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RoseGoesToYale

Free phone call from jail

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RoseGoesToYale

I wasn't going to make this thread, but now I think I am. Any time a person is arrested in a democratic society (or at least, I know the US and Canada do this, at least, in the movies it always works like this... I'm not a law expert) that person is allowed at least one phone call, presumably to let their mother know that they are in fact alive, are in jail, and maybe this time, just this time, need some help. I have noticed that no such extension exists here, and that at any random time, AVEN members I know and friends might be under a ban for any indeterminate period of time and the rest of the forum will not be apprised of this fact. It is in this situation I may scramble, in my very much anxiety-plagued skull, to ascertain what horrible fate may have befallen them.

 

Being that this is an online locale, it's much easier to drop off the face of a forum than from real life, because if you drop out of real life people tend to notice. In the event a well-established AVEN member is about to take a short, long, or eternal hiatus, they will usually post a status update to that effect, informing how long they will be gone and when/if they will return and various benedictions, so as to lessen the anxiety of friends and assure them of their aliveness, safety, and health. However, and I'm not apprised of how exactly the banning procedure works, bans do appear to be immediate and affect the posting of status updates, so a banned member may not be able to inform others of their nowhereabouts for the duration of that time.

 

Yes, there is always the possibility of someone picking up the jail phone and telling Joe Bozo to hurry up, flush the rest of the stash and get outta there, but in this instance I believe most members would use such a privilege merely to inform others that they are safe, but banned. Perhaps a penalty of increased severity in the event a member misuses phone privileges. A member need not go into detail about the ban, just that it is happening and for how long, and they may choose not to post anything if they wish.

 

I thus present my case for the allowance of a single status update in the event of a ban, so that we may not worry that anyone has met their untimely death. Is this possible? (If not, please excuse this thread and my awful attempts at puffy-sounding Victorian English...)

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Puck

But this isn't a government. This is a private organization offering free use of it's resources.

 

Do you know of other forums or sites that use this? If so, how do they exact it?

 

I understand what you're trying to do and I commend you for attempting to help the community by helping better communication between it's members, but I think it's really important to remember that mods are free volunteers. To actually execute this would be rather cumbersome and have potential backlashes. Right now, mods issue a warning and exact it the moment it's issued. If this system were to be implemented, I would fear that mods wouldn't know how to make it work. It would certainly create a lot more work on volunteers who I know already often feel overwhelmed by their duties. Before implementing a ban, they'd have to reach out to people and square this away. There is no guarantee either party (mod or member) will be on at the same time, thus making the bad potentially last longer as it could now take up to 24hrs to implement. 

 

I think it's a good thought and fair idea, but I think it's just an unfair ask of our volunteers. I think for most, it might be a good plan to just find a second form of communication with those one would like to keep in touch with in the event of a ban. 

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SithEmpress

I guess I can see your point. Not sure if I agree but I struggle to see the problem with it as long as there was a limit to the status being allowed.

 

I went to the ToS to check what the official rules are concerning Warnings and Bans. Anyone being banned is announced through a thread and Warnings are added on top of one another. There is a thing about suspension in later Warnings, but they carry with them the chance to tell your friends if you've been warned and are engaged in conversations which might get you another warning and a suspension. 

 

I think an automatic status when one gets banned would be better than allowing them to post one. Something like "This user has been banned and will no longer be allowed to post on this site." Or something of that nature. Not sure what all accompanies a ban, nor if "ban" as used by OP actually means suspension because of the time limit mentioned. Or if I'm getting the terms confused... (confused emoji)

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RoseGoesToYale
10 minutes ago, Puck said:

Do you know of other forums or sites that use this?

I don't know of any status update systems, but I've seen a lot of forums do rank changes to banned members so it'll display "BANNED" or "PERMABANNED" under their username. I wasn't sure if that was possible in this forum software.

