Is it selfish to seek a romantic relationship as a romantic ace?

[i'mjustme]

Hoping to hear from romantic aces...

I'm still trying to figure out the nuances of my asexuality, but I think I'm some sort of romantic ace. Currently, I do want to be involved in a romantic relationship and I'm seriously considering asking someone out. However, they are straight (as far as I know). Would it be selfish to ask them out and explore the possibility of a relationship, knowing that I'm not interested in sex? I understand that sex is an important part of a relationship for some people. This person does sort of know I'm asexual, but I'm not sure how much they know about asexuality in general. I guess I'm just confused; as a (most likely) romantic ace, I desire a romantic relationship, but I'm afraid it will lead to pressure to do things I'm not comfortable with. Even if I don't have to compromise, I feel like my significant other might feel cheated in a sexless relationship. Thoughts? 

[Alejandrogynous]

The way I see it, it's not selfish so long as you go into it with absolute transparency and are honest about your feelings. Chances are, a sexual person isn't going to be okay with a sexless relationship and that's perfectly valid, but they're still adults who can make their own choices so writing them off "for their own good" essentially, is kind of insulting. Be honest about what you're looking for in a relationship, let them do the same. Maybe they're open to it, maybe they're not. Maybe they think they are but realize they can't do it, maybe your feelings will change in some way too. That's just how it goes sometimes, and none of it is selfish as long as you both stay honest about it. Communication is key is key is key.

 

This advice applies to any relationship, not just for asexual/sexual issues.

[nineGardens]

This is going to sound weird but.... in some sense relationships SHOULD be selfish. They should be about you asking for a thing because you want that thing (be it warmth/affection/trust/sex/no sex/whatever). This doesn't mean you should be selfish IN the relationship, or put your needs ahead of the other person.... but having some "selfish"/self interested desire is not just normal- its kind of necessary. And putting your needs behind the other persons (too regularly) would be bad.

 

I know that's only tangential to your question, but I think its something people forget.

 

5 minutes ago, Alejandrogynous said:

 That's just how it goes sometimes, and none of it is selfish as long as you both stay honest about it.

I'm going to second this.

 

Be honest. Tell them how you feel. Maybe see how they feel and hang out a bit. See how you both feel over time. Take it slow... and make sure there is space for both you and them to say where you want things to go and what you each want to happen... without pressure to decide everything on day one.

If you try stuff out and it doesn't work, that is sad, and might even hurt but.... its still okay. Its not selfish, its just two people trying to see what works for them.

 

Be gentle with each other. Be gentle with yourself.

[Podsnap]

No member of the opposite sex has ever even wanted to stay friends with me after figuring it out that they're not going to "get any".

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Alejandrogynous said:

The way I see it, it's not selfish so long as you go into it with absolute transparency and are honest about your feelings. Chances are, a sexual person isn't going to be okay with a sexless relationship and that's perfectly valid, but they're still adults who can make their own choices so writing them off "for their own good" essentially, is kind of insulting. Be honest about what you're looking for in a relationship, let them do the same. Maybe they're open to it, maybe they're not. Maybe they think they are but realize they can't do it, maybe your feelings will change in some way too. That's just how it goes sometimes, and none of it is selfish as long as you both stay honest about it. Communication is key is key is key.

 

This advice applies to any relationship, not just for asexual/sexual issues.

I totally agree. Be honest with them and above all with yourself. If there is some kind of interest they should know about your orientation straight away. If you are both willing to compromise, cool. If either of you is not, it's nobody's fault. I recently found out that I am not able to compromise... still not my fault and I don't consider myself selfish for it.

[Philip027]

Everything we do is out of at least a little bit of selfishness, otherwise we wouldn't bother with doing it.

 

Don't decide for other people what's important for them, that's just presumptuous.

[LucindaC]

i'mjustme I know your pain, I really do. If anyone can figure this one out, please let me know. Endless rejection is hard.

[caiaccount]

I've grown to learn exactly how many options there are nowadays for people like us. Like a few people said above, the most important thing when seeking a romantic relationship with an allosexual person is honesty, truth, etc etc etc. Some allosexuals are okay with a sexless relationship, or you could have a more open relationship (polyamory is also an option). Leave space for more options.

 

I am very young but the number one problem in every relationship I've ever seen is lack of communication. Albeit this can be due to not wanting to hurt them, or feeling embarrassed or straight-up not caring. However, in due time the topic will have come up that you are asexual. And, I mean, there's only so many ways they can take it. Have an honest conversation with your relationship with sexual affairs. How you stand, what you are comfortable with (or aren't comfortable with). It's a conversation I've put off several times with my partners and it just gets worse as you force yourself to endure sexual contact you don't want.

