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Sexual experimentation - is charity sex better than celibacy?


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Sorry things have been tough, @anisotrophic.  It's painful (and very familiar) to read.

 

Just some random thoughts that came up:

 

1.) I've discovered through my schoolwork that extrinsic motivation usually actively works against true change (though it can produce superficial change).  Autonomy is HUGE - a much bigger factor than I anticipated.  Extrinsic motivation reduces someone's feelings of autonomy, which clouds their intrinsic motivation.  Strangely enough, when people feel that no one is pressuring them to change, they may find their own inner motivation to do so (assuming the REASONS to change are still there).  It sounds kinda like that may have happened for him.  It's actually fantastic that he wants to go to therapy for his own reasons - it's WAY more likely to succeed that way.  Coincidentally, this informs my recent philosophy on discussing boundaries.  Negative consequences can produce motivation, but only when they're not perceived as punishment.  Like an ultimatum without the intent to force change, just a statement of consequences, stated in a way that doesn't make it a threat.

 

2.) I'm not fully there yet, but I'm the most happy and hopeful about my relationship with my mom when I focus on the ways she does express her love, and less on the ways I want that she can't give me.  She can't give me understanding and validation when I'm frustrated or unhappy, she won't respond when I'm in pain, she will tune me out when she's not interested in what I'm saying.  But she likes providing for me - making me a sandwich for lunch, buying me clothes, sweeping my bathroom.  She likes seeing me happy, she likes watching TV with me.  I have no doubt she would lay down her life for me - but she won't lay out her heart.  I'm trying to focus on the former, and get the latter from others who can provide it.  Child-like love is love I want to cherish having, but it won't fulfill all my love needs.

 

3.) He said he started trying to consciously care more, then gave up.  That was eerily familiar to me.  I had a conversation with my mom where we both basically agreed to work on things that were difficult for us.  I tried to fight my avoidant tendencies when we got in an argument.  When I just wanted to leave and stew, I forced myself to stay and apologize for my part in the argument, to try to work things out.  I didn't do it well - I was still very angry and snappy, but it was different from what I'd normally do.  She'd ignore me, and not apologize in return.  I gave up on even trying.  What was the worth in doing something difficult if the outcome was the same?  I wonder if that may have been what happened here - he tried, felt it was making no appreciable difference, and gave up.  Changing one's ingrained habits is hard, and without reinforcement of tiny efforts, very likely to fail.  The hard part is the tiny efforts usually aren't even noticeable.  We don't reward when we don't even notice they're trying.  Even if we do, it's hard to reward something which is SO FAR from what we want.  When I finally discussed this with my mom, she said something similar: that she had been doing some difficult self-reflection, but since I wasn't noticing any outward change, I thought she wasn't even trying.  No easy fix for this one, unfortunately.  Even asking if one has been trying to change is perceived as pressure.  Which is why it's usually better received from an impartial third-party like a therapist.  The one who wants change can't be the one checking up on if there is.

 

I'm trying to be compassionate of myself and all the ways I fall short of helping her change.  My emotions are too busy screaming that I'm not getting my needs met to do everything I can to help her change.  And then that reminds me to refocus on getting my needs met in a more healthy way.  What the heck am I doing trying to help her when I won't help myself?  Unfortunately COVID is making expanding my social supports so much harder right now.

 

Standard disclaimer: my thoughts, not a judgement on yours.  I'm afraid my priority is still working through my own thoughts, with the hope that eventually I'll have more available energy to be there for yours.  I am thinking of you and sending warm thoughts your way.

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@Memento1 yeah, intrinsic motivation is so hard to coax out of anyone.

I've been working hard with our oldest, trying to boost self esteem, emphasize personal responsibility, express a belief in capacity to change... applying optimism, suggestions, disappointment, anger, forgiveness, reassurance... setting up situations that produce positive reinforcing experiences – constantly spinning the dials based on where the kid is at any given moment. It's exhausting, it's working, it's slow, it's thankless labor, but it's my responsibility to move the child from a problematic personality pattern to being a flourishing person. But… that's for a kid. I'm supposed to do this.

