No Clue what to do...

[Chiaroscuro]

Well, that's great! Ultimately every relationship requires accomodation of one sort or another. I'm glad you've found something that works for you.

-Chiaroscuro

[ghosts]

Yeah! It's pretty cool. :D

[Kallan]

Don't worry not the biblical kind.

Susieblue, I feel a great deal of empathy for you and what you're going through. It is very clear to me that your first post was a matter of venting your frustration at not understanding. Your subsequent posts have demonstrated a rare and admirable devotion to your husband.

I will admit that some of the comments made here have raised my blood presure a bit, but I do not blame you for this at all. It's nobody's fault.

One thing I have not seen here is an extended example of an asexual whose position in a relationship you could Identify with. I believe my story will be able to do that for you.

I was in a relationship with a woman I loved very deeply, however she had a very strong sex drive. I am asexual. I find no intimacy in the act of sex, in fact I find that whenever I do have sex with someone it creates a rift in the intimacy between us.

I was willing to compromise from the begining, having sex once a week. I didn't like the way I felt afterwards, but by the next day it would be fine. She began wanting more and more sex, and she made me feel guilty about wanting physical contact (kisses, cuddling, nuzzeling) but not wanting sex afterward. She said that it was unfair to her to have those things but not have sex. We started having sex more often. It made me feel terrible, but I had grown emotionaly dependent on her so I did it anyway.

In this way she held all the power in the relationship because she was the one who controlled the emotional connection that I felt I needed. (sound familiar?)

Eventually it got to the point where she wouldn't engage in any kind of intimacy unless it led to sex. I did it because I felt like I needed her, but I wound up hating myself I felt

empty, alone, depressed, ugly, overseen, ignored, desperate and most of all very very lonely

Eventually the relationship failed because my partner honestly did not care about what I was going through. From what you have said this does not sound like what your situation is, but if it is get out. Get out now.

We sexuals are able to give up the pure sexact, but not the emotions that come with having sex with a loved one...

asexuals can not give up the emotions of love, intimacy, and human closeness either. The difference is that for us (or at least many of us, myself included) is that the act itself pulls those feelings away from us.

If you DO NOT desire sex with your husband/wife/SO, it DOES mean that YOU ARE pushing him/her away. At least it feels like that to the sexual in the relationship

Important distinction to make here. feels that way to you. From the reverse perspective. To an asexual person, If you DO desire sex with your husband/wife/SO, it DOES mean that YOU ARE pushing him/her away. At least it feels like that to the asexual in the relationship.

That's all I have to say in this post. Once again I would like to commend you for the love and devotion that you have shown to this relationship in the face of such a confusing and frustrating situation. I really hope that you and your husband are able to work things out.

I am available on Aol Instant Messenger [AIM] my screen name is Neokcaine. Feel free to contact me anytime I'm online, I would love to help you, and to have a sexual person who has experienced a relationship similiar to one i've had.

[Kallan]

I understand why tempers and bloodpresures are running a little high on this thread. Mine are too. We come to this site looking for a place to feel safe and understood, and when it feels like someone is breaking that we feel vulnerable and angry.

Still I have noticed a general hostility toward sexuals here, particularly directed at susieblue. Please try to remember that she is just as frustrated and confused as we are, or were (particularly in relationships with sexual individuals). Many of us are young, and so her frustration is compounded by spending 20 years in this kind of relationship.

I don't intend to justify any gross generalisations or insensitivity she herself has displayed. However she will be more receptive to our explanations if they are done non-confrontationaly and rationaly.

If you can't do that for her, then please try to do it for her asexual husband, who I would imagine has as much of an intrest in healing the relationship as she does.

[Chiaroscuro]

I don't intend to justify any gross generalisations or insensitivity she herself has displayed. However she will be more receptive to our explanations if they are done non-confrontationaly and rationaly.

Well said, Kallan. All of us here have felt injured in some way: sexuals by their partner's "bizarre" behavior, asexuals by an unfeeling, unsympathetic society. One of the reasons I find Aven so wonderful is that it's not just the choir preaching to the choir. I enjoy the Sexless Marriage site I'm on, but after a while, having everyone repeating "you're so right! it's not your fault!" begins to feel like you're only getting half the story. Aven allows me to hear and hopefully come to understand what the other side of the street is feeling. I find that much more instructive.

Your asexual version of Susieblue's relationship is fascinating. It reiterates why the sexual/asexual disconnect is so profound... we truly see the world in different ways. I can't think of a parallel at the moment. Perhaps if both partners were fundamentalists in different religions?

-Chiaroscuro

[susieblue]

Kallan: thanks so much for your thoughts and your compassion. Thank you for taking the time to answer many of my questions. You gave me some claryfication.

Lately I've been trying to figure out how I've made him feel all these years with accusing him to not love me, not desire me and all that me-me-me stuff.... remembering situations where we talked, and had sex. Trying to see with his eyes. It's hard, but you made it a little clearer for me.

Eventually the relationship failed because my partner honestly did not care about what I was going through. From what you have said this does not sound like what your situation is, but if it is get out. Get out now.

He promised to be open and talk to me about every feeling that he is feeling. He is the type of person that avoids discussions. All I want is for him to open up to me. I am trying to make him comfortable to talk to me. But he said that this shames him, makes him feel less of a man, and he feels that he is not able to "fix" this, therefore he will not initiate any talks about it. I would love for him to "get over" that embarrassment, and just tell me about his inner strife. I need a decision. If he feels uncomfortable having sex with me, I want him to tell me that. I want him to stop doing things for me, and start doing things for himself. (I can't belive I just wrote that)......

asexuals can not give up the emotions of love, intimacy, and human closeness either. The difference is that for us (or at least many of us, myself included) is that the act itself pulls those feelings away from us.