 

Even if they don't accept you or aren't okay with it, it will be better than trying to force yourself to be okay with something you aren't. There are actually a lot of asexuals in the world, roughly as many schizophrenics (which sounds like a negative comparison, but I am both so it's funny to me). And even more so, there's so many allosexual people willing to be in relationships with asexuals.

[Alawyn-Aebt]

Not inherently

 

How far you can take it before it becomes selfish depends on how much you would be able to tolerate sex as a compromise. Despite what some AVENites proclaim, that romantic connections cannot last without sex, they are still possible and there are an enormous number of sexual couples in the world who only have sex very irregularly. People do function often with an internal unconscious guide that is selfish (Psychological Egoism for those interested in learning more) so in that way most of what we do have at least a slight edge of selfishness. Basically just follow what normal guidelines of openness in relations and it should be fine.

 

Not saying you will not be let down, but if you do not kick the ball you will never score.

EDIT: Do not read too deep into it that last sentence, it was merely a sport reference to prove my point.

[anisotrophic]

Wanting someone that's sexual to sacrifice a part of themselves to be together with you -- is that love? Compromise sex will never fully fill the gap; it might be worse than celibacy for some.

 

Sexual people often fail to recognize how much they've lost until they are deeply entangled -- and then they are faced with no choices that are not sacrifices.

 

Deception is antithetical to love. Even if you go in openly, you may cause suffering. You will put yourself at risk of suffering too, trying to give something you don't have. If you must do it, you should be very open and aware.

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, anisotrophic said:

Wanting someone that's sexual to sacrifice a part of themselves to be together with you -- is that love? Compromise sex will never fully fill the gap; it might be worse than celibacy for some.

 

Sexual people often fail to recognize how much they've lost until they are deeply entangled -- and then they are faced with no choices that are not sacrifices.

 

Deception is antithetical to love. Even if you go in openly, you may cause suffering. You will put yourself at risk of suffering too, trying to give something you don't have. If you must do it, you should be very open and aware.

Not everyone suffers in mixed relationships. Some of our sexual partners who chose it and knew beforehand are actually quite happy in their relationships. I think the key is they chose and knew up front sex was a no go. 

 

But, then, some struggle even knowing. OP: Look up a user called Padante and his posts about mixed marriage. He is one that chose it and knew but still has hard days. One of the sexual partners that can give you insight on the struggles from that viewpoint. 

[anisotrophic]

5 hours ago, Serran said:

Not everyone suffers in mixed relationships.

Yes, I did say "may"... I think the nuance I'm trying to add is that -- as you also note -- even with "knowing", it might still be harder than someone anticipates.

[WoodwindWhistler]

22 hours ago, i'mjustme said:

Hoping to hear from romantic aces...

I'm still trying to figure out the nuances of my asexuality, but I think I'm some sort of romantic ace. Currently, I do want to be involved in a romantic relationship and I'm seriously considering asking someone out. However, they are straight (as far as I know). Would it be selfish to ask them out and explore the possibility of a relationship, knowing that I'm not interested in sex? I understand that sex is an important part of a relationship for some people. This person does sort of know I'm asexual, but I'm not sure how much they know about asexuality in general. I guess I'm just confused; as a (most likely) romantic ace, I desire a romantic relationship, but I'm afraid it will lead to pressure to do things I'm not comfortable with. Even if I don't have to compromise, I feel like my significant other might feel cheated in a sexless relationship. Thoughts? 

it is not selfish to seek to fulfill needs. 

Everybody gets hurt sometimes in relationships. That's just life. Negotiating over sex is not always some super special category of hurt, to my mind. 

I just read an article the other day of a man who was abstaining from sex for completely secular reasons. 

"Do I miss sex? Yes, but not as much as I thought that I would. Arguably, sex is an addiction. Break the cycle and, over time, the physical and psychological "need" for sex lessens – you can do without it, hard as that may be to believe. Yes, you still think about it, but over time those thoughts lose their power."

https://www.theguardian.com/.../sex-celibacy-friendships...

According to what I've read browsing other forums, the model of sex as an addiction that can be broken holds up for a great number of allos. There are even methods to help this along. The only way to know whether an individual is capable of it, is to try it. If they can do it . . . less stressing over the risks for them, too!

See also "success is having only one orgasm a month" 

https://nextshark.com/this-is-why-the-key-to-productivity-and-success-is-having-only-one-orgasm-a-month/

https://blog.bulletproof.com/bulletproof-sex/

And don't these facts make perfect sense?? A woman's fertility comes once a month. The optimal interval for males is to have orgasm about once a month. Not a coincidence, I don't think!! And yet, sometimes our secular, sex-saturated society classifies a marriage with this interval as "sexless"!! Such bias!