 

Agreed that it's great that he wants it spontaneously, not me telling him to go. (The "bad" take – that it wasn't motivated by our relationship struggles – is disappointment that he's not intrinsically motivated to be better for me, but… I need to take what I can get.) I should just… not ask about it. Report on my own therapy, as a reminder that "therapy exists".
 

3 hours ago, Memento1 said:

He said he started trying to consciously care more, then gave up.

What actually happened sounds like a misunderstanding. When he said he stopped scheduling it, I thought it meant he'd given up. What actually happened is that the scheduled time felt redundant because he was already doing it. That said, he was trusting that to continue and not just be a local deviation from norm – I think that's overly optimistic – it's possible he scheduled it again but I don't think I should ask.

Still, even when effort is made, sometimes the thoughtlessness of the result is mind-boggling. I've had to get up before him routinely – typically 1-2 hours – for kids, and was bringing him caffeine to encourage him to get out of bed – hours out of my day, every day. Crashing in the evening as soon as kids were in bed, while he stayed up late doing whatever he'd like. I said it was unfair to treat my time as less valuable than his, and that he had me bringing him caffeine to his bedside just to coax him to be up and less grumpy was borderline humiliating. (Note that he believes he has a peer marriage.) He resolved to set a morning alarm. I didn't press the issue. This weekend (months later) I discovered he only set it for M-F (I'd been watching kids for over 3 hours) – and I just stared in disbelief – why would weekends be different?

Sorry, that's just a bit of venting… I don't tell friends such things because I'm ashamed I've somehow ended up in a marriage dynamic that treats me this way.

 

3 hours ago, Memento1 said:

Child-like love is love I want to cherish having, but it won't fulfill all my love needs.

That's exactly how I've felt about it. And that I need this, and I'm in trouble without it.

A close friendship might be a solution, but I've always been terrible about making friends – it might be my only option, though – but it's now much harder to form friendships when so burdened, I don't see my parents as a source of emotional support (and that childhood experience might have led me into the relationship pattern in the first place), and I worry about doing anything like emotional incest. But TBH interactions like this on AVEN helps a lot!

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On 9/11/2020 at 6:24 PM, anisotrophic said:

What actually happened sounds like a misunderstanding.

Thanks for correcting my false assumption.  You're right, I did read that wrong.  That's the trouble with online communications, they're very easy to misunderstand.

 

So to make sure I'm understanding you right, it sounds like you felt overworked and very unsupported in the mornings.  You were bringing him caffeine as a subtle signal that you wanted him up and helping, but the message wasn't getting through. When you brought it up, he took some corrective action, but it wasn't explicitly discussed, so you each had different ideas of what that action would be.  Neither of you followed up on how that was going or whether it was resolving the issue until the misunderstanding became obvious last weekend.  You're stupefied and disheartened that he wasn't on the same page as you all along.  That's the way I read it, but please correct me if I'm wrong.

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1 hour ago, Memento1 said:

You were bringing him caffeine as a subtle signal that you wanted him up and helping, but the message wasn't getting through. When you brought it up, he took some corrective action, but it wasn't explicitly discussed, so you each had different ideas of what that action would be.

It wasn’t subtle, I many times pointed out that this was unfair and not respectful treatment of my time as equally valuable to his own, his responsibility to get up and start helping himself. He claimed he woke up early sometimes too (maybe once a week & I’d get up soon after), not admitting the imbalance. It came to a head when I wrote down my waking time going back a couple months (since I have a tracker) and made it clear how much earlier I was routinely waking.

 

It really sucked at the height of summer when the youngest would routinely wake at sunrise.

 

1 hour ago, Memento1 said:

he took some corrective action, but it wasn't explicitly discussed, so you each had different ideas of what that action would be

He told me he was setting a daily alarm, told me the time. I didn’t think to ask whether it was only for M-F — honestly it’s astonishing that someone would think that makes sense, and I shouldn’t need to expect I need to make that level of explicitness for a fully functioning adult with no history of mental issues & that’s been earning a solid income doing professional things with nary a complaint from colleagues or bosses.