 

4 minutes ago, sithgirlix said:

I went to the ToS to check what the official rules are concerning Warnings and Bans. Anyone being banned is announced through a thread and Warnings are added on top of one another. There is a thing about suspension in later Warnings, but they carry with them the chance to tell your friends if you've been warned and are engaged in conversations which might get you another warning and a suspension. 

Whoa, there's a thread for that? I had no idea, I'll have to go find it.

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SithEmpress
6 minutes ago, RoseGoesToYale said:

Whoa, there's a thread for that? I had no idea, I'll have to go find it.

Think I found it: Banned Members announcements

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Back to Avalon

A lot of members were banned for "socking." What is that?

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Scottthespy

I wonder if it would be possible and how hard it would be to make it so that banning a person automatically puts their status to 'been banned', so that friends or concerned bystanders could just look them up to see if that was the cause of a disappearance. 

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Laurann
1 hour ago, Back to Avalon said:

A lot of members were banned for "socking." What is that?

Making a new account after your old one got banned.

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Una Salus Victus
1 hour ago, Back to Avalon said:

A lot of members were banned for "socking." What is that?

Making a duplicate account

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Homer

While it sounds like a decent idea in theory, I think that all it does is causing drama-llamas. 

 

Let's go down that road for a minute. A member gets banned and makes a final statement. Then we'll have someone create a bitter thread about it, asking questions staff aren't allowed to answer anyway, raising suspicion, creating room for conspiracies. We had a few threads like that recently, nothing good came of them.

 

Besides that, the "jail call" situation isn't really comparable. You can make that call to inform loved ones or a lawyer to make them aware of your situation before a trial even starts. To get banned on here, you usually have to be on two warnings. Two warnings should be enough to make people reconsider their style. It's not something that hits you out of the blue.

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Timeless

It would be inviting drama.

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daveb
9 hours ago, sithgirlix said:

I went to the ToS to check what the official rules are concerning Warnings and Bans.

I'd really encourage everyone to read the Terms of Service. You can find information on such things as bans and suspensions, sock accounts, and various other rules, procedures, terminology, etc. :) 

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Yangster
13 hours ago, Puck said:

But this isn't a government. This is a private organization offering free use of it's resources. 

 

To be honest, I see this point raised here and on other websites all the time.  I don't think it's a useful point because we already know that sites like AVEN aren't bound by the same laws as public institutions.

 

The real question is whether or not we should choose to follow in their example and hold ourselves to the same standards and principles.  In some states, only government employees are required to be paid a living wage.  Private businesses can point out that that rule does not apply to them until they lose their voice, but that does little to address the issue of whether or not making a living wage standard in all workplaces is wise or not on its own.

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Back to Avalon

Thanks for explaining, @Laurann and @Una Salus Victus. I thought that's what it meant, inferring from context, but I wanted to be sure.

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Guest
On 4/8/2019 at 8:04 AM, RoseGoesToYale said:

I wasn't going to make this thread, but now I think I am. Any time a person is arrested in a democratic society (or at least, I know the US and Canada do this, at least, in the movies it always works like this... I'm not a law expert) that person is allowed at least one phone call, presumably to let their mother know that they are in fact alive, are in jail,

That's a Hollywood myth. While the cops may usually extend the courtesy of making a phone call to you, you don't have a legally guaranteed right to it in the US.

 

The only person you have a right to contact if you're under arrest is your lawyer. (And AFAIK, the cops can call them for you; if they contact the lawyer and he comes to speak to you while you're held under arrest, your rights have been fulfilled.)

 

 

As for AVEN... I echo the sentiment of "that's what the Recently Banned thread is for". (A thread which, in the past, has not been updated in a sufficiently timely and consistent fashion... but if that's done properly, no message from Banned ex-members needs to be allowed in person.)

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Guest Jetsun Milarepa

As @Homer says, it would just encourage intrigue and further bitterness.

Anyhow, as has been demonstrated on occasion, people are in contact with each other out with the boundaries of AVEN anyway and can get messages through.