You know, that is so much like him: After sex he is very withdrawn and I get the feel it's "dirty" to him, or what he just did was wrong. I don't want to project your situation on to him now, but I am sure he is going through something after we had sex, that is not a "normal" behaviour. I have never said anything, since it was just a hint of an uncomfortable feeling I had, and I thought it was because of me. Ooops, there goes another burden off my shoulders....

From the reverse perspective. To an asexual person, If you DO desire sex with your husband/wife/SO, it DOES mean that YOU ARE pushing him/her away. At least it feels like that to the asexual in the relationship.

I never knew it could be like that. I wonder if he feels that way. If he does, I wonder why he never said anything. Did you tell your partner at the time how you felt?

If you can't do that for her, then please try to do it for her asexual husband, who I would imagine has as much of an intrest in healing the relationship as she does.

I am pretty sure he's reading up on my posts. He said he's been reading a lot on AVEN. I am wondering if he would ever register here. I think he's not brave enough. I assume communicating in this forum is easier for him than talking. He is a great writer. I love his letters...........

Everything I've posted is all about me and how I feel.

I want to know how he feels.

[Chiaroscuro]

I assume communicating in this forum is easier for him than talking. He is a great writer. I love his letters...........

If you're reading this, Susie-blue's-husband, please do decide to post! Even if you don't identify yourself as her husband here, I think it will help you and Susie understand one another better.

Aven is a "safe" place to discuss things that can become hurtful or personal when discussed with your spouse directly. And it's nice to feel that your partner honestly would like to understand where you're coming from. And it's cheaper than couples-therapy :lol:

-Chiaroscuro

[Kallan]

I never knew it could be like that. I wonder if he feels that way. If he does, I wonder why he never said anything. Did you tell your partner at the time how you felt?

I didn't with my first couple of partners because I felt guilty. I felt that there was something wrong with me and I didn't want to make them feel inadequet. With the partner I mentioned I did mention it once, and she was very critical of me. She fed into the idea that there was something wrong with me. All in all that was a very unhealthy relationship that I'm glad to be rid of.

After that I haven't had any real serious relationship untill the last 4 months. In my current relationship the subject of sex and sexuality has never come up. She's never had a boyfriend before and we both want to take things slow. I think she's probably unsure about her sexuality. She's been out of the country for a couple of weeks, when she ges back I think I'll point her to AVEN.

[scorpion]

I've tried a therapist a little while ago, but felt really uncomfortabel. He was more focused on me then on my husbands problem. He told me that I needed to change my actions in order for my husband to change. He suggested a lover. Never mentioning asexuality could be the cause.

I want so desperately to make things work out. But I am also realistic enough to know that I won't be able to.

The therapist cannot help your husbands' "problem" if he is not there. If you went for you then you are the one he can help. Besides, this "problem" is not your husbands' exclusively. It belongs to BOTH of you since it affects both of you. So many therapists haven't a clue about asexuality yet...they tried up until maybe 15 years ago to "cure" people of homosexuality. I wish you luck and hope for the best!

Scorpion

[scorpion]

All those years I was hoping for something to change for the better, now I come to realise that nothing will ever change. What made it worse for me, is knowing that he actually for real does not get any physical pleasure when he's having sex with me.

He want's me to compromise. He wants me to understand. He said he understands my frustration, and it hurts him deeply to see me suffer like that.

He said in order for me to have sex with him I have to initiate it, since he does not know how, and he is not motivated to do so. How can I? Knowing he will not have any physical pleasure with me? (I am repeating myself)

He admitted that his physical pleasure increases when he is taking Viagra.Where does that fit in?

(((((susieblue))))) Some hugs for you! (those I can give freely as I'm sure they will never be taken as a sexual advance)

Please try not to take his lack of pleasure personally...it's not you! It's the whole act to him-wouldn't matter who he was with.

Don't understand about the Viagra part...perhaps ask his doctor?

This is very frustrating to all involved. I know all too well about that. Look at the bright side-there was a breakthrough! He came on the site and is veginning to realize that he is not the only one. You both can come here any time for support.

Scorpion

[scorpion]

If you DO NOT desire sex with your husband/wife/SO, it DOES mean that YOU ARE pushing him/her away. At least it feels like that to the sexual in the relationship. That is the best explaination I can give you. Everybody sexual will agree with me on that.

You want a sexual wife to accept her husband's asexuality. Well, I am not and I most certainly never will. Because I will be in the Psychiatric Hospital if I do.

I know and see my husband loves me, he is expressing it every day. My mom does too, so my brothers, my friends, even my dog. There is a difference, with the one you have sex with. It's closer, more nuturing. It's like creating a string from one soul to the other. A connection, a soul connection, that is something you will never experience if you never have sex with somebody you love. I am talking about MAKING LOVE. You MAKE love with your soul mate, and not with your mother, friends.......

This paragraph is exactly what the difference is between sexual/asexual. You as a sexual seem to need sex to create a connection with someone you love. You seem to feel closer with sex. You seem to feel that having sex is making love. All this is fine from your viewpoint-the viewpoint of a sexual person. I accept that.

I. as an asexual do not feel closer with sex. I feel the wedge it drives into the relationship. I need an intense emotional connection BEFORE any sex is introduced-one so strong that it can stand up to the huge wedge. I have a connection just like what I am describing with someone I've known for years and I never want to ruin it with sex. To me, "making love" is everything 2 people do for each other that may or may not include or lead up to sex. I feel soooooo fulfilled just laying next to the one I love holding him all night. It has NEVER led to sex. I certainly don't want to ruin that! Sex is just that-sex. One can have sex with anybody. Making love is on a whole different plateau. I have never felt that lovemaking HAD to include sex. By the way...the love I am speaking of is my soulmate.