 

I think he’s been ignoring the alarm most of the time but don’t see any point in calling him out over it again, he’ll just get self-pitying or defensive. I’m just astonished by this “M-F” thing, and yet... not. Of course he did something like that. Profound level of thoughtlessness no matter how clear I am. He wasn’t very sorry about what that communicated (ie how impossible it seems for me to get respectful treatment), he was just a bit embarrassed about how clearly stupid the M-F thing was.

 

—-

 

He now thinks he’s depressed. Interested in professional help (he says). I don’t feel angry anymore, I’ll give up, just help him feel better. I don’t think he’ll start loving or respecting me; I think his failures to live up to his stated ideals have destroyed his self esteem & the only way he’ll feel good about himself is for me to stop wanting & asking for the things he won’t actually do. Every time I did that over the years, he withdrew and got depressed.

 

Anyway I saw my therapist again today and I think that’ll help me get through all this.

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PS to add, I think the two drivers of any sexual desires I’ve had in the past year or two were “wanting to feel loved” and “anger” (I was careful to be honest with him about these). Those feel gone now; and I already erased any capacity to imagine someone desiring me. I just don’t care about sex right now. 🤷

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Alright, thanks for the clarification.  So you brought it up several times, and it didn't get a response until you provided data showing an imbalance.  You thought you were explicit in your discussion, and you're stunned that he requires more than that.  You were angry about all of this but now you're numb.  Closer?

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5 hours ago, Memento1 said:

You thought you were explicit in your discussion, and you're stunned that he requires more than that.  You were angry about all of this but now you're numb.  Closer?

Yeah. Well, I don’t think anyone with more-than-adequate reasoning capabilities should require to be told “your spouse’s time matters” is not a weekday-only rule, and he immediately understood the mistake when I stared at him, when I found out he’d done that. He just didn’t think about it... at all, I guess.

 

It’s just a vignette, a tiny episode. There have been many. That one happened to be recent.

 

Therapist asked if “numb”? Maybe? No more anger or pain. It’s a new change, maybe something snapped, I think I need more time to see what it feels like.

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So you confronting him with your unhappiness doesn't get desired results, which is extremely discouraging.  I've been in similar situations - it sucks.  You don't see a way of asking for things that won't result in him withdrawing and depressing.  You don't want him to withdraw and depress, so your strategy now is to stop wanting and asking for things.  I've done that as well.  It didn't work out for me, but your situation is different.  It sounds like you don't think this will improve things for you, but you don't see an alternative.  Is that anywhere close?  I'm curious how similar your experiences are to mine.

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Yeah. Nailed it. Complain and get depression. Ease up and get selfish behaviors. He scheduled a therapist so idk, maybe the therapist calls out his bs, last one didn’t push back enough imho. 🤷

 

I think you’re right, backing off doesn’t work either. It’s catch 22. I’m just not angry or hurting about it anymore. I guess my “alternative” is my own therapist, and we might try joint therapy if we weren’t so F’ing swamped with kids home all the time remote schooling.

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Yeah, that's tough, and very similar to where I've been.  If you think it might help, I'd be curious to examine how you've approached problem-solving discussions with him, and if there's alternate ways that won't end in him withdrawing, but that is very much up to you.  I know often I just don't have the energy or self-esteem for those kinds of things, especially when I've been beating my head against the problem for years with no luck.

 

And of course, I'm sure you're well aware this is partly me testing my counseling skills, and it's probably safer to trust the licensed therapist you already have. *LOL*  Still, thought I'd offer. 🤗

 

P.S. OMG, remote schooling!  I forgot that's starting all over now.  Good luck with that.

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  • 2 months later...

@Traveler40 I think it’s getting a lot better. I want to update, but need time to sit down and summarize. There also might be aspects I’m more comfortable sharing via DM. :)

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Oops, this thread is a lot older than I thought, but I'm through it now. Sorry for the "like" notifications on over a year old posts. :<

 

Hm, a lot of what I wanted to say is probably not relevant anymore, but one thing still might be. Based only on the information you shared, I believe your husband is a very sweet person. It's sad, but there are certain types of manipulative and selfish behavior that are so engrained in our society and culture, that him just not engaging in that kind of harmful behavior makes him stand out. It's not a good situation, because your own unfulfilled desires make it difficult to take control of the situation. Removing yourself from the situation to find the time and peace to sort out your feelings is also very difficult for the reasons you described.