 

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CBC

I get this, yeah. I agree with what others have said on the ban thing, there's a thread for that, but I can see the merit for suspensions perhaps, where the person will be back. Why not issue the official warning with the suspension notice perhaps 24 hours before it takes effect, and allow the member in question to do things like share contact info or make a status update? Or could something on their profile say "This member's account has been a suspended until [whatever date]"?

 

I recently came off a two-week suspension that took effect out of the blue. I woke up on the morning of the 24th of March, loaded AVEN, got a big long message on a bright red background... and that was it, locked out. Of the members who are currently active, I have outside-AVEN one-on-one contact with three of them; two friends (one of whom was also suspended simultaneously) and my partner. I gather a lot of people wondered where the hell I went, but like... what was I supposed to do, tell one of the people I talk to to create a thread entitled "Hey guys, CBC isn't dead!"? I don't have that level of self-importance and it seems cringey as fuck. Actually my birthday occurred during my suspension and someone posted a birthday wish in an ongoing thread in the celebrations forum, and I wrote up a brief response and asked my girlfriend to post it for me, but beyond that, there wasn't much I was able to do. (It still boggles my mind that people actually wonder or care, but that's perhaps my shitty self-worth talking. At the very least I'm aware that I'm an active and prominent member, so it's reasonable to assume people will notice a sudden absence.)

 

So yeah, I think the ban thread suffices, but in the case of suspensions... could anything be done there?

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firewallflower

It's an idea, and I definitely see the benefit. Unfortunately, however, even aside from questions of implemention, I do have to agree that this would likely lend itself to drama above all else. (After all, immediately after receiving a ban or suspension is probably not a time people will be most inclined to dispassionately inform others of the fact of their ban/suspension without bitterness.)

 

That said, there is still the issue of worrying about someone disappearing off the face of the earth  (or at least, the face of AVEN) with no explanation, and I'd like to see a way to prevent that uncertainty. Many users do have non-AVEN contact with others, as has been mentioned, so in that case a banned/suspended user could just ask someone else to let the community know. (Though that definitely comes with its own potential for drama and bitterness - as we've seen on occasion - but beside the point, and if drama is going to happen, it's going to happen, one way or another.) Not everyone does have that outside contact, however.

 

As an alternate suggestion, what if that "free phone call" was made by an admod? In the case of permanent bans, a simple "firewallflower has been banned," with a link to the banned members announcement thread (because, while I follow the thread myself, it's evident that not everyone is aware of, or remembers, its existence) could do the trick. For suspended users, the equivalent would be something along the lines of "firewallflower is suspended from AVEN activity until *date of end of suspension*, but because not everyone may want their suspension made public, perhaps a line could be added to the form message notifying people of second active warnings/suspensions to the effect of "If you would like the AVEN community informed of this suspension, please contact an admod to request a post made on your page" (in the same way that people are given the option to appeal warnings). This way it's still up to the suspended user if they want it announced or not, but if so, they can get the message out so people know they're alive.

 

Would something along these lines work?

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daveb

I can see all sides of this (in terms of banning and suspensions of all sorts; not to mention people who just drop off of AVEN for various reasons, some of which may not be able to notify anyone beforehand or even afterwards), but I don't know about solutions. Some may have unintended consequences or may not work in all cases or may not be so helpful or have some other drawbacks (as well as pluses).

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Snao Cone

Members' disciplinary history isn't made public unless they're banned. Posting a status update, especially if it's automatic, will make I public. I'm sure some members would want that in the event they're suspended for two weeks, but not all would, and any member who wants to appeal the warning that got them suspended can't talk about it openly. So those factors would need to be looked at. 

