Sooooooo...I'm kinda Republican.

[Alawyn-Aebt]

 

I would love to hear more about the healthcare idea you heard of and the specifics. Of course nothing is perfect, but we can do better than right now.

On 4/8/2019 at 4:47 PM, The Phage Mage said:

But with the money that the rich invest in their companies (not all are/were CEOs, but many of them are/were), it should help to expand the job market.

Ah, trickle-down economics, I had hoped you died in 2008 along with Bush II. The only problem with that is that is does not quite work out in practice. I tried to add an image showing growth and the top tax bracket percentage from Fed statistics, but it seems to be too long to work. Anyways, our growth has slowed, not substantially, but there is no denying it has slowed (Reagan's tax cuts were right at the turning point) and continues to slow. Now whether this will continue and the USA or what exactly will happen remains to be seen, but declining growth rates over 30+ years in Industrial Capitalist nation is a bad sign.

 

Unemployment it correlated to an extent with growth, but the unemployment figured do not feature those discouraged workers, who have made up an increasing share of those unemployed but not searching and therefore not counted since 2008, nor the underemployed, which made up a startling large number. What is interesting as we enter a period Neoclassical economists would see as full employment and the corresponding rise in wages, we have yet to see wages move in any meaningful climb as they should. Possibly the Keynesian/Post-Keynesian stricter-requirements for full employment are correct. If so that would revolutionize how we see employment and call for a continuous and careful government-sponsored emphasis on, as the Post-Keynesians would say, Actual full employment.

 

I do second Evren's concerns, although my family is usually middle class my, and my family's employment possibilities are not great. Although you, and even I face this at college some, treat computer science and technology as the end-all-be-all for economic mobility it is truly not. Only some of us like or have the necessary skillset, even with practice, to become good enough at such tasks. Myself, I am a History and Economic major with a wide range of interests in the Humanities and Social Sciences, but such skills and knowledge I have would do nothing for finding a job in those things you mentioned. And while some retails pays well (or simply better) not all of us have that patience or skillset to do that. 

 

My attempts at getting a job in occupations I would do well at have failed. Library, no (my friends joked, possibly with some truth, that the librarian would not hire me because I knew more than she did). Tutor elementary-school students in history, no (too much historical detail). Help my fellow college students in economics, no (too few students in the economic department to possibly help). College Internal-Mailman, no (need a drivers license for 4 years, I am 18 how was I supposed to get it when I was 14?).

Even though hypothetically we have a shortage of workers since we (according to the Neoclassical school) be running close to full employment, those jobs in demand are not jobs that everyone has the skillset nor the interest in doing. I am not saying people are too lazy to try, but how is my knowledge of Macroeconomic policy and Global History since 1500 supposed to translate to the in-demand jobs of technology?

 

[EDIT:hope this came through right, I have been trying to hit send for 30 minutes and AVEN keeps kicking me or saying "this field required" and deleting it all after I hit send, yet it never came though. I don't feel like rereading this again right now and checking for error so I apologize in advance.]

[Evren]

10 hours ago, The Phage Mage said:

@Evren Sorry this is so late! 😅 I got caught up with a different project and forgot! Anyways, Part 2:

 

I do want to make it clear that I don't believe that most people in the lower class are lazy. Many of them, including yourself as you made it seem, are hard workers and are willing to do the jobs most people won't touch. I really appreciate that. It too often goes unrecognized. However, I would like to disagree on the point about learning a skill. You can learn a skill without documentation just fine, but without any proof? Well, your projects are your proof. Anything you work on to improve your skillset you can save and/or document fairly easily. Even just logging your progress in a notebook can help. Yeah, it isn't "official proof" like a degree or something, but really, most jobs really shouldn't require a degree. NOT ALL. There are obviously exceptions, especially if you're trying to become a doctor or lawyer or some other doctorate degree job. But if we're being honest, who needs a degree to program a computer, paint a picture, work as a lab tech, run a business, etc.? You can google most of that and learn more than you'd learn in school anyway. I do believe a degree can help a bit, but it really doesn't make a difference in the long run as long as you can deliver on whatever job you're asked to do. Employers look for more than a degree, usually, and that includes informal training, skills, and willingness to work hard and adapt. 