 

Okay, the following is just speculation. But you rightly said that you are both adults. My impression is that it would be best for both of you to become independent of each other. That is, move toward splitting up, and learn to live without each other. Once you have reached a state of not needing someone in your life to make you feel desired, it will become possible to make a rational choice about being with him that you can truly be comfortable with. Likewise, for him, once he has managed being able to live on his own and take care of himself, it will be easier to figure out what he appreciates about you as a person.

 

Again, that's just speculation. Only you have the full information to know which course of action is beneficial. I only wish to voice a perspective that you might not yet have considered.

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On 4/21/2019 at 6:17 PM, anisotrophic said:

I'm currently unsure whether I'm better off (a) pursuing charity sex or (b) chilling out with celibacy.

 

whats charity sex

?

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I think I've become much happier.

Some things change slowly. A terrible spiral argument pattern persists, but more and more rarely. He slowly gets better at empathy, I slowly get better at patience. It takes time to change behavior, with two people leaning into old bad patterns when they expect the other will do the same. It got worse when I moved back to the main bed; back again to my own as the "default" helps – there's too much emotional pressure in making myself sleep next to him when I'm feeling hurt. (Or anticipating having to do so, later.)

A *lot* of stress was removed when the oldest was diagnosed and medicated for ADHD. It was a transformation. I had invested lots of time earlier (see above) building the *desire* to do well with school – and when school hit, it hit hard – and I knew then that it really *wasn't* a lack of motivation. I saw the pediatrician, who was firm on the diagnosis and I swear, methylphenidate was like a missing vitamin. From hating school to loving it. Playing with all the toys and creative things I'd bought in the past and had gathered dust. Likes to learn, listen, build, creative. It's just... amazing.

Another turning point was my husband finding himself excelling at his work – he's been doing amazing stuff, discovering a unique capability. It can be intense at times, because there are crises, and he's all the more unavailable. But it made me giving up, taking on the domestic role – all feel like the right decision to have made: it's for a good cause, and I'm seeing him flourish. And choosing to feel pride rather than feel overshadowed by it.

 

I've found an hour each day for my own work, but have been going unpaid. Giving up, acceptance, and knowing I'll return to it when this all moves on.

Sex life has also gotten (much) better with an acceptance or "moving on" from a model of "asexuality" to seeing him as very much like the a "responsive desire" extreme – the sort that's stereotypically more common in women – very unaware his responses and desires, completely unthinking about sex, uninterested, not aroused by the subject or porn or flirting ... and only interested and says "yes" after physiological arousal via physical stimulation, at which point sex becomes pleasurable and wanted. At which point he likes it but doesn't want to lead (doesn't want to have to know what to do). I learn to observe what gets a response, I know that a "no" can often turn into a "yes", and mainly seek his confirmation that it feels good.

T probably makes this all a smoother dynamic, where I'm the dude (although my body is still fairly female). I spent a lot of time worrying and feeling miserable about consent or being abusive or sexual pressure, PCD every time, anxious and worrying about overstepping. I think I got too wound up about it. He's saying "yes", says he's happy with it. I think he's just terrible at self-awareness such that he will consciously "want" something he does enjoy – matching a general issue with unawareness about his own emotional state.

(Another reason to stick to my own bed in general is to make sure I'm more deliberate about hitting on him. I can always visit his. Sometimes I have to remove a child, but another bonus of T is it's easier to carry them back to their own beds. ;) )
 

On 11/29/2020 at 3:35 PM, Telecaster68 said:

Sex 'given' out of pity, rather than desired for mutual enjoyment.

The crazy thing is, he's generally "giving" it out of a sense of duty or chore or routine, but then once it starts is clearly experiencing pleasure and is happy we're routinely having sex.