I do hope you can try to understand my viewpoint...even though I'm on the other side of the mountain. 8)

Scorpion

[scorpion]

Here is something I found on the net:

What kind of underlying problems might some asexuals have -- and what kind of "help" could they be missing out on? Well, no one's leaping to the conclusion that they need some sort of creepy reprogramming ; nor is there -- yet -- some sort of quick-fix libido pill. And, of course, a given individual's asexuality may not have one single simple-to-identify cause. But there are some areas an expert would begin to investigate right way. For one thing, endocrine testing might, in some cases, reveal low levels of androgens (such as testosterone), which could diminish sex drive -- and could, in theory, be addressed with hormone replacement therapy. Some might have a chronic anxiety disorder that, in effect, causes so many thoughts to whirl in their heads that there's no room left for sex. (In this case, anxiety medication might be part of treatment, but that would be to lessen the distractions from sex, not to restore the drive itself.) Others might have mild or undiagnosed cases of syndromes such as Asperger's, which can make them uncomfortable with all manner of personal contact.

Sexual short circuits can also be caused by childhood trauma -- which, experts say, is often much more subtle than a specific experience of sexual abuse, or even, say, a parent's warning that masturbators go blind, then to hell. "Becoming a sexual human being is a long and subtle process and many things must go right in one's family of origin for the child to connect sexuality and love," says Aline Zoldbrod. "I have had several patients who came into treatment asexual, completely confused, because they came from 'good' families. But on closer examination, it turned out that certain necessary ingredients were missing: these patients got good care in practical ways -- they were fed, clothed, sent to school -- but they were not touched lovingly by their parents at all. They simply had never experienced physical pleasure in their bodies that they linked to the emotional pleasure of being in a relationship."

This whole thing is very damaging to the whole concept of asexuality. I especially like the part about connecting love and sexuality. Why on earth would I WANT to connect the two? This would mean that I, as an asexual, am totally incapable of love. Utter nonsense! Without the incumbrances of sex, I can love very deeply and freely.

It also implies that asexuality is caused by either neglect or trauma. It also assumes that asexuality has something to do with low or non-existant libido. It has nothing to do with sex drive. It has to do with sexual attraction. One can be sexually attracted to someone and yet not have the drive to act on. And, it only becomes a "fixable problem" if it causes distress to the person who owns it.

This is JMHO

Scorpoin

[scorpion]

It's like creating a string from one soul to the other. A connection, a soul connection, that is something you will never experience if you never have sex with somebody you love. I am talking about MAKING LOVE. You MAKE love with your soul mate, and not with your mother, friends.......

All I can add is that I have had that kind of connection with someone. The string between the souls, love so powerful it makes the rest of the world look like a painting of itself, everlasting kind of love. And we didn't have sex. (Okay, yes we eventaully parted because of the lack of sex, but the bond remains completely intact between us today)

I don't think you have to make love with your soulmate.

I think you make love with your soul, mate.

The the body is actually not the necessary ingredient.

That said, I hear your frustration and confusion and I wish you all the best. You're being honest and standing by your needs, and that's admirable. I suspect your husband is doing the same. Maybe no one is to blame, or in need of justification. I also hope you're still kicking around this site, and finding what you need here.

My sentiments exactly!

Scorpion

[scorpion]

I read about half the posts on this topic, and of course this question is for the two "sexual" people here. Would you rather they pretend and go through the motions of sex? I don't think there is a right or wrong answer here, just something to consider. Would you feel sexually/intimately satisfied if you knew they were going through the motions just for you? Fortunately, I think I have gotten pretty good at faking enjoying sex, but I dread when I'm laying there in bed and I can tell that he is horny (which is all the damn time). So I usually give in, if I don't, he'll just keep bugging me, so yeah, I give in to save time, and fake all the oohhs and aahhs everything else that goes along with sex.

Omagosh!!! This was just too funny the way you stated it! I totally understand what you are going through. But for your own sanity, please tell him. I did it too (only not as dramatic) and although I did try to explain as time went along, we ended up having a big blowout over it. I told him if it was so important to him to go out and get himself a girlfriend. He brokr down and cried telling me that it was ME he wanted-not so much the sex. I then told him I would help him find one to take the pressure off me. That was about 8 years ago. I had to stop fooling myself...you can figure out the rest.

Scorpion

[Melly06]

susieblue,

Welcome to AVEN.

Sorry to hear about what you've been going through; it does sound as if that would be a really difficult, frustrating situation to be in.

I don't think there's anything wrong with you. There's nothing wrong with wanting a "normal" sexual relationship with one's spouse. There's even something in the bible that says spouses should not deprive each other. This is in the evermost famous 1 Corinthians 7. In the same chapter, it talks about how some people have the gift of marriage whereas others have the gift of singleness (otherwise known as celibacy, though it could also refer to asexuals, I think, and to people who don't really desire marriage or a sexual relationship).

Unfortunately, I don't have any great suggestions. I knew someone, a friend of sorts, who was always saying that you can't fit a square peg into a round hole and who firmly believed in letting people be who they are. It can be hard sometimes. I had a good male friend who was often pressuring me to be someone I'm not, and it was just very oppressive and frustrating for me.

I really don't know what might be best for you and your husband. The situation sounds as if it's not really fair for you.

Naja, alles gute. Ich wohnte damals als Kind mal in Deutschland. Mein Deutsch ist nicht mehr sehr gut, aber ich versuche es wenigstens manchmal zu üben.

[P.V.P.]

Here is something I found on the net:

What kind of underlying problems might some asexuals have -- and what kind of "help" could they be missing out on? Well, no one's leaping to the conclusion that they need some sort of creepy reprogramming ; nor is there -- yet -- some sort of quick-fix libido pill. And, of course, a given individual's asexuality may not have one single simple-to-identify cause. But there are some areas an expert would begin to investigate right way. For one thing, endocrine testing might, in some cases, reveal low levels of androgens (such as testosterone), which could diminish sex drive -- and could, in theory, be addressed with hormone replacement therapy. Some might have a chronic anxiety disorder that, in effect, causes so many thoughts to whirl in their heads that there's no room left for sex. (In this case, anxiety medication might be part of treatment, but that would be to lessen the distractions from sex, not to restore the drive itself.) Others might have mild or undiagnosed cases of syndromes such as Asperger's, which can make them uncomfortable with all manner of personal contact.