 

I think it's fair to let a member facing suspension ask admods to notify another member of their choice. Like if I were to be suspended and didn't have ways of communicating that outside of AVEN (no emails or soc med with members) then I could request admods "Hey, let RoseGoesToYale know that I'm suspended." I don't think there are any rules against admods doing that now. Admins can see the email address associated with accounts, so they'll know it's coming from me and there won't be issues with leaking information without consent. Perhaps admods should offer that each time someone's suspended. I know I've worried about people falling off the face of the earth when they're just suspended or taking a break, but I shouldn't be entitled to know why unless the member asks admods to tell me.

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firewallflower
17 minutes ago, Snao Cone said:

I think it's fair to let a member facing suspension ask admods to notify another member of their choice. Like if I were to be suspended and didn't have ways of communicating that outside of AVEN (no emails or soc med with members) then I could request admods "Hey, let RoseGoesToYale know that I'm suspended." I don't think there are any rules against admods doing that now. Admins can see the email address associated with accounts, so they'll know it's coming from me and there won't be issues with leaking information without consent. Perhaps admods should offer that each time someone's suspended. I know I've worried about people falling off the face of the earth when they're just suspended or taking a break, but I shouldn't be entitled to know why unless the member asks admods to tell me.

Totally agreed with this. (Hence my similar suggestion above.)

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CBC

I honestly think AVEN treats that information way too sensitively anyway. Got fairly warned for something? Have the balls to stand behind the fact that you were being an asshole. Got unfairly warned for something? Definitely have the balls to stand behind whatever you said. Doesn't bother me in the least for people to know what shit I've gotten myself into. Here's what I see when I look at my own profile, and I couldn't care less who knows it (and yes I'm aware some of you are probably shocked that I've had only three warnings in my 15 years here; plenty more nudges, though :D). I understand some people may be uneasy with their digressions being shared, but... I dunno, go spend your emotional energy on the plight of some homeless refugees or a species of monkey that's going extinct or whatever that ugly orange bastard in the White House is doing.

 

15-D73916-94-A9-4-F57-A4-CD-BFB21941-C3-

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RoseGoesToYale
28 minutes ago, Snao Cone said:

I think it's fair to let a member facing suspension ask admods to notify another member of their choice. Like if I were to be suspended and didn't have ways of communicating that outside of AVEN (no emails or soc med with members) then I could request admods "Hey, let RoseGoesToYale know that I'm suspended."

I like this much better, and that way there'd be no holes for the banned member to abuse the privilege since the message is at the admod's discretion. For members that use forums specifically for the anonymity/safety, it might be the only contact they have.

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FaerieFate

Permanent banned members are put on the banned list. Temporarily banned members are only gone for 2 weeks, and I don't (personally) see a reason why there would be concern if they're gone for 2 weeks? If someone is gone for a week I just assume they're sick, is that just me? 

 

I will have to hear from more active and regular members before I really decide if this is a problem or not. But I don't think the solution is allow them a status update partially because that's a lot of work on the admods and partially because I've seen cases where someone gets their 2 week ban and I'm like "Omg, that's a relief" because the member was just going off on a thread causing like 20 reports in 5 minutes with blatant insults and locking that thread only resulted in them moving that to a different thread (or in some cases several threads, or even creating a brand new thread with the same topic specifically to continue the argument it really irritates me when I see that even when I'm not a mod).

 

But, I mean, I might think about other possibilities if regular active members really think this is a big issue. 

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FaerieFate
8 minutes ago, RoseGoesToYale said:

I like this much better, and that way there'd be no holes for the banned member to abuse the privilege since the message is at the admod's discretion. For members that use forums specifically for the anonymity/safety, it might be the only contact they have.

Banned members are able to email admins to appeal given the email in here is an email they actually use. It's not specifically stated that they can email admins asking to let someone know they're banned, but if you're banned I wouldn't see the harm in asking if they can? But I don't see why this needs to be an official rule or anything. 

 

I ask about things that aren't directly stated can or can't in the rules all the time. Mostly get a positive response. 

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LeChat
1 hour ago, FaerieFate said:

...Temporarily banned members are only gone for 2 weeks, and I don't (personally) see a reason why there would be concern if they're gone for 2 weeks? If someone is gone for a week I just assume they're sick, is that just me?...

