rooms. The cots were occasionally moved while stacked as well, to kind of make barriers or walls--like when they brought out the clothing, so they could give a little privacy "shopping" and make sure it wasn't just anyone running off with stuff if they hadn't signed up yet.

 

I doubt that kind of shelter would be very easy to present as far as getting funding. There were rules and expectations, but it was pretty darn fluid compared to everywhere else I've been. If you can't give exacts to people providing money, they become more reluctant to do so. Interestingly, I believe that place was somewhat church-backed, but the closest they got to pushing any sort of religion was asking to say a short prayer before dinner (which was actually very nice--it was simple, and they always mentioned having a silent moment for "our brothers and sisters and their pets who are still sleeping outside tonight").

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Here's another aspect most people don't think about: simple things for everyone else that can really set back someone without a home

 

A few nights earlier this week were very humid, but also cool. Because I had to sleep outside in that, I got a nasty respiratory infection. I went to an urgent care, and ended up with a couple of prescriptions and told to rest (ha! where??). Thankfully, Medicaid is covering the visit and the medications. A friend sent me some money to stay in an AirB&B for a few days to recover (I blew most of my own money doing so the last time I got sick, from the same conditions). Unfortunately, my illness got to the point I really felt I had to go to the ER to get checked out, so that's where I just spent half of my day today.

 

If I was housed, I would just take a few days off work, drink some extra juice, follow my prescriptions, and eat some chicken soup while binge watching something with British actors in it from the comfort of a cozy bed.

 

Instead, I have to make doubley sure I can take my prescriptions correctly, and make sure I'm able to get food to take with them if needed. I have nowhere private to rest (shared room for the AirB&B), but I also don't want to spread my germs too much out in public, and there's simply no good solution to that. There's been a heat advisory the past couple days--do I stay inside with the AC, possibly spreading my germs, or do I stay outside and sweat my butt off? Are any of my medications temperature or humidity sensitive--and will they still be effective if I can't control the conditions I have to carry them around in? What healthy food and drink choices do I have access to with my EBT and other funds? I splurged for a Lyft to and from the ER, because I didn't think I could handle taking multiple bus trips across town to do so. I missed out on at least one day of work so far due to all of this, and unfortunately had to turn down two different shifts I was offered to take. I haven't even had my job a month, so I don't know if this will label me as unreliable or something to management. I know it shouldn't, but that doesn't mean it won't. I have nothing to tell the doctors when they ask me for emergency contact information. They leave and come back with different discharge instructions when I tell them I'm homeless.

 

This is hitting me very hard, in multiple ways. It would hit a housed person as well, but not to this extent. I should be able to rest up, probably for a good week or so, because of this stupid infection (bad enough the ER even took a chest xray). But I'll be outside again come Monday, and have to go back to work Tuesday if possible. There's nothing I can do about it. Because this is the second time in several months this has happened, I have no reason to think it won't again, especially with colder months ahead. My head conjures an entirely possible scenario of getting pneumonia at some point.

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Until we get everyone housed, we need respite shelters with medical help for people who are homeless and sick.  We have one large one in Seattle, but it's downtown in a dicey area and the homeless people in my neighborhood, and other neighborhoods, don't want to go there.  It's also for very sick people who've been discharged from hospital, and what's needed is places for people like you, Scooter, who aren't terribly ill but would be if they had to stay out in the weather (hot or cold) while they have a respiratory illness.  Meanwhile, we spend a lot on our ERs, where people don't have any place where they can recover, and which cost a lot more than a respite center.  

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Just trying a theory - no offense intended.   For @scooter and others here who are or have been homeless;  are a small percentage of homeless people making things much more difficult for the rest?  For example, providing housing units is quite inexpensive - what is expensive is dealing with the potential for violence, drugs (serious addicts not casual use) etc.  Are those problems mostly limited to a small percentage of homeless people and if we could somehow find separate housing for that group, would housing the majority be easier?

 

I may be completely wrong, but I'm imagining that if free rooms, showers and food were provided, most of the homeless population would be willing to put in a little effort to keep them in reasonable shape 

 

Maybe I'm not understanding the reality 

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Uhtred--

 

I'm honestly not sure. It's kind of hard to measure that sort of thing, as far as numbers or even percentages go, because nearly everything ends up being an estimate. It's not possible to count how many are this or aren't that, partly because a lot of homeless folk don't want to be found (for one reason or another), and make sure they aren't available the few times someone does try to get around to counting.

 

But discussing with others in a similar boat to mine, I do think the violent folk are in the minority. As it's been said many times, we're more likely to be the victims of violence rather than the instigators. I think addicts are probably dependent on the area, and what is or isn't readily available. I don't know a thing about drug scenes and I honestly don't want to.

 

A lot of us are far more than willing to put in a good amount of effort when presented with the right services and amenities... we just can't always do so within the rules that are set along with them. That's half the reason many don't do shelters (the other half being around the fore-mentioned problematic people). If "free" comes with loss of freedoms--giving up pets, only keeping job hours during a shelter schedule, mandatory participation in programs that don't apply to our specific situation, having our belongings constantly in danger of theft.--then it's not really free. There are rules to keep a community intact (be polite, clean up after yourself), and then there are unreasonable rules that make getting back into society impossible (be here by 4pm and don't leave in order to get a bed). That's the reality. Almost every single shelter I've encountered has had unreasonable rules.