Sexual short circuits can also be caused by childhood trauma -- which, experts say, is often much more subtle than a specific experience of sexual abuse, or even, say, a parent's warning that masturbators go blind, then to hell. "Becoming a sexual human being is a long and subtle process and many things must go right in one's family of origin for the child to connect sexuality and love," says Aline Zoldbrod. "I have had several patients who came into treatment asexual, completely confused, because they came from 'good' families. But on closer examination, it turned out that certain necessary ingredients were missing: these patients got good care in practical ways -- they were fed, clothed, sent to school -- but they were not touched lovingly by their parents at all. They simply had never experienced physical pleasure in their bodies that they linked to the emotional pleasure of being in a relationship."

This whole thing is very damaging to the whole concept of asexuality. I especially like the part about connecting love and sexuality. Why on earth would I WANT to connect the two? This would mean that I, as an asexual, am totally incapable of love. Utter nonsense! Without the incumbrances of sex, I can love very deeply and freely.

It also implies that asexuality is caused by either neglect or trauma. It also assumes that asexuality has something to do with low or non-existant libido. It has nothing to do with sex drive. It has to do with sexual attraction. One can be sexually attracted to someone and yet not have the drive to act on. And, it only becomes a "fixable problem" if it causes distress to the person who owns it.

This is JMHO

The best guess I can make as to how most people come to associate love and sex is that they feel physically and emotionally excited around their first crushes and SO's and naturally want to heighten that, and sex is a natural way to do that for them. I find it hard to imagine sex as having this special privileged power to heighten love that nothing else has, though. And I find it easy to imagine it being a disappointment, failing to live up to the hype and make itself worth all the trouble I went through to prepare for it.

I got hugs and kisses as a kid, although I didn't like the hugs 'til I was older or the kisses ever, and there are plenty of people on here who enjoy almost any form of physical affection besides sex. I discovered sexual arousal and gratification and the emotional excitement of crushes at very different times, but I've talked to practicing sexuals for whom this is true. And I read in another thread that many sexual abuse victims actually end up promiscuous. So the separation of love and sex in time or situation at some point in childhood, due to trauma or simply discovering the capacities of one's body early, is neither necessary nor sufficient to explain why someone wouldn't desire sexual relationships.

Though the official stance here is that asexuality isn't about sex drive, and that you can even have fantasies as long as they're well removed from reality, I've felt kind of out-of-place here at times becuase I'm surrounded by so many people who don't have libidos or dirty minds. So many things in the "you might be an asexual if..." thread involved people almost never thinking about sex. That's so not me...I'm completely plain vanilla sexual in terms of libido and capacity for raunchy humor. Where I diverge from the general population is a lack of desire for sexual *relationships.* But I'm not sure if I'm a natural autosexual/asexual, or if my intimacy/closeness/romance drive is just so low that I just never get to the point where I'd want sex even though that point exists. (A couple sexuals I've talked to have said that for them, it's about a desire to know and enjoy and celebrate someone all the way through, to fully experience them...I don't relate to that desire.) Either way, I see sexual relationships as a completely optional way of relating to people, and don't want one anytime soon, and nobody can convince me otherwise.

[Chiaroscuro]

(A couple sexuals I've talked to have said that for them, it's about a desire to know and enjoy and celebrate someone all the way through, to fully experience them...I don't relate to that desire.) Either way, I see sexual relationships as a completely optional way of relating to people, and don't want one anytime soon, and nobody can convince me otherwise.

Hi PVP,

Your observations are excellent. Of course you can have very intense, loving relationships without sex. I love my children so hard it hurts. I'd die for them. There's no relationship I can think of that's stronger than that. So sex isn't a precondition for a loving relationship (though that's something that most sexuals feel when first thinking about the issue... I know I did).

A sexual relationship (loving or casual), is simply a UNIQUE relationship. It's the only kind of relationship in which some enormous social taboos are allowed to drop. For sexual folks, the idea that you can't bypass those taboos with your mate (the one relationship which bypassing those taboos usually defines), leaves them feeling bereft. There's a whole realm of human experience and acceptance that's lost without sexual intimacy. Of course there are folks for whom that realm holds no charm, but for those of us who want to go there, and can't, it feels like losing a part of your humanity.

Hope that helps. I know it's all confusing... :?

-Chiaroscuro

[P.V.P.]

A sexual relationship (loving or casual), is simply a UNIQUE relationship. It's the only kind of relationship in which some enormous social taboos are allowed to drop. For sexual folks, the idea that you can't bypass those taboos with your mate (the one relationship which bypassing those taboos usually defines), leaves them feeling bereft. There's a whole realm of human experience and acceptance that's lost without sexual intimacy. Of course there are folks for whom that realm holds no charm, but for those of us who want to go there, and can't, it feels like losing a part of your humanity.

Hope that helps. I know it's all confusing... :?

It does help a lot. I can understand the desire to explore something in detail and depth, to minimize all limitations to what you can understand, to get outside the box. As of yet, though, that just hasn't translated into a desire for a sexual relationship in my case. It's probably because those exploratory desires manifest chiefly in the intellectual realm, where I'm most comfortable, while the realm of physical and emotional communication with other people is not a place I feel comfortable or eager to explore as much.

[Chiaroscuro]

It's probably because those exploratory desires manifest chiefly in the intellectual realm, where I'm most comfortable, while the realm of physical and emotional communication with other people is not a place I feel comfortable or eager to explore as much.