 

College is lowkey a cash-grab. More than lowkey. Most of the degrees won't pay out what it costs to get them, as evidenced my several people I know and I'm sure many, many others. One lady I know has been back to college 4 or 5 times trying to make more money to pay off her student debt. This certainly isn't everyone, (and I don't have much data on hand because I'm in AP Lit class rn and trying to split my attention, haha), but I know crap like this happens more often than anyone wamts to admit to. I'm heading to college in the fall entirely on scholarships (except housing, but $7k a year is far easier than $53k), and I encourage anyone going to or going *back* to college to find scholarships if they feel they need a degree. And there are scholarships for anything and everything. From something as big as academics or a 800 word essay to finding a picture of yourself with pigtails from kindergarten (yes, this is a real scholarship, not worth a whole lot, but all the small ridiculous ones that no one applies for will add up pretty quickly.

 

That was kind of an odd tangent, but the point is, there are many more ways to prove a skill than a piece of paper with your name on it. They may be more efficient and save you more money in the long run. It's a climb, but it can be done. It takes effort to climb from middle class as well, which I hope to do for my own family by becoming a pediatric oncologist.  I have no expectation of being in the top 1%, but any improvement is far better than none. And I truly believe anyone, no matter what roadblocks they have in their way, can improve their financial status. Sometimes it takes extra effort (providing one *can* work more, I have no expectation of people working 50, 60, 100 hours a week to work more). Sometimes it takes the courage to ask for a raise or hunt down a higher paying job (Hobby Lobby part-timers start at $10.45 an hour, full-timers at $15.70 an hour, I believe Panera Bread starts you around $12 an hour for part-time but don't quote me on that. Baristas also make fairly decent wages to my knowledge). Sometimes you just need to learn how to work the system (find any sort of LEGAL exploits you can to save every possible penny; if I recall, Bill Gates learned to program by utilizing a glitch to get free time in the computer lab. I cite that as one example, not the only example. There is always a way to save more). Sometimes it takes some luck, but not always (there are obviously a few people that just so happen to be in the right place at the right time to get a great job). Essentially, where there is a will, there is a way. Not always an easy or ideal way, not always a fun way, not always a way that takes the burden off immediately or ever, but I guarantee that everyone is capable of it.

 

Hope I didn't upset you at all, this is just my two cents. I believe in you, m8!

You didn't upset me. Sorry when I talk about things that affect me I tend to get passionate. These are obviously things that people can do, and I do agree that it can help people become more financially stable.

 

The biggest problem with being poor, isn't one person being poor. It generational poorness, which i'm sure has a name. When you are genarationally poor then everything is harder. Because you live in a poor part of town, your schools will be worse (Because we pay for schools with county taxes, meaning that if you live a poor county your school is poor). If your parents have to work everyday all day, they can't teach you how to drive, how to balance your check book. The food you buy will include less fruits and vegetables and more processed crap. Going to the doctor will only happen when you absolutely have to, and issues that would get checked out right away (possible autism, ADHD, ect.) may never be discovered. Your parents will tend to be unhealthy sooner, so unless you leave them to suffer, some of your paycheck at whatever job you get may go to their health. And last but definitely not least, poorer people tend to stay at home. This is not to say that you shouldn't stay at home, but it does mean that you might start your life later or skip out on your high school diploma because you have to help bring money into the home.

 

This was not my case. I grew up in a middle class home. My mother and I left because my father was violently abusive. She wasn't allowed to work while married. So with a teachers degree that was 14 years out of date, and no job history she had to support us both. We are still digging ourselves out of that financial hole and its been 8 years, 5 since I turned 18. She has bipolar disorder, PTSD, anxiety and quiet possibly autism. I have PTSD, anxiety, depression, and probably autism. I am strong, I am determined, and stubborn and you better believe I work my hardest every day. But it shouldn't have been this hard, it just shouldn't. It shouldn't still be this hard.

 

That is the problem with being poor in America.

 

Not that it exists, not that it sucks. But that getting out of it is just too hard.

One of my favorite quotes from The West Wing: "It should be hard. I like that it's hard... But it should be a little easier. Just a little easier. 'Cause in that difference is... everything.

[Evren]

On 4/8/2019 at 8:17 PM, The Phage Mage said:

You are right about CEOs. They don't always put money back in, but they often didn't have much at first either, especially if they founded the company. And since most start-up businesses fail and go bankrupt for a variety of reasons, most of them lose everything. Usually there's a reason why they save their wealth, not just for the press, but for ensuring the same financial security to their families that they didn't have. Apple started in a garage, Windows by a clever but broke college student. It can be done. Most of us won't though because of the risk involved. Part 2 will cone after I drive home. I have ice in the car...