Even for prehistorical males who might have had harems, ladies' cycles tend to sync up with each other through hormones, so they'd still have the month period in between. (if they were following cues from the women like chimps do, rather than whenever they felt like it. Possibly, like most animals, females would bite and ward them off when not in the receptive window)

As I've discovered and shared in another thread, PIV specifically is probably NOT all that instinctual, but rather largely built on cultural significance.

"chimpanzees raised among humans do not know what social sex is because they are never taught, this has been documented. when reintroduced to chimpanzees after adolescence they are [sic] have no instinctual knowledge of what to "do" to "have sex" - if they aren't taught by watching other chimpanzees, they don't know. biologists saying we are hardwired for sex are simply wrong and being pseudoscientific"

Me: "It's fascinating because animals can have INSANELY specific instincts that you wouldn't think were possible just through cellular coding, and yet when it comes to reproducing, getting sperm just *on* the female's bits will suffice, so that targeted a behavior simply isn't necessary. (rate of reproduction in primates has also necessarily slowed down because babies are so much effort to take care of and teach properly, too, so our survival strategy 'quality over quantity' does not rely on high number of successful matings, either)"

https://www.asexuality.org/en/topic/151911-sexual-desire-for-piv-is-biological-nope/

Whereas desire for plain touch and connection is policed to the point of suffering:

https://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/megasahd-the-lack-of-gentle-platonic-touch-in-mens-lives-is-a-killer/

 

 

[Homer]

On 4/21/2019 at 8:03 PM, Podsnap said:

No member of the opposite sex has ever even wanted to stay friends with me after figuring it out that they're not going to "get any".

On the other hand, would you want someone like that in your life?

[Podsnap]

5 hours ago, Homer said:

On the other hand, would you want someone like that in your life?

Good point.

[Xstatic]

On 4/21/2019 at 12:52 PM, nineGardens said:

This is going to sound weird but.... in some sense relationships SHOULD be selfish. They should be about you asking for a thing because you want that thing (be it warmth/affection/trust/sex/no sex/whatever). This doesn't mean you should be selfish IN the relationship, or put your needs ahead of the other person.... but having some "selfish"/self interested desire is not just normal- its kind of necessary. And putting your needs behind the other persons (too regularly) would be bad.

I struggle with this ALL the time.  My s/o scolds me and reminds me to save room for myself in all of that giving I do.  I thought of the word 'selfish' as only meaning something negative until fairly recently.  When my ex broke up with me, a friend of mine kept telling me that I need to learn how to be selfish.  That it will help me with my self-esteem, and self-care.  She wasn't wrong.  It just doesn't come naturally to me and it's something I've been working on.

 

@imjustme I'm very happy to be in my current relationship.  He's aro/ace.  I'm very much the opposite.  You could classify me as an agapic eros, bisexual romantic.  As such, I never want this relationship to end, but if it does, I will love him and care about him all the same.  I won't regret it.  Not for something like incompatibility.  That's not something either of us can control.

[anisotrophic]

9 hours ago, WoodwindWhistler said:

ladies' cycles tend to sync up with each other through hormones,

This is a myth. Which doesn't bode well for your other attempts at scientifically justified speculations.

 

See: https://www.livescience.com/58687-menstrual-cycle-sync-myth.html

 

9 hours ago, WoodwindWhistler said:

sex as an addiction that can be broken holds up for a great number of allos

🙄

 

It's like @Telecaster68 might say, I could break my "talking addiction". stop talking to others. eventually I get used to it, I don't feel so much urge to talk to people? But my ability to abstain from a standard social feature like talking doesn't make it an addiction.

 

9 hours ago, WoodwindWhistler said:

A woman's fertility comes once a month. The optimal interval for males is to have orgasm about once a month. Not a coincidence, I don't think!! And yet, sometimes our secular, sex-saturated society classifies a marriage with this interval as "sexless"!! Such bias!

Humans are fairly unique in having concealed ovulation. Which means they evolved for sex all the time -- rather than in response to fertility, and in contrast to most mammals.

 

I'm not saying you have to like sex, that's cool... you do you & my partner does him... but humans evolved to do it, a lot more than once a month.

[WoodwindWhistler]

On 4/22/2019 at 10:58 PM, anisotrophic said:

Humans are fairly unique in having concealed ovulation. Which means they evolved for sex all the time -- rather than in response to fertility, and in contrast to most mammals.

Although this is commonly said in textbooks, the "sex all the time" theory in ongoing research has been hotly disputed. As a fun example.