That makes a lot of sense. Ultimately, it's not about whether one way of being is better than the other. It's when two romantically attached people aren't sure about what they want that things get crazy. And in my case, once those people are married and have children... well... extra crazy.

-Chiaroscuro

[k9trainer]

="susieblue"]I feel like a fool, sitting here in front of my monitor and waiting for replies. Like someone is going to tell me what to do, and all will be good.

Can I go on living like that? My first instinct is: NO, because I don't want to anymore.

I am at a stage in my life right now, where I need a change. My responsibilities have shifted towards myself.

I want a fullfilling relationship, where I have the feeling I am not missing out on something. Although I will be missing out on him. I am not sure what to do next. I wish I could talk with him. And I wish he would understand me.

I am the asexual in our marriage. But, I can tell you that he's not trying to hurt you intentionally. It is nothing personal toward you. As far as not even kissing you or holding your hand, I'm afraid to do that with my husband, because I'm afraid that will lead to sex. It sounds selfish, I know. But, sex is something I can't compromise on. Now that I know I am asexual (I didn't for over 30 years), I think we will probably get divorced. I don't expect him to stay with me just because he is in love with me--sex is a big part in any marriage. We had a lot of sex in the beginning (I was usually under the influence of drugs or alcohol), and I'm afraid that is the woman he is in love with.

I would like to talk to somebody face to face, somebody who will help me and guide me, somebody with an experience in these things. I've tried a therapist a little while ago, but felt really uncomfortabel. He was more focused on me then on my husbands problem. He told me that I needed to change my actions in order for my husband to change. He suggested a lover. Never mentioning asexuality could be the cause.

Most therapists won't acknowledge asexuality as even a possibility. It seems to be uncharted territory. I do wish you luck. But, you do need to think about you. I would do what you need to do--FOR YOU. Before you begin to resent your husband even more than you already do. It's better to part before you become enemies and the hate is so strong that you can't even salvage a friendship out of it.

[susieblue]

@ k9trainer:

I feel so sorry for your husband, he was probably questioning himself the last 30 years, and still is.

Imagen what he went through the last 30 !!!! years, imagen how it changed him as a person, imagen how it changed his soul, imagen how low his self esteem is and was, imagen how much you hurt him, I guess you can't imagen that, since you are so busy avoiding situations that will lead to sex. you are so busy to not try to hurt him intentionally, you are so busy making it not personal. You are so busy with yourself.

YOU CAN NOT COMPROMISE ON SEX? BUT EXPECTED YOUR HUSBAND TO COMPROMISE ALL THOSE YEARS?!

We had a lot of sex in the beginning (I was usually under the influence of drugs or alcohol), and I'm afraid that is the woman he is in love with.

Were you on Drugs and/or alcohol the last 30 years? Or why the hell is he still on your side? He loves you dearly, otherwise he would have been gone 20 years ago.... do you understand that? He stayed with you although you hurt him every day, every night! You rejected him every day and every night for the last 30 years, almost 11.000 (eleventhousend!!!!) days and 11.000 nights!

Your excuse of not doing it intentionally just does not cut it..... THAT IS PERSONAL toward your husband.

I am sure you would not treat your dog (if you had one) like that, Could you imagen to not pet and love your pooch or kitty for a lifetime, because you can't compromise?? or you did not know?

Do you see those puppy eyes begging for some loving?

MY GOD, I feel so sorry for your husband!!!!!!!!

Now you don't expect him to stay with you anymore? after you finally found out that you are asexual? makes me sick!

Salvage a friendship? Out of what?

[pickles.]

Oh my goodness. Susieblue, you are very angry with your husband, NOT with k9trainer (my guess is you hardly know her). Please be gentle!

--T

[AndAPickle?]

@ k9trainer:

I feel so sorry for your husband, he was probably questioning himself the last 30 years, and still is.

Imagen what he went through the last 30 !!!! years, imagen how it changed him as a person, imagen how it changed his soul, imagen how low his self esteem is and was, imagen how much you hurt him, I guess you can't imagen that, since you are so busy avoiding situations that will lead to sex. you are so busy to not try to hurt him intentionally, you are so busy making it not personal. You are so busy with yourself.

YOU CAN NOT COMPROMISE ON SEX? BUT EXPECTED YOUR HUSBAND TO COMPROMISE ALL THOSE YEARS?!

We had a lot of sex in the beginning (I was usually under the influence of drugs or alcohol), and I'm afraid that is the woman he is in love with.

Were you on Drugs and/or alcohol the last 30 years? Or why the hell is he still on your side? He loves you dearly, otherwise he would have been gone 20 years ago.... do you understand that? He stayed with you although you hurt him every day, every night! You rejected him every day and every night for the last 30 years, almost 11.000 (eleventhousend!!!!) days and 11.000 nights!

Your excuse of not doing it intentionally just does not cut it..... THAT IS PERSONAL toward your husband.

I am sure you would not treat your dog (if you had one) like that, Could you imagen to not pet and love your pooch or kitty for a lifetime, because you can't compromise?? or you did not know?

Do you see those puppy eyes begging for some loving?

MY GOD, I feel so sorry for your husband!!!!!!!!

Now you don't expect him to stay with you anymore? after you finally found out that you are asexual? makes me sick!

Salvage a friendship? Out of what?

Wow. Just wow.

Any amount of sympathy I had for you and your situation just went right out the window.

[Looking]

Welcome to Aven Suzie, I wish you could have joined us under better circumstances and that this conversation could have gone better too, but with such a topic it's hard to be neutral for anyone.

