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Definitions - my conclusions


Dreamsexual

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Dreamsexual
On ‎5‎/‎22‎/‎2019 at 7:42 PM, ryn2 said:

Since I have no power to change the actual definition I’m not sure I want to commit the time...

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1 minute ago, Aimeendfire said:

So we are becoming more nitpicky.

 

Hard to say.  Sometimes precision matters, and sometimes it’s just precision for precision’s sake.  Time will tell?

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Dreamsexual
On ‎5‎/‎22‎/‎2019 at 7:43 PM, ryn2 said:

it’s just precision for precision’s sake

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Just now, Dreamsexual said:

Cool.  But you were the one interested in group consensus.

I am, but consensus is only useful if it changes the official definition.  Otherwise we circle back to the tomato example... if we all agree it’s a vegetable, it’s still officially a fruit.

 

Perhaps better put, I want to know the answer.  Otherwise consensus is no more useful (and perhaps less so) than dissent,

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Aimeendfire
7 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

I thought I was in this boat, but I didn’t realize “wanting sex” includes masturbation for pleasure.  That’s the specific aspect I’m curious about.

I don’t see it as that. Masturbation is not sex...it’s masturbation. Asexuals are not incapable of feeling pleasure from masturbation and to say only true asexuals are those who masturbate just for relief is weird IMHO. 

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Dreamsexual
On ‎5‎/‎22‎/‎2019 at 7:47 PM, ryn2 said:

official definition

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Aimeendfire
1 minute ago, Dreamsexual said:

 

 

What makes something 'the answer'?  

Whatever our one true ace God David Jay claims it to be.

-is joking- 

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Dreamsexual
On ‎5‎/‎22‎/‎2019 at 7:49 PM, Aimeendfire said:

I don’t see it as that. Masturbation is not sex...it’s masturbation. Asexuals are not incapable of feeling pleasure from masturbation and to say only true asexuals are those who masturbate just for relief is weird IMHO. 

..  

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Aimeendfire
3 minutes ago, Dreamsexual said:

What kind of pleasure is generated by causing pleasurable physical sensations in the genitals or other erogenous zones, usually to orgasm (in contradistinction to pleasurable physical sensations generated by stimulus of non-erogenous zones)?

 

My gut says that's 'sexual pleasure', almost by definition.  Maybe this is where I'm going wrong.

 

And what about using sexual pornographic imagery to better generate such feelings?  I see that as sexual.  

🤷🏽‍♀️

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Dreamsexual
On ‎5‎/‎22‎/‎2019 at 7:56 PM, Aimeendfire said:

🤷🏽‍♀️

I .

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Aimeendfire
8 minutes ago, Dreamsexual said:

I can't see what that is??

Sorry it’s that shrugging emoji

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Dreamsexual
On ‎5‎/‎22‎/‎2019 at 8:05 PM, Aimeendfire said:

Sorry it’s that shrugging emoji

.

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24 minutes ago, Dreamsexual said:

What kind of pleasure is generated by causing pleasurable physical sensations in the genitals or other erogenous zones, usually to orgasm (in contradistinction to pleasurable physical sensations generated by stimulus of non-erogenous zones)?

 

My gut says that's 'sexual pleasure', almost by definition.  Maybe this is where I'm going wrong.

 

And what about using sexual pornographic imagery to better generate such feelings?  I see that as sexual.  

Would it be clearer then to say that complete asexuals (under your proposed definition) do not experience sexual pleasure?

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32 minutes ago, Dreamsexual said:

You mean the official AVEN one?  Or some other one?

 

What makes something 'the answer'?  Authority?  Popularity of us? Linguistic and philosophical rigor?  Lack of objection? 

Here on AVEN, the AVEN one.

 

I don’t know what criteria or process were used to arrive at the current definition, so I can’t speak to what would justify a revision (or confirm none is needed).

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Dreamsexual
On ‎5‎/‎22‎/‎2019 at 8:18 PM, ryn2 said:

Would it be clearer then to say that complete asexuals (under your proposed definition) do not experience sexual pleasure?

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everywhere and nowhere
1 hour ago, ryn2 said:

I’m not so much interested in you and me personally reaching agreement as I am in hearing from the rest of the group where they think the line should be drawn (and what defense they offer).

But does there have to be an agreement? Different people would draw the line in different places. For me it shows, first of all, that asexuality is indeed a spectrum. If we take nonlibidoist asexuals as an obvious zero point on this scale, there are people who diverge quite far from that... and still are (effectively) asexual because of not wanting to have sex.

So I wouldn't look for a cutoff, I would just agree that what unites asexual people is lack of an intrinsic desire for sex - and that despite this, they may have other sexual feelings. Any label, any definition is a simplification and people's actual experiences are much broader than that. We should allow expressing them instead of hoping to squeeze everything into a box.