"It turns out that, maybe, we don’t conceal our fertility as well as we think." 

"this difference translates into an almost $700 monthly penalty for women using oral contraceptives."

https://bigthink.com/dollars-and-sex/ovulating-lap-dancers-make-more-money

Also, I'm not convinced that our early female ancestors did not know when they were fertile. Plenty of women can tell!

Mindfulness, practicing general body and emoions awareness, and clearing out all the clutter of modern life would probably make this even more apparent. 

I looked up the bit about menstrul cycles- guess you're right. So it would depend on whether a male had a harem or not. It might result in a natural flux where one male expended that energy, became complacent with the others becoming stronger through the sexual 'lean times,' then getting dethroned. Hm. 

I think our sense of smell doesn't get enough credit. I remember another study where it was shown that women can tell from smell if a man has histocompatibility (the man's specific genetic immunity complimented their own). The reverse wasn't true, though. 

I think whoever came up with the "sex all the time" theory might've been steeped in a patriarchal culture of some sort.  

Also perhaps the idea that fertility signs are null is rooted in a 'women aren't sexual' bias. 

[anisotrophic]

@WoodwindWhistler You are making no logical sense here. And as an aside: I detest evpsych's attraction to armchair scientists.

Look at it this way: Is ovulation concealed in humans? Yes, it is. Human biology has gone out of its way to cease advertising when ovulation occurs. This is a recently evolved trait in humans.

 

You can speculate that traces of "signal" remain, and that people might still be able to detect ovulation -- despite the fact that it is concealed -- but you would be ignoring the fact that it evolved to be concealed.

[WoodwindWhistler]

2 minutes ago, anisotrophic said:

@WoodwindWhistler You are making no logical sense here. And as an aside: I detest evpsych's attraction to armchair scientists.

Look at it this way: Is ovulation concealed in humans? Yes, it is. Human biology has gone out of its way to cease advertising when ovulation occurs. This is a recently evolved trait in humans.

 

You can speculate that traces of "signal" remain, and that people might still be able to detect ovulation -- despite the fact that it is concealed -- but you would be ignoring the fact that it evolved to be concealed.

Yeah ok, so let's set aside the evo-psyche and look at the contemporary investigation I just listed, as well as the lived experiences of women. No objection from me, there. 

I recall some posts here where people were like "I'm asexual but when I'm fertile I'm sexual" or the libidoist corollary, "I have no libido but when I'm fertile I do," which are amusing, considering that's probably just . . . pretty typical!

But in an environment in which the media flashes sexuality at you every 4 minutes in an ad, some people start to feel like there's something 'different' about them if they're not up for it all the time. (Just writing this next bit for anyone else who's following the convo. You can ignore this part in parentheses since it's evo-psych. In a hunter-gather society or in a village, think about how often you would see anything sexy. That absence or presence of hypersexuality, I believe, has a pronounced effect on individuals. The asexual community is on the front lines of disassembling this tension at the cross section of modernity and whatever more subtle sexualities that come naturally to people. Many, many women are claiming demisexuality and graysexuality for example, and despite how skeptics complain, I say there's absolutely nothing wrong with that.)

The signs of fertility are actually fairly obvious once Fertility Awareness classes draw attention to them. And women note how they feel, too, and how it coincides. Remember, we live in a culture that is so trained against sex that some full grown, middle aged women didn't even know what a vagina looks like because they've never examined their own. So many actively repress sexuality, and sex therapists have full time careers to undo this. As someone who's embarked upon full-body awareness training, even unrelated to sexuality, I was totally shocked to find out how "in my head" I was, and how ignored my overall body was in my day to day living. Being immersed in a primarily mental culture and/or one that shames will do that to people. 

Largely, we do not live in a state where people are aware of their bodies, like other animals. That's not 'concealed ovulation' (from ourselves, at least), necessarily- that's just what I described above.

You just re-stating things you believe and have been taught is adding nothing to the conversation. 

"speculate" Evidence is not speculation. Don't rhetorically water down the issue. 

According to my previous post, men can detect fertility, (and if you were to ask them directly to "guess" if a woman was fertile or not- which would be the next step, they'd likely do much better than chance, and get better at it, if followed through. Evo psyche warning: they'd be much better at it if that was their primary focus, as it is for animals)  and women can detect it in themselves. It's not completely 'hidden' from anyone. It's just less IN YOUR FACE than chimp-style. "Less obvious ovulation" *might* be more accurate. And catchy. 

[Xstatic]

But, uh, science aside, I could totally do the sex all the time gig.... 