I'm pretty new to the board myself and I read through your postings and everyone else's and I can't help but be sorry that both sides have so much trouble understanding the others, but I can see why it's so difficult. I think you and most of those who have responded so vehemently have been very hurt by their opposite in a relationship wheather it is the asexual or the sexual partner speaking. Especially when we've been hurt it is extremely difficult to see things from another's point of view. I suggest to everyone who posts here that you try and calm down and reread your post before posting it, words can hurt both sides if they're not chosen carefully and especially angry words won't help anyone understand anything, it will only lead to more angry words and less understanding and that's true on both sides of the arguement.

I have been lucky or blessed enough depending on how you look at it, to withdraw from a relationship before it leads to marriage, though at the times I had no idea why I was instinctively withdrawing. I'm very glad to hear that your husband has been opening up to you Suzie, I would say that's definitly a positive step and I hope things continue to be positive, things can't have been easy for you over the last 20 years, especially because you are a sexual person and you are desperately wanting to express your love in a way that means something deeply intimate to you. I respect you for staying with your husband and for staying faithful to him and I'm sure that it couldn't have been easy for you in any sense. I'm also glad that you're looking for answers and ways to fix it instead of simply trying to dump him and move on without a second thought.

You mentioned in a previous post that you found it ironic that your first posts were so heartfelt (you were crying at the time I think you said) and your later posts were where you were feeling more of a distance from your husband and yet the people on the board seemed to think your later posts were more heartfelt. I suspect that when they refered to 'heartfelt' that they meant it was not simply deep hurt seeking release desperately and a little wildly, but something that had been deeply considered and thought about thoroughly over a longer period of time. It doesnt mean your first posts were any less heartfelt, but the later ones are perhaps more clear to the people reading them about what you want and how you feel without the feeling of 'lashing out' if that makes sense? I hope it does, and I hope you dont get the feeling from those comments that 'distancing' yourself makes you more heartfelt to asexuals as I really suspect that is not what they meant to portray at all.

It makes it harder I think, that your husband isn't posting his own opinions here as well, to work out his own issues, but something for everyone to remember on both sides is that the idea of aseuxality isn't something that very many people know about yet. Though it is very, very difficult to understand this when 99% of the population shares your views some lenience should be given to asexuals who dont know what it is, who don't understand it themselves and who when they compare themselves to the rest of the world dont know what's 'wrong' with them, especially as - to the asexual - there is nothing unusual for them to simply not take sex into their everyday interactions with people. This really shouldn't be taken as an insult against you or something meant to hurt you - HOWEVER, having said that, I also recognize that what a person meant to do and how their actions were percieved by you and how those actions affected you may be very, very different things. The best laid plans of mice and men eh?

A very great deal of patience is needed on both sides and I respect that you have waited so very long, hoping that things will work out, but the very first question you have to as yourself, IMHO, is this - do you want to spend the rest of your life with this person?

Considering that you have spent the last 20 odd years with your husband despite the lack of sex that you feel you need in order to be intimate (and let me just state right now there is nothing wrong with needing to be intimate in that way so that we're clear on that) that would suggest to me that you deeply love your husband and truly want to stay with him. So, and you can always come to a different conclusion at a later time, I am going to go on the assumption for the moment that you want to do your best to stay with him.

Open communication lines are important in every relationship, whether hetero, homo, bi, sexual or asexual and that you and your husband have opened this lines is an awesome start! And it does goes both ways, you are trying to understand his side of things, and just as you are trying to understand his side of things, I hope that he is trying to understand yours, and from your posts I get the sense that he is.

The thing about communication is that it is going to be doubly hard for a heterosexual couple dealing with asexual/sexual clashes - the reason I say this is because not only are you both having to deal with the whole sexual/asexual feeling behind the ways you would both express your love and intimacy for each other, but you are also talking to each other from a male/female perspective. This can also cause huge problems in communication because men and women are taught to speak differently from the time they are born to the time they die. This doesn't mean that communication is impossible, but if the differences in the way we speak to each other isn't recognized then it makes it all too easy to wander around in circles, chasing the same conversations with no progress because we just can't understand what the other person is talking about.

An example of this is crying for instance. Often for a woman (and I'll try not to generalize too badly so forgive me if you're an exception to any of this) crying is a way to express emotion and release it in order to better deal with an issue, however, for a man, crying is often something he will only do when there is no other option and he feels as if the world is coming to an end. So when a women cries around other women she will often get the desired response, comfort and an ear to listen to her and make sounds of agreement to help her 'vent'. When a woman cries in front of a man however he would truly, truly want to help her, to make her stop crying, to show her that it doesn't have to be the 'end of the world' so will offer ways to 'fix' what he percieves she is telling him is the problem. When that happens it can lead to hurt feelings on the woman's part, feeling that the man is trying to belittle her feelings or tell her what to do or any number of reactions when he's really just trying to make things better in the only way he knows how, and is also why most men aren't going to cry at the drop of a hat, they're not taught to and don't see a reason to unless they've lost all hope about a situation.

That's just one example of many about how a man and a woman can see ways to communicate in hugely different ways, but I hope it effectively illustrated my point at how different those ways of communication can be. When you then throw in very, very hurt feelings, feelings of inadequacy on both sides, anger, frustration, hopelessness, depression, low self esteem etc, then the discussions are even harder to connect. It's hard enough for men and women to try and speak the same 'language', let alone a sexual and asexual who may not have realized there was a difference until after both had already fallen in love.

The second question needs to be an honest one directed at him and with enough time for him to ponder the question, but is he wanting to spend the rest of his life with you? If the answer is yes on both sides, and it's a very straightforeward question I think, then you've got a very clear answer and a very clear place to start from. You both want this relationship to work. Is that the end? By no means, it will still be work finding ways to make you both happy and satisfied, but it is a starting point, and in order to move foreward and not in circles, a common starting point that is clearly defined is definitly an asset.