I am fine with them keeping their money, too. It's their money, they earned it. I was just trying to say that as a way to fix the economy its not great, because your relying on these really rich people to be better than the average person, and they have no reason too.

[Guest]

44 minutes ago, uhtred said:

One thing to keep in mind i that despite our best efforts, half of people are below median in abilities...What you suggest above works for the talented, ambitions people, but there are a lot of people not like that. 

I've throroughy considered ambition and ability. I've got this weird genetic disease, hEDS. While a less severe form of EDS, it still sucks. Aside from physical weakness and hypermobility, it causes mental disability, primarily anxiety, depression, and ADD/ADHD. It affects my thinking a LOT. Not just in the looming threats it poses, but in confidence. I lack ambition most of the time, even on the rare occasion I don't feel like taking a nap. I know I'm doomed to medical problems galore throughout my life; early arthritis (like at 35 or 40), torn ligaments, stomach ailments, hernias, unexplainable cramps and pains, and this is the mild one. Some can die at any given point because their organs or major blood vessels rupture.

 

Wait, Phage, what does this have to do with anything? It's superficial at best and you're only one example.

 

I know this probably doesn't mean a lot to you. I know there are far worse things than what I have. But I'm not normal at all. My body is going to hell in a handbag, and here I am saying that it can be done. Despite being physically inadept, scrawny, and weak since I was very young, I'm proud to have achieved my 2nd degree black belt in Shorin-Ryu Karate. But you're right, little self-doubting voice. For citing other examples, how about the paralympics, where every athlete defies the obstacles in their paths to play sports that they love? or how, despite the blatant sexism at the time, female scientists like Marie Curie, Lise Meitner, Rosalind Franklin, Ada Lovelace, and countless others all pushed beyond what everyone thought they could and should do. They could have complied with what was set in front of them, but they didn't. Instead, with some wits and a strong soul, they changed the world forever. What about the neurosurgeon, Ben Carson? He worked up from poverty. It's takes heart and courage to do something, no matter how big or small. It doesn't matter what obstacles you have. I keep saying this and I will to the end of time. Obstacles. Do. Not. Matter. If you have any belief that you can do something or be something better, go for it full force.

 

As for lacking that ambition, oh boy that's a familiar feeling. I still don't see that as a valid excuse. It's crappy, but honestly, you gotta buck up and deal with it. Even if life is meaningless to you, you're still affecting other people more than you'll know. I'm not saying this as a motivational speaker sort of deal, but as a fact. I know this one from experience as well, but enough of making myself sound like a sad sack in this post! It's so easy to succumb to excuses (not everything, of course, is an excuse, but a lot of it is). However, the most successful people in life don't make any excuses; they let mistakes drive them forward and they stop holding back. 

[uhtred]

47 minutes ago, The Phage Mage said:

I've throroughy considered ambition and ability. I've got this weird genetic disease, hEDS. While a less severe form of EDS, it still sucks. Aside from physical weakness and hypermobility, it causes mental disability, primarily anxiety, depression, and ADD/ADHD. It affects my thinking a LOT. Not just in the looming threats it poses, but in confidence. I lack ambition most of the time, even on the rare occasion I don't feel like taking a nap. I know I'm doomed to medical problems galore throughout my life; early arthritis (like at 35 or 40), torn ligaments, stomach ailments, hernias, unexplainable cramps and pains, and this is the mild one. Some can die at any given point because their organs or major blood vessels rupture.

 

Wait, Phage, what does this have to do with anything? It's superficial at best and you're only one example.

 

I know this probably doesn't mean a lot to you. I know there are far worse things than what I have. But I'm not normal at all. My body is going to hell in a handbag, and here I am saying that it can be done. Despite being physically inadept, scrawny, and weak since I was very young, I'm proud to have achieved my 2nd degree black belt in Shorin-Ryu Karate. But you're right, little self-doubting voice. For citing other examples, how about the paralympics, where every athlete defies the obstacles in their paths to play sports that they love? or how, despite the blatant sexism at the time, female scientists like Marie Curie, Lise Meitner, Rosalind Franklin, Ada Lovelace, and countless others all pushed beyond what everyone thought they could and should do. They could have complied with what was set in front of them, but they didn't. Instead, with some wits and a strong soul, they changed the world forever. What about the neurosurgeon, Ben Carson? He worked up from poverty. It's takes heart and courage to do something, no matter how big or small. It doesn't matter what obstacles you have. I keep saying this and I will to the end of time. Obstacles. Do. Not. Matter. If you have any belief that you can do something or be something better, go for it full force.