Why do the dots not connect for some people?? I have no idea, but I think I should stop feeling anxious or upset by it.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Last night he said he prefers when I’m aggressive. I said, wait — prefer? not “no preference, it’s ok if I want to do that”? He mused, maybe his sexuality has shifted a little. (Or maybe he was terminally unaware.)

 

So maybe testosterone did help... indirectly.

 

I think we still need joint therapy on the *not* sex issues and it’s just hard until pandemic “ends” (at least to the extent that vaccines are widespread & schools reopen).

 

One wonders if things work better for him with a guy. On my end I’m more worried about “doing a good job” than “being desired”. “Sounds like a guy,” he says.

 

I’m still unsure I want to be on T indefinitely. But I wonder if... the longer I’m on it, the less appealing return seems to be.

 

This wasn’t the normal way to solve sexual dynamics with a partner, was it. 🙃 I’ll *try* to refrain from telling everyone to go get a sex change to solve their problems.

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On 11/29/2020 at 9:05 AM, Tarfeather said:

That is, move toward splitting up, and learn to live without each other.

I neglected to follow up and say... this is just not practical, given the kids.

 

Maybe you missed that; the domestic labor issue is all in the context of a house with young children. Who are all home all the time now. We’re very sick of each other.

 

Having my own room has helped quite a bit though.

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On 12/20/2020 at 12:14 PM, anisotrophic said:

We’re very sick of each other.

But not with COVID and some great aggressive sex sprinkled on top? I’d call some of that a win...🙃

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Obviously I'm only reading this, not seeing it IRL, but I was already screaming depression before you mentioned it. Its not just not wanting to get up and face the world, its that doing anything takes so much energy, even more so if trying to appear normal while doing it.

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 12/20/2020 at 9:14 PM, anisotrophic said:

I neglected to follow up and say... this is just not practical, given the kids.

 

Maybe you missed that; the domestic labor issue is all in the context of a house with young children. Who are all home all the time now. We’re very sick of each other.

 

Having my own room has helped quite a bit though.

Yes, I suspected as much, but I still wanted to bring up the idea. I don't think you explicitly mentioned it, just hinted at it. Personally I'm very happy my mother broke up with my father and raised me by herself, even though we were living in poverty for much of my youth, as my father was abusive and it would have absolutely ruined my mental health. Your sitution is different, and you know best, but from the info you had given in this thread it was not obvious to me. Sorry if the suggestion was inapropriate.

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anisotrophic

@Tarfeather I’ve scheduled joint therapy, so we’ll be starting that. It should’ve happened before now, but people always say that. I think context has improved enough, despite the pandemic, that we can manage it.

 

There’s various reasons it might help, even when both partners claim they want to make things work. One issue that’ll help for us, I hope, is that a third party helps with accountability. Whatever the issues are, depression or alexithymia or cetera (or behaviors of mine he wants to request changes), something needs to be done to address them. (I’m willing to change my own behaviors to help improve things, but not without trusting he’ll be trying to change behaviors too. I’m no longer capable of trusting that without a third party.)

 

edit to add: and he finally took my request seriously to find a therapist for himself, a good match not a rando, and searched hard for one that seemed like a good match, a found a promising one (eg interpersonal communication, ASD, trans, couples) in a practice that’s lgbtq+ savvy. This really helps me feel more optimistic.

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  • 2 months later...
anisotrophic

So... it’s been a couple months since I updated. As I sit through what I hope is a final week of minding remote school, I thought I should update.

 

On 1/8/2021 at 11:31 AM, anisotrophic said:

found a promising one (eg interpersonal communication, ASD, trans, couples) in a practice that’s lgbtq+ savvy

... and was, of course, booked — that entire practice was. The pandemic has increased demand for therapy. But he got someone, and we’ve been doing that joint therapy.

 

Stuff got better, it wasn’t immediate. His emotions seemed to come back, there was an incident where he said it all came flooding in — and/or maybe he became better at paying attention to them, since.

 

I’ve worked to face my own issues with emotional dysregulation, learning about DBT more. I share some stuff with him because part of it is recognizing that my strong emotional responses aren’t something I can change — I can work on managing them, and reducing the chances they happen (“vulnerability” to events). Another important part is that dysregulation can develop in response to emotionally invalidating environments, so validation is a core aspect of DBT (eg therapy explicitly includes validation by the therapist; it doesn’t mean someone is “right” but eg to find the kernel truth in their experience).