So if you both love each other, you're both attempting to communicate, and not only communicate but understand the ways in which you both communicate, what's the problem right? Well lots of things, there's still the sex issue, as well as the last 20 years of pent up feelings and frustrations and that's a lot to deal with all on its own and isn't going to be something that can be easily fixed, but assuming you both want this relationship to work so you can be together for the rest of your lives, then it's something that you both have to learn to work through. So long as you realize that your feelings are not likely to be fixed with one night of passionate lovemaking, and may in fact be worsened if he's just trying to please you and still won't neccessarily want to do it as often as you or even be able to be as intimate with it as you feel you need then again, it's a place to start from.

I am going to ask a very personal question now and you do not have to answer me if you feel that it's something that you're uncomfortable with, as it has to do with his preferences too, so husband if you're reading this and feel bold, we'd love to hear your side of this too and it would help Suzie to maybe understand a little better what the two of you together could do to help the situation.

So first to the husband - and I would ask him this directly, are you simply indifferent to sex that it doesnt arrouse you/fulfill you as it does a sexual person or are you actually repulsed by the act itself and dont' want anything to do with anything sexual? I've read that the hugging/cuddling/perhaps kissing? to some extent is something he seemed okay with, it was the sex itself that has become the problem. If it doesn't repulse you, it just doesnt do anything for you either, then I would ask you - is there anything about her reactions to sex that you like? The look on her face for example when she's feeling good about what you're doing to her, a little moan or twitch? Or even things like (the more squeamish in regards to sex please forgive me) the taste of her mouth or the scent of her skin? Or even the knowledge that what you are doing is not only pleasing her body, but satisfying a need she feels very deeply needs to be fulfilled in order for her to feel that unifying connection? I know there's a LOT of personal questions in this last paragraph but sex isnt just *insert here* right? There's a lot of little things that go into it.

If you're not opposed to touch and being close to Suzie that way then there are other things that you could perhaps do to try and help that connection that Suzie feels she needs but you might not know how to give her. For example - if you have any romantic tendancies (or if you don't, grab a woman's magazine, they can be quite helpful at times and might give you an insight into her mind).

Some examples to extend my suggestion of things to try and please keep in mind I DO NOT GAURUNTEE THAT THESE WILL WORK, they are merely suggestions!! - though I suggest strongly if you DO decide to try these suggestions together to try these things slowly, try not to rush them, and try very hard not to build too many expectations (I know it's hard!). Some examples if you're okay with intimate touching and if you both like this type of thing - A simple massage for instance can be turned into something very intimate in the right situation - even if it doesn't lead to sex. Getting some warming body oils and some scented candles that you both like (no allergies!) and that make you both feel relaxed and just spending the evening together talking quietly about your days and simply having that skin to skin contact with your hands and her body might be a good way to get some of that intimacy back for her as it has that intimate element of touch, without the absolute need to go into full blown sex. And to Suzie - don't force this idea on him if you can help it, the idea with all these suggestions is to try and find a happy place you can both meet to communicate in a way that can satisfy you both.

Another suggestion - take a bubble bath together, don't expect sex, but sit leaning against each other, maybe wash each other with a soft washcloth, but don't push anything, just let it be and enjoy the alone time together. Intimate doesn't have to be sex, often it just needs a way to be close and have some time to yourselves.

If you're both comfortable with this one - let him watch while you masterbate, it might be a little weird for him, particularly as sex doesn't seem to do much he wouldn't neccessarily understand it, but perhaps he could find something about seeing you pleased that makes him happy as well. If this one works out well and you're both open and willing to the idea, maybe let him play with the controls and you just sit back - it's not quite sex on either end, but it would require a lot of trust and may provide some intimate connections for both of you.

Take a mini-vacation, got kids? Send them to a friend's for the weekend, or to your parents or someone who you trust to watch them, find a hotel somewhere close to town thats reasonably priced or just outside of town, often you can find little bed and breakfast places - not your thing? Well if you're more active you can take up a sport together or something, you could go snowboarding or rent a canoe or something if that's more up your alley, but the idea that you're both spending time together doing something that you both enjoy where you can reconnect to each other might be a good idea.

Some other, little things - you can leave notes for each other telling the other person how you feel about them to remind them how much you love them, or make breakfast in bed to eat with the other person, go out to a movie instead of staying in (if you can afford that) and go for that first 'date' all over again.

Be creative and observant. There are hundreds of thousands of ways to tell a person how you feel about them and sex is only one of those ways to show that you're intimately connected to a person. For the two of you, being married so long I could see how it might be even more difficult, you've spent 20 years together! You know everything about each other right? Your lives have a rhythm and a beat all their own and so does your life together, but sometimes close proximity for so long makes some people forget to listen to the beats that made them fall in love with the person in the first place.

Another thing that I'd like to point out is that as you age together, and stay together, there is often a subtle communication that devlops, particuarly if you're willing to put in the effort to learn each other's 'love languages' (which is another topic along the lines of communcation) and stay together no matter what troubles you face, then there's a very good chance that eventually your sex drives would have dropped off anyway! How's that for a kick in the pants?

Now a couple things to clarify about that last one - Suzie, just because you eventually might be okay with not having sex, doesn't mean you want to abstain from it now and I understand that, but I did want to mention that the older you get the more likely it is to drop off anyway, and at that point (as it's different for everyone, some do have it drop of, a few don't) you might find yourself very glad that your husband has asexual tendencies because a man never goes through menopause, his libido technically wouldn't go down either. I in fact know of one couple who - after the wife had menopause - ended up breaking up because she no longer wanted sex but he did. (not the same I know, but an example for how bad a situation like that could be for you as well as him).

I think that if both of you want the relationship to work, and you're both willing to compromise - remember, no sex doesn't neccessarily mean no touching or no intimacy, finding out what he doesn't want or like about sex could be very, very useful - because you both love each other and want to make each other happy, then I see no reason why you can't start healing the wounds in your relationship.