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First, housing is not inexpensive.  It's estimated by low-income housing providers here in Seattle that a low-income unit costs about $350,000 to build, and that's not a services-provided unit, which is even more expensive.  .In the US, the federal government got  out of the business of providing government housing -- called "social housing" in Europe -- in the 1980s, and local governments simply can't afford it (or don't prioritize it).    

 

A certain percentage of homeless people are mentally ill, but a certain percentage of housed people are mentally ill also.  The difference is that we don't see the housed people.  A very small percentage of mentally ill people can be violent, by far in the  minority.  Drug addiction is now coming rampant in all sectors of the country, and homeless people are more likely to become addicted while they are homeless than addiction causing homelessness.  It's painful being homeless, and it's hard not to accept drugs to dull that pain.  Unfortunately, medical research here in Seattle has shown that once your brain becomes accustomed to heroin (which happens very quickly), changes occur in the brain which make it almost impossible to get off the stuff.  So people who advise arresting addicts so they'll go cold turkey in jail are both ignorant and cruel.  Once you're on drugs, it's no longer a choice; it's necessary.  Medical researchers say alternative drugs are necessary to get people off the dangerous stuff.

 

After years of listening to communities in my county, I'm pretty certain that people who complain about the supposed danger of homeless people are not reacting to actual danger, but to fear of "the other".  They're also worried that they themselves may someday be in that situation, and they don't want to think about that.  So they'd just rather not see homelessness.

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Housing in major city centers is expensive, but outside not so bad.   I've sometimes thought about housing provided at the edge of the commute range to a city (where I am that drops the price tremendously). 

 

Small free housing units: Maybe just a 20'  (1/2) shipping container with heat / AC,  running water, bed, toilet, shower, desk, internet , basic computer,  and a little storage space.   (we use those at my work site as work spaces).  They have the advantage of being very easy to move and set up. Really not very expensive.

 

Every morning a bus leaves for the city center - scheduled to get there early enough to get a job. Every evening it drives back.   Not a fun commute, but no worse than some of the engineers in my group have.   (residents are not required to work, but they have the option).

 

Free simple food. Free simple clothes. Laundry , medical care. Counseling. 

 

 Enough ID (biometric?) to let someone have their own container. This does represent a loss of privacy, but maybe its OK.   Substantial surveillance so problem people can be removed. 

 

Residents are expected to put in time on chores - just keeping the place up in general. 

 

The thought is to provide a 0 cost and low effort (no endless waiting in line) way for people to  have time to get their lives in order, learn, find jobs etc.   They don't *need* to do any more than eat and sleep, but they are in a situation where they have options if they want them. 

 

I don't think its insanely expensive - other than the very difficult issue of security and dealing with the small number of destructive residents. 

 

I know it probably won't work. 

 

 

 

 

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12 minutes ago, uhtred said:

I know it probably won't work. 

 

It would work -- except for zoning laws, people complaining that it isn't real housing and therefore it's just giving still-homeless people "free stuff", lack of available land, and the fact that small communities around the country are getting more expensive all the time, because people are moving there from the more-expensive bigger cities, and funding for medical care and counseling and food.  

 

What seems simple and logical to us often means devising a whole new system.  

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8 hours ago, Sally said:

It would work -- except for zoning laws, people complaining that it isn't real housing and therefore it's just giving still-homeless people "free stuff", lack of available land, and the fact that small communities around the country are getting more expensive all the time, because people are moving there from the more-expensive bigger cities, and funding for medical care and counseling and food.  

 

What seems simple and logical to us often means devising a whole new system.  

I agree that there are lots of issues. 

 

I'm not too worried about zoning.  At least where I live, the limits of the commute range is next to some very economically depressed areas, so the extra income a facility like that would produce might be welcome.  Its not so far from us where a town was thrilled to get a maximum security prison. But at the same time some of these places are just outside of reasonable commute range.

 

(I'm surprised by how quickly the prices drop here with distance - the economics doesn't make sense to me, 

 

OTOH most cities are much more expensive than surrounding areas, so it seems that moving homeless housing outside of cities (if transit is provided) makes sense.

 

 

 

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Touchofinsight
On 7/2/2019 at 5:19 PM, Sir_The_Last said:

Where is the out cry for the homeless in USA? If you live in California you see camp after camp in big cities like LA But smaller cities also have a huge problem. No more housing is the cry... But what do you think ? 

 

In the 80s ,90s we had malls filled with customer. We had clean air ...  Now we have homeless camps ... And many other types of camps..  what happened? 

The housing prices (both apartments and homes) have increased substantially where the average wage has stagnated  or in some cases decreased. Its becoming harder and harder for people without strong skill sets to get a job that pays a wage you can live off of. Some people like my self are just not ambitious or do not have a passion towards any type of career path/plan. It's just a question of how do you pay your bills? This is especially true in CA. I moved out of CA for that reason the economic climate is awful there and is only going to get worse.

 

The other problem homelessness is there is no money to be made by trying to solve it. If there was a way for politicians to siphon off a couple million dollars each year it would see more attention then it does now. In many cases homeless people are shipped around by Local PD to the border of their town to push them into the next county. No one cares about them or questions the process because its not like homeless people (those with serious addiction problems/ or who have given up) don't cause issues on the streets. Seattle and San Fransisco especially have issues with their homeless.

 

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