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Aimeendfire

No everything must be squeezed into a neat little box .

Well yes everyone has different lines that they draw but what we get is people coming here for advice and then half of AVEN telling them they aren’t asexual and the other half saying they are.

So they either stick around and are confused or leave and are confused . 

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43 minutes ago, Nowhere Girl said:

But does there have to be an agreement? Different people would draw the line in different places. For me it shows, first of all, that asexuality is indeed a spectrum. If we take nonlibidoist asexuals as an obvious zero point on this scale, there are people who diverge quite far from that... and still are (effectively) asexual because of not wanting to have sex.

So I wouldn't look for a cutoff, I would just agree that what unites asexual people is lack of an intrinsic desire for sex - and that despite this, they may have other sexual feelings. Any label, any definition is a simplification and people's actual experiences are much broader than that. We should allow expressing them instead of hoping to squeeze everything into a box.

I think it would be very helpful to have agreement.  That agreement could be that asexuality encompasses a spectrum.  It could be that asexuality doesn’t encompass a spectrum, but a given fixed set.

 

Without agreement, you have different people giving new arrivals conflicting information (each confidently stating their position as THE position), people invalidating one another over differences they didn’t know (hadn’t read the “right” or applicable threads to know) exist, and people discrediting others’ opinions when those opinions are just restatements from the sources above.

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51 minutes ago, Nowhere Girl said:

I would just agree that what unites asexual people is lack of an intrinsic desire for sex

Just calling this out separately as it’s a good illustration of what I mean.  Right now we (not you and me; the body of regular posters) don’t all share this agreement.

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Dreamsexual
On ‎5‎/‎22‎/‎2019 at 9:15 PM, Aimeendfire said:

So they either stick around and are confused or leave and are confused . 

.

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7 minutes ago, Dreamsexual said:

This seems a behaviour problem not a consensus definition problem.

A lot of new folks arrive asking some flavor of “could I/my partner be ace?”  Depending on who answers, they each get different - sometimes just a little different, sometimes conflicting - answers.

 

From a behavioral standpoint, that could be addressed by asking people to direct new folks only to the official definition, referring all disagreement back to the official definition, etc... or by asking people to answer all questions of that nature with some form of “I’m sorry, I can’t begin to speculate.”

 

The former works if people agree  with - or at least agree to support - the official definition.  The latter will disappoint a lot of people hoping for information.

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Dreamsexual
On ‎5‎/‎22‎/‎2019 at 10:09 PM, ryn2 said:

A lot of new folks arrive asking some flavor of “could I/my partner be ace?”  Depending on who answers, they each get different - sometimes just a little different, sometimes conflicting - answers.

.

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4 minutes ago, Dreamsexual said:

Sounds too draconian.  Can't see people really being all that willing to do that, tbh.

Well, that was my point... while it may be in part a behavior issue, there isn’t a behavior-modifying way to fix it.

 

4 minutes ago, Dreamsexual said:

I'm not sure you can find the solution you're looking for without making things worse rather than better.

I’m not sure either.  I just find it very frustrating, and see others frustrated by it as well (which leaves me wanting to help them).

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Dreamsexual
On ‎5‎/‎22‎/‎2019 at 10:20 PM, ryn2 said:

there isn’t a behavior-modifying way to fix it.

.

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31 minutes ago, Dreamsexual said:

Only individuals choosing to be more careful,

They first have to know there’s a “more careful” to be.  I think most are genuinely trying to help and thinking they are conveying accurate info.

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Dreamsexual
On ‎5‎/‎22‎/‎2019 at 10:56 PM, ryn2 said:

They first have to know there’s a “more careful” to be.  I think most are genuinely trying to help and thinking they are conveying accurate info.

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36 minutes ago, Dreamsexual said:

My frustration led me to find my own set of labels and definitions for myself.

I’m not frustrated with the labels.  I’m frustrated by the divergent usage with no source of truth (or “truth”).  Creating my own label or definition only worsens that.

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Re newbies (or even oldies) coming onto AVEN and getting multitudinal explanations of what they are -- within the ToS, AVEN says we're not  supposed to tell people what they are.  I notice that that is much more commonlately, and the mods aren't catching it.  

 

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I do also see people carefully giving the disclaimer and then providing differing information.

 

As above I don’t get the sense people are willfully misleading anyone.

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Dreamsexual
On ‎5‎/‎22‎/‎2019 at 11:18 PM, ryn2 said:

I’m not frustrated with the labels.  I’m frustrated by the divergent usage with no source of truth (or “truth”).  Creating my own label or definition only worsens that.

..

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