 

(づ｡◕‿‿◕｡)づ

[WoodwindWhistler]

1 minute ago, ☆ﾟ°˖* ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ said:

But, uh, science aside, I could totally do the sex all the time gig.... 

 

(づ｡◕‿‿◕｡)づ

So do you have an independent bodily sex drive all the time? Or do you just like it enough to do it all the time? That's the distinction I'm getting at. 

[Xstatic]

16 minutes ago, WoodwindWhistler said:

So do you have an independent bodily sex drive all the time? Or do you just like it enough to do it all the time? That's the distinction I'm getting at. 

It's pretty primal.  I actually don't physically even enjoy sex all that much.  But I'm powerfully driven towards it for some damn reason.

[MystictheUnicorn]

@i'mjustme - It's not just you, you've taken the words right out of my mouth! Following this thread to see what replies and advice you get. 

[greyisnotacolor]

The simple answer is: no, you are NOT selfish for wanting a romantic relationship. You identify as a romantic person, but with asexual desires. You have needs too, and you are absolutely allowed to feel the way you feel and need the things you need in order to make you happy!

 

In terms of translating that through to a partner in a relationship, that's where the hard, hard, HARD work comes in. In order to even begin to chip away at that hard work, you need to determine whether or not both of you are willing to sacrifice some things in order to balance out the work load. It's not unlike a conventional relationship, but there are certainly a few more boundaries that need to be discussed, but overall a successful relationship for a romantic asexual is absolutely possible.

 

I myself am in a relationship with a very sexual person, and we talk about this topic very often. We check in with one another and do our best to stay on the same page about where our needs are at and making sure we're being 'fair' to both parties: yes, there is scheduled sex and yes, if sometimes that scheduled sex isn't feeling right for me, he knows to give me a bit of space about it. But the bottom line is that we're both in this together, and we love the be-jesus out of each other. We just had to experiment with a few different options regarding the sex part in order to find something that worked for our relationship.

 

Now. Some sexual folks won't be able to forfeit that time and energy for that sort of relationship, and as asexuals we need to be prepared for that. We would want the same from them so there should be some level of give and take from you, too. The reality/unfortunate thing about being asexual is that it can be very lonely at times. It's easy to fall into a state of feeling as though you're not worthy or that you're broken, and that's not fair to the rest of you that is amazing! It happens to me often, and it's not a fun feeling. But you should never feel selfish for knowing who you are and what you're willing and capable of, sex or no sex.

[James121]

On 4/21/2019 at 6:22 PM, i'mjustme said:

Hoping to hear from romantic aces...

I'm still trying to figure out the nuances of my asexuality, but I think I'm some sort of romantic ace. Currently, I do want to be involved in a romantic relationship and I'm seriously considering asking someone out. However, they are straight (as far as I know). Would it be selfish to ask them out and explore the possibility of a relationship, knowing that I'm not interested in sex? I understand that sex is an important part of a relationship for some people. This person does sort of know I'm asexual, but I'm not sure how much they know about asexuality in general. I guess I'm just confused; as a (most likely) romantic ace, I desire a romantic relationship, but I'm afraid it will lead to pressure to do things I'm not comfortable with. Even if I don't have to compromise, I feel like my significant other might feel cheated in a sexless relationship. Thoughts? 

Yes if it’s with a sexual person, no if it isn’t 

[Xstatic]

14 hours ago, James121 said:

Yes if it’s with a sexual person, no if it isn’t 

I disagree.

[James121]

5 hours ago, ☆ﾟ°˖* ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ said:

I disagree.

You won’t be the last to.

[chairdesklamp]

On 4/21/2019 at 11:03 AM, Podsnap said:

No member of the opposite sex has ever even wanted to stay friends with me after figuring it out that they're not going to "get any".

That's not right. I just can't imagine a real friendship working like that. Now maybe if you dated and it went badly (I've actually fallen in love and hidden my feelings for fear of this. 2/4 times I've felt that way. In high school, when everyone's awkward. Wouldn't hide my feelings now at twice that age with twice the life experience, though, but would absolutely make a lot of room to reject me and keep the friendship, because obviously I like being around that person) 

 

I also just can't imagine sexual feelings being a factor on the other side of any of my friendships, either. My close friends are like family anyway, so it'd be weird. 

 

I really hope that this is just that you don't have access to great circles, because that is really messed up and obviously not friendship. That's ulterior motive of "scoring."

[Samule]

13 hours ago, James121 said:

You won’t be the last to.

That's certainly true. The whole point is that the OP doesn't really know what the other person's into sexually, at this stage. If she acts in a way that's just, honest and prudent (I borrowed that maxim from Epicurus, but it works ok) then she's not being unduly selfish in seeing if a relationship is on.