 

Eventually he expressed remorse, which I said I needed to move forward and feel better. (In particular it helped to hear him do so during joint therapy.) I needed to do other things — acceptance — but acceptance of an absence of remorse was undoable for me.

 

He’s still under a lot of stress with work (unpredictable urgent situations that can start any time and last from days to a week and more), but I think we’re supporting each other now. It can get hard on me when stress extends for more than a week, but much of that is from my own loss of identity this past year, accepting that and enduring, the impact on my self esteem.

 

He’s been supportive of me trying to find someone to date. As things got better, I became more unhappy (again?) with (my fears about) pressuring him into sex — even if he finds it positive — I think it would be a great relief to me to have some other outlet, reducing any pressure on him & hopefully, if/when we do have sex, it’s more likely to be what he wants and not beyond that.

 

So I explored a couple dating apps that are said to be trans & ENM friendly — Feeld and okcupid. It was very distracting! I’m left wondering what I want, really. With T my own sexuality has changed: more aggressive, more wanting to do a good job (with someone that enjoys receiving desire) than be desired (in some ways this works better with my husband, but he’s not excited by “being desired” either). I’ve started being attracted to women — I’ve never even kissed a woman — a teenage boy has invaded my head and the middle aged woman in me is telling him to slow down.

 

Feeld is more casual sex, hookup and threesome. Okc is more polyamory, friends first. I haven’t had serious leads/conversations. On Feeld I get a lot of “heteroflexible” guys... 🤷 anyway it got me thinking a lot about “what do I want”.

 

With school reopening, I want to get back to my work and get the home situation improved. so I’m going to try my best not to open those apps for a while — weeks or a couple months — to focus on those. It’s super distracting to be exploring dating and sex this explicitly.

 

In the meantime I can talk with my therapist about what I want to be aiming for with ENM. At the moment, I think I’m hoping for a couple or someone partnered because I can’t spend much time with them nor be their primary. Threesomes with a couple I like, plus one-on-one with one or both, sounds wonderful.

 

This came up in joint therapy because he gave me a look “I think we’re supposed to talk about this” — but it was kind of a non-issue. is that weird? I’m transitioning and looking at ENM, but our core issues were so “normal”.

 

He’s been super kind about me looking at dating & seemed a bit disappointed that I wanted to pause (needless to say, not in a “has a cuck kink” way 😂), but agreed that sorting the rest of life out first is a better priority right now.

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All good stuff. It’s amazing how time, perspective and a bit of empathy can alter an existence. You’re miles ahead of where you were last summer/fall.

 

3 hours ago, anisotrophic said:

therapy explicitly includes validation by the therapist; it doesn’t mean someone is “right” but eg to find the kernel truth in their experience

Loved this and felt we should find a therapist STAT! Haha

 

Anyhow, your need for validation is a common necessity.  DBT is an interesting approach having read up on it just now. So much easier said than done, but you sound more committed to happiness in the union  - both of you do - than in prior posts. Great news.

 

3 hours ago, anisotrophic said:

At the moment, I think I’m hoping for a couple or someone partnered because I can’t spend much time with them nor be their primary

The only thing that crossed my mind was stay open minded. A joke in our relationship (lover) is about my well thought out wish list during selection versus who he is. Yeah, the result was the exact opposite of my self styled list.  
 

So, the advice I have is to stay true to who you are and hyper focus on meeting those needs. Beyond that, take your time which sounds like you’re doing anyhow. It’s never clear cut and much of it is beyond your control. 

Lastly, you said something in another thread that has stuck with me. Something about your concern with ENM and how it might negatively affect your current relationships or life. It absolutely will in both positive and negative ways.

 

I still contemplate our outcomes as they have been major shifts. Good? Bad? Hard to say, but it *is* part of the deal. So if not going for random sex, be sure.