I just assume that members might be busy with life, since many mention being busy with school, jobs, etc.

 

I can understand both sides of the issue: it'd be useful for members to know whether or not a member left on their own accord or not, yet, as @Snao Cone mentioned, the privacy issue would be a concern (for those who wouldn't want others to be updated on their warning status) and I suppose--as others mentioned--there might be a risk for the status update to cause members to be upset and perhaps feel that Admods are unfairly "punishing" the same member(s).

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CBC
2 hours ago, FaerieFate said:

If someone is gone for a week I just assume they're sick, is that just me? 

Well as a person with chronic health issues, I'm some type of sick (from "I feel bleh today" to "I spent the night in the ER") a lot of the time and I'm on AVEN basically every day because it's really easy to sit around online when you're in pain or nauseated or exhausted. Like if I was admitted to hospital I'd be on AVEN, 'cause what else would there be to do stuck in a hospital bed (other than watch TV). So if I was a type of sick where I couldn't be on AVEN, it would be because I was so gravely ill that I couldn't hold my phone in my hand. Basically dying or in a coma. In which case, egotistical as it feels to say it, I guess some people here would apparently want to know about. If someone is very active -- they're posting when they're at work, posting when they're at school, checking into AVEN when they're out for drinks with friends and posting in the "What you doin' now?" thread that they're out for drinks with friends, staying up long past a reasonable bedtime just so they can mess about on AVEN, posting when they're laid up with a nasty case of the flu, etc. -- then it's probably fair for others to worry if they disappear suddenly and without warning.

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FaerieFate
8 hours ago, CBC said:

Well as a person with chronic health issues, I'm some type of sick (from "I feel bleh today" to "I spent the night in the ER") a lot of the time and I'm on AVEN basically every day because it's really easy to sit around online when you're in pain or nauseated or exhausted. Like if I was admitted to hospital I'd be on AVEN, 'cause what else would there be to do stuck in a hospital bed (other than watch TV). So if I was a type of sick where I couldn't be on AVEN, it would be because I was so gravely ill that I couldn't hold my phone in my hand. Basically dying or in a coma. In which case, egotistical as it feels to say it, I guess some people here would apparently want to know about. If someone is very active -- they're posting when they're at work, posting when they're at school, checking into AVEN when they're out for drinks with friends and posting in the "What you doin' now?" thread that they're out for drinks with friends, staying up long past a reasonable bedtime just so they can mess about on AVEN, posting when they're laid up with a nasty case of the flu, etc. -- then it's probably fair for others to worry if they disappear suddenly and without warning.

Guess it's different for me because of my health issues. I forget to most people being sick doesn't include not holding down food/water or not being able to eat. Yeah, my body hates me too.

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Philip027

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OnePhoneCall

It's commonly depicted in media but isn't an actual thing.  You are only entitled to an attorney (as stated in the Miranda rights, "you have the right to remain silent..."), so they are the only people they pretty much have to let you call.

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Serran

We all know the banned member announcement thread keeps being neglected. When I was admod, the person updating it let it get very, very out of date to the point people wondered if it was even a thing anymore. So ... it isn't really a thing to be relied on for many members. 

 

And yeah people worry if their friend they may talk to daily drops off AVEN two weeks. Some people have outside access, some don't. Doesn't mean they lack friendship just cause they didn't share emails. Right now admods dont have to contact anyone, probably wouldn't due to breaching rules. And everyone that knew Shockwave or other AVENites we have lost should know how worrying it is for a regular to just disappear and how jarring it is to learn the reason was they passed. It is like if your friend at college just one day doesn't come back and you didn't exchange phone #s yet cause you thought you had plenty of time before semester ended to hang out at school before doing it. 

 

Allowing a request to let members know wouldn't be violating anything. "X is OK, but will be away from AVEN for a short hiatus". 

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