 

As for lacking that ambition, oh boy that's a familiar feeling. I still don't see that as a valid excuse. It's crappy, but honestly, you gotta buck up and deal with it. Even if life is meaningless to you, you're still affecting other people more than you'll know. I'm not saying this as a motivational speaker sort of deal, but as a fact. I know this one from experience as well, but enough of making myself sound like a sad sack in this post! It's so easy to succumb to excuses (not everything, of course, is an excuse, but a lot of it is). However, the most successful people in life don't make any excuses; they let mistakes drive them forward and they stop holding back. 

You may have some issues, but if you are succeeding than you have other compensating abilities (which may just be a desire to succeed).   Unfortunately there are a fair number of people who just don't really have anything going for them in the job market.   I don't want them starving on the streets, so I think we need a system that helps them work, even if it isn't economically optimal. 

 

Economic optimal is probably to execute anyone who hasn't had a job in 2 years....

[Alawyn-Aebt]

2 hours ago, uhtred said:

Economic optimal is probably to execute anyone who hasn't had a job in 2 years....

I really don't think that would even be economically optimal. GDP grows by either increasing labor force, or by increasing productivity (usually now technology-centered). There are some minor things, but those are the two big ones, everything else that grows GDP fits into there. Europe was reaching a point were all their economic growth was caused by increasing productivity, since they had a shrinking or stable population meaning the labor force wasn't really growing. The USA also runs this risk if we halted all immigration as some extremists have called for. However technology does not increase in a steady fashion, it goes in sudden shifts before it slows again. It never stops, but it is not a continuous exponential growth. Technological improvements have gotten the economy so far, however if the pace of technological advancement slows from its present breakneck speed, without an increasing labor force economic growth could grind to a halt.

 

Because of that every unemployed person is a failure of the economy to be efficient. The economy can get stuck in a sub-par macroeconomic equilibrium, those unemployed are a direct realization of that sub-par equilibrium. They are not necessarily a drain on the economy, but rather an underutilized tool.

[Knight of Cydonia]

Out of the 33 developed countries, 32 have universal healthcare since 1995 at latest. 24 years later, the United States is still the LONE exception. In the WHO 2000 rankings of health care by country (the last time they did a survey of that scope), 80% of those developed universal healthcare countries ranked better than the US, the top spot being taken by France. The US was ranked 37th in "overall health system performance" yet 1st in "health expenditure per capita".

 

There are three kinds of universal healthcare (single payer, two-tier, and insurance mandate) with varying levels of government control and access to private insurance options. I obviously can't say which is the best for the US of the three, but I firmly believe that some form of universal healthcare is absolutely the right call.

 

Quote

I do not expect it to be a guarantee, but I believe everyone SHOULD have healthcare. That often means healthcare through jobs and not being just given to you.

Employer-sponsored health insurance has so many problems... without going into too much detail, there's a huge issue of inequity: higher-paid workers get much better benefits than lower-paid and part-time employees. Some low wage workers aren't even offered health benefits! There's also difference in tax rates - lower-income workers who don't earn enough to have to pay income tax don't get any tax benefit from employer-sponsored health insurance.

 

It also discourages people from changing jobs, starting their own business, reducing their hours (to care for family members, for example), and retiring early. It's a very real issue known as "job lock", and reduces labour mobility. Some employers might refuse to hire someone with a pre-existing medical condition because it could push company premiums. And employer-sponsored health insurance usually doesn't cover everything anyways, especially for lower wage workers.

 

There's also the issue of fragmentation, which is a problem of the US healthcare system as a whole. There is a misalignment of incentives, or lack of coordination, that spawns inefficient allocation of resources. Fragmentation adversely impacts quality, cost, and outcomes. This policy brief from Brandeis university summarizes it well: "The US health care delivery system is expensive, fragmented, highly decentralized, and poorly organized . . . made up of a fragmented network of public and private financing, health care delivery, and quality assurance structures. There is no single national entity or set of policies guiding the health care system. States divide their responsibilities among multiple agencies, and providers who practice in the same community and care for the same patients often work independently from one another. The US health system is the most expensive system in the world and yet health outcomes and quality are no better and often worse than in most developed nations."