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anisotrophic
2 hours ago, Traveler40 said:

The only thing that crossed my mind was stay open minded. A joke in our relationship (lover) is about my well thought out wish list during selection versus who he is. Yeah, the result was the exact opposite of my self styled list.  

sounds like what I'd caution people seeking out primary partners :)

 

2 hours ago, Traveler40 said:

Something about your concern with ENM and how it might negatively affect your current relationships or life. It absolutely will in both positive and negative ways.

I suspect my therapist will emphasize retaining focus on "what do I want to get out of it" (and am I meeting those goals) rather than "what do I want". I think it's probably two things. One is to reduce discomfort on the issue with the "people I am already attracted to, and care about me, but aren't a solution" (two now, good job me!). The second is what they probably want for me -- for sex to be a positive thing in my life, not a topic where I feel sad / guilty / inadequate / etc.

I'd like sex to be ... fun again. I'd like to be able to flirt with someone and have them enjoy that. I'd like to anticipate doing things that the other person actually *enjoys* and *wants*. I'd like the affirmation in that.


And I can speculate what might get me there, but I might be terrible at predicting exactly what that is. :)

 

2 hours ago, Traveler40 said:

Loved this and felt we should find a therapist STAT! Haha

I should say, DBT was designed for individual therapy. I think joint therapy can have DBT elements but yeah. As an individual, I have characteristics DBT would describe as rendering me vulnerable to emotional dysregulation -- high baseline negative affectivity, sensitivity to emotional stimuli, intense response to emotional stimuli, slow return to emotional baseline once emotional arousal has occurred. That is... a negative emotional state can be triggered by something that seems minor, it can hit like a ton of bricks, and it can be very hard to return to normal and "feel better". These are things I *can't* expect to solve.

DBT teaches emotional regulation strategies. Dysregulation... in particular a tendency for escalating behavior, is thought to often be (mis)learned via "invalidating" childhood & life experience -- express negative emotion, don't receive validation, escalate and express harder. I have to unlearn the dysfunctional responses -- and he can support it via engaging in validation "earlier" when I'm engaging in more appropriate responses (ie providing positive feedback to help me learn). *Before* I give up and have a meltdown (resulting in becoming nonfunctional, potentially suicidal, impulses for self harm). Developing an emotional environment that will support learning emotional regulation is part of therapy, which also teaches interpersonal skills to this end.

I skipped ahead and bought the therapist manual and worksheets... which only helped my therapist ("go read this worksheet").

Much as I needed to hear remorse, recognizing my own issues and identifying what I could and couldn't do about it was probably also very important. His tendencies combined with my own issues was producing a really terrible (and common) withdrawal/escalation pattern.

It's also helped me be a better parent: I'm now much more conscious of aiming for emotional validation with our kids. They're likely to have a similar vulnerability. And I call him out when he's invalidating towards them, which gets him noticing his own bad patterns -- which aren't just towards me (and which he'll take seriously because he doesn't want them to end up with a chronic case of suicidal ideation in adulthood, right?!).

I can also have strong positive emotions! It's not all bad.

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15 hours ago, anisotrophic said:

It's also helped me be a better parent: I'm now much more conscious of aiming for emotional validation with our kids. They're likely to have a similar vulnerability. And I call him out when he's invalidating towards them, which gets him noticing his own bad patterns

Yes, I understand this and find myself directing traffic to include validation these days. One doesn’t have to agree with another, but to feel heard and provide that emotional support is critical. We try to model for the children and role play to help them articulate towards resolution. Who knows how we are screwing them up, but perhaps they’ll recognize it and express it one day. Can’t wait...🙄🤣

 

The beauty of age is the clarity it can bring. It took decades to both identify and define our issues with full recognition. I’m not referencing just the asexuality, but also the patterns of engagement. 
 

15 hours ago, anisotrophic said:

I’d like sex to be ... fun again. I'd like to be able to flirt with someone and have them enjoy that.

That’s such a wonderful part of life, and it’s all you hope it will be. We canoodled today at his place and...🙌🏻.
 

Hmm, random thought: Adding the sex (in whatever form as a compromise) is analogous to having children: It’s a hell of a lot of work, but is both rewarding and worth it - Especially when you’re missing something as simple as the basics. Yes, it is definitely fun, and I do the work to include it in my journey too! All the way.