Yes, it will likely be slow. It will likely be hard. And it will likely not always work the way you might want it to, but I truly do believe that there are ways to be intimate in such a way that satisfies you both if you are both willing, and that's the most important part.

I won't lie and say that these suggestions would work for anyone, some people who claim the label asexual for themselves profess to disliking touch in any form and for them even the things I suggest would be very, very difficult and in some cases - as hard as it might be - splitting up may very well be the best decision and is something to be very, very carefully considered before a decision is made. It is NOT a decision to be made lightly or while angry and hurt and stil venting.

Try first and foremost to keep open and honest communication, if you don't understand something or think you might be misunderstanding you should both feel alright with asking for a pause to collect your thoughts or calm down, or simply asking the other person to rephrase it, telling them you're not sure what they mean and telling them what you think they mean might be very helpful but requires very, very careful listening. The angrier and more hurt you are during a conversation the harder it will be to listen.

I hope that some of this might be useful to you and your husband Suzie, I truly wish you the best in whatever your life might throw at you. Be patient, both with yourself and with him (and 20 years, I know you feel you've been patient and HE needs to do all the changing now, but remember that it's a process you BOTH need to go through because the relationship involves you both) and be honest with yourself and with him in what you really want, what fills your needs and ways that you can feel fulfilled, loved and desired and pay attention to each other as well to try and fill those needs.

Two books that I would reccomend - one is a book by Peter Raabe called Philosophical Counceling, there are some chapters on communcation that you might find VERY useful in communicating with each other on a male to female basis. The other book I would reccomend is called "The Five Love Languages" by Gary Chapman. You can get both of those books off of Amazon I think and you might find them both very useful in learning to communicate with each other by learning how the other person has learned to communicate.

Well, now that I've posted this huge post I'm sorry for those who have to wade through it, but I do hope it helps. Welcome again to the site Suzie, though it's a little late from the time this thread started, and I wish both you and your husband the best. If you want me to clarify anything just ask and I'll do my very best to clarify it, and that offer extends to your husband as well, you can either post here or PM me, I'm open to either and will try and get back to you as soon as I can.

[susieblue]

so sorry for being so mean to you k9trainer...

I was so unbelivable sad last night. Things I said to you were directed at my husband (you are right Gwen). If I would have said these words in my husbands face, it would have broken his heart.

The constant ignorance of my husband is killing me. There is no more communication between us, since I am not initiating.

I've sent him a link to your post Stephanie. Thanks for the very thoughtful words. I am sure he will not respond, he's avoiding every situation.

I decided to not have sex with him anymore, and it worked for a few months. I felt I was in control, I wanted to hurt him.

Instead of fixing, I broke even more.

[Looking]

*hugs* I am so sorry that you're feeling so broken Suzie, I do wish that there was something I could give you that would magically fix everything, but there isn't. Just know that we're here for you and we'll try our best, but unless he's willing to meet you halfway then there's only so much you can do as well.

[AndAPickle?]

Trying to hurt someone never fixes anything.

[susieblue]

I am aware that trying to hurt someone never fixes anything.

But I felt I had no choice.

It made me feel to be on the same step as him. In control.

[AndAPickle?]

It made me feel to be on the same step as him. In control.

Next time you feel like you have no choice, try to remember that this step is a step down. Way down.

You always have a choice. Sometimes they aren't really obvious choices, but they're there. The high road is almost always the best choice.

And remember, more than anything, that you can't control other people or their actions. You'll only make yourself crazy trying. The only person you have control over is you. You are in complete control of you and you alone, and ultimately, no one will have to answer for your choices and actions but you. So be prepared to take responsibility.

My only advice for you in regards to you and your husband is to stop playing the blame game. It's sounds like both of you are guilty of it and it doesn't help, trust me. And I don't know what the dialogue between the two of you is like, so if I'm stating something you're aware of, forgive me. But have you tried approching it in a way that clearly shows how you feel (without being angry) and clearly expressing the actions that lead to those feelings and why?

Statements like "When you ______, I feel_____ because ______."

And you said you're husband expresses himself on paper. So do I, and I find that for me, sometimes writing a letter to someone is better than talking to them. It allows me time to collect my thoughts and word things in the way I think best conveys my feelings. Maybe try writing him a letter. Ask him to write a letter to you. That way you can put it all down for the other to see in a way that isn't angry or resentful. Just calmly explaining how you see the situation, the problems you feel are affecting you both, possible solutions - and that's a really important one. If you have a problem to address, try to come up with a few viable solutions and be open to hearing his suggestions.

And please, please, please, stop lashing out. Especially at people here. It's unfair to everyone, including yourself. You're better than that.

[Chiaroscuro]

Hi Susie,

I know how difficult this is for you. I really do. You need to take care of yourself, that's where your sense of control will come from. You can't change other people, all you can do is try to change yourself.

I've been struggling with my marriage much as you have, for a long time now, and I've reached the point where I've started therapy, not (as I thought at first), to deal with my marriage, but to deal with the things in myself that are making me miserable. Once I began taking control of my own problems, seperating them from my conflicts with my wife, I began to see our relationship differently.

For example, I was masturbating, using pornography, as a substitute for my missing sex life. That WAS my sex life. But I realized that it was killing off my sexual awareness... it's such a mindless activity, like plugging yourself into a power source, getting a jolt, and unplugging to go on with your day. I couldn't masturbate without porn... what would I fantasize about? My wife? No, that's long past. Other women in my life? That felt like planning an affair. It created a small crisis for me, and made me realize that I had two choices, really. I could submerge my mind in porn and masturbation or I could leave and find a real physical partner.

I'm not going back to the mindlessness. It took a lot of work to get to that point though. That work was about me, not Sunset, and it's helped me feel more control over my life than I have in a decade.

Hugs,

Chiaroscuro