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  • 1 year later...

Phew. It's been a while. I kept intending to update, and didn't. I wonder what order to write things?

 

At my request, my husband pursued an ADHD evaluation, which resulted in a diagnosis. I was unsurprised by the diagnosis because it's largely a matter of interpretation, reasonably consistent. He also saw psychiatrist, who – pending some forms – is expected to send in a prescription.

Requesting him to pursue evaluation and potential treatment was prompted in part due to inattentive ADHD diagnoses in our children during the course of the pandemic, and then for myself in spring last year. And me learning, and firsthand observations, of the various ways deficits in executive function can impact behavior. That includes issues like emotional regulation, empathy and perspective taking, planning towards goals, habit formation. Do I "really" have ADHD, does he, does anyone? One interpretation is that I didn't take issue with many things because I had those issues myself. But over the years I ended up taking on more and more... maybe my maladaptive solution was to self-invalidate and use anger to push myself (leading to emotional dysregulation and BPD-like behaviors) while his was diminished "caring" about things he wasn't successfully doing and helplessness/incompetence (leading to dependent / avoidant / NPD-like behaviors).

Well, it's a narrative of sorts. There were two marital separations of a few months each in the past year. Maybe things will change. Maybe they will stay the same. Maybe they will get worse.

The pandemic led to career derailment for me, especially when combined with career changes for my spouse (which simultaneously increased income and stress). I tried very hard to cling to it. Also, an added element of gender dysphoria at finding myself feeling helpless at being pushed into the homemaker, caretaker role (we have young children). Very little emotional support.

It all summed up to complex trauma which I'm loath to talk to others about, because they have trouble understanding it. (As a result, it feels invalidated, and the fears continue to feel justified.) Often people think my "fear" is about not being able to do it, or having to explain a career gap -- "just do it and get over it" -- but I don't imagine any amount of successfully "doing it" would remove the fear of unpreventable loss, due to unforeseeable risks I cannot protect myself from, and it mattering little to others. Unfortunately it is symptoms of "trauma" -- I might wake frozen in fear, or have emotional flashbacks when I make a weak stab at recovering the skills and activities I used to do. Just being cold can trigger emotional flashbacks...

If I try to explain it's that bad, responses generally confirm my feeling unsafe. And... when I try to ignore the fear, I think I end up only falling farther back ... maybe because when the painful memories return, I'm unable to trust that where I am now is substantially different. (I've proven nothing to myself: I'm no safer than I was before, and now all the more hopeless.) It's been easier to not try, and not talk about it.

I'll keep working on it, I guess. Keep learning healthy emotional regulation.

In terms of sex, I can ask and lead and it happens fine. It's not too difficult to get myself aroused given the testosterone, and if I don't it's not a problem. "Sex" isn't really an experience of feeling loved or desired, nor can I imagine those receiving those things, but I don't really pine for it. I can't imagine it, and those hypothetical experiences of sexuality are very remote and low priority given where I am now.

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Windmills of My Mind

Wow, that's a lot to take in. I'm not sure what I can contribute to support. Here's a virtual hug. And cake, you may need some of that as well 🍰

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  • 3 weeks later...

Brief update: he increased dosage to typical adult levels last week and it feels like it's making a difference. I've become increasingly optimistic that we'll be able to re-interpret our history of relationship troubles as a hot mess of undiagnosed ADHD.

Being able to create a new narrative to the past is so valuable. A lot of long term anger I've felt has been dissipating in the last couple months. I think the fear has been dissipating too, but it lagged behind the anger. I've been practicing getting myself to focus on positive interpretations of events, more optimism about potential outcomes (and as a dialectic, as a DBT "skill", not black and white thinking). I have a general opinion that treating ADHD is key to developing better skills and habits, but medication alone won't make that happen (it just makes it a lot more possible) -- and that this includes cognitive skills and habits like empathy and emotional regulation.

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Windmills of My Mind

I am happy to hear things seem at least a little more positive for you right now. Still a lot of work ahead, but things are changing. Keep up the good work 💪

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