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RE: ( And the idea of an AVEN ambassador to ASM.)

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5 minutes ago, InquisitivePhilosopher said:

 

It's what's termed as "neurotypical/ableist privilege."

You say this like it is an indisputable law.

 

There is something much bigger at stake here, and again it is prescribing meaning to things where none are meant. There is a VERY good reason people us the phrase "To TAKE offence". I know for a fact that when this person used the words autistic it was not in order to offend autistic people. It was mean as a strong outrage, there is actually a lot more to this story than meets the eye. If the user NOW changes it to "Fucking idiotic", are the calling autistic people "Fucking idiotic" because the phrases are interchangeable., 

 

I know I nor anyone else on ASM would deliberately set out to insult @Skycaptain and this thread is pretty much proving my point that there is a vast division between those who wish to censor everything they TAKE offence at, and those who just read words, and try and use them to understand how another person feels WITHOUT assuming that anything that upsets me was MEANT to upset me. The problem of "Where does it stop", is never. All anyone needs to do is ascribe "offence" to a word, and suddenly people aren't meaning things any more and it's just fine and jolly for this group of people to hate the other group of people. It's strange to me that you guys haven't picked up on the tolerance for being told they are insulting every time they say a thing that was never meant to mean the thing ascribed to it.

 

We all communicate to express emotions, events and ideas. If someone is talking to a group of AVEN members they would if they had any decorum use language that best conveys that meaning and allows for as little ambiguity as possible, there for the will use words and avoid words that have been arbitrarily decided on by AVEN members. I notice no one has addressed why calling someone "Fucking Stupid" is NOT an offence to people with below average intelligence, or in fact how telling someone they are "Cleaver" isn't an abelist, and alitist action that is insulting to anyone with a lower IQ. The reason is simple, and that is that people have arbitrarily decided what it is they wish to accept.. Its the same with the "R" word. Every 10 years, the public starts using the words that psychologists have switched to using as a description of a lacking in mental faculties, and for a while the word is the  word is the PC word for describing them... Usually kids pick up on this, and then start using the word as a derogatory statement. Then when they get to uni, well it all goes a bit mad, and we are back to here... Some have refereed to this as the offence conveyer belt. 

 

So with all that said when something that is said in a space that does NOT ascribe negative meanings to words, it really is just nuts to drag them from that space, pull them in to your own, and then attribute the meaning YOU ascribe to them. It would be a little like dragging "abelist," and intersectional language to ASM and misrepresenting it's meaning there.  

 

The only way there can really be any understanding is if people are willing to overlook certain things for certain groups, a bit like the acceptance of Islam and it's treatment of women. The non politically left are never going to find any peace with anyone else when they keep doing this, and pulling out meaning where NONE was intended.

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G0D

All of this over one word, and a whole group of people is hated because one person said one word you didn't like.

 

You know this site leaves a lot of offensive content up, and just punishes the person who said the thing in private, so If I could ACTUALLY be bothered, I could find a lot that people would get mad about. They are relatively easy to find, because a lot of people got mad about them. 

 

I'm trying to see the world where anyone outside this place looking in would think it a reasonable thing to do to brand a whole group of people as bad, simply because of one thing said in one post, on one thread in one category, on one site. Seems a bit judgemental to me. Then that's not a word AVEN has ever shy'd away from though is it.

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Timeless

Stop using your non-autistic voice to speak over the experiences of autistic people. We are telling you the admins post was offensive to us. You don't get to decide whether something offends us. Your experiences aren't ours.

 

If it sucks to catch hatred because of a word, imagine how it feels to be hated for a condition you didn't choose to have. ie your condition being used as a derogatory descriptor.

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G0D
16 minutes ago, Aris said:

Stop using your non-autistic voice to speak over the experiences of autistic people. We are telling you the admins post was offensive to us. You don't get to decide whether something offends us. Your experiences aren't ours.

 

If it sucks to catch hatred because of a word, imagine how it feels to be hated for a condition you didn't choose to have. ie your condition being used as a derogatory descriptor.

And you are the spokes person for AVEN I see.. Pleased to meet you. Funny thing. This is SOOO meta.. I am ALSO a member of AVEN, have been here a lot longer than I have been on other sites.

 

And why are you assuming that I am non-autistic? That's offensive <grin>.

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G0D
17 minutes ago, Aris said:

Stop using your non-autistic voice to speak over the experiences of autistic people. We are telling you the admins post was offensive to us. You don't get to decide whether something offends us. Your experiences aren't ours.

 

If it sucks to catch hatred because of a word, imagine how it feels to be hated for a condition you didn't choose to have. ie your condition being used as a derogatory descriptor.

Sorry I meant to ask, do you identify as Autistic?

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Janus DarkFox

I'm a diagnosed Autistic, what and wheres the implied insult? there's far worse micro-aggressive behavior out there in the real world.  For everything that I've been diagnosed with, I really cant be offended when such a word aimed at me or as part of staff, member, or anywhere else in particular, or toward being part of specific group.  Many in my position feel in the same way that when being diagnosed at even an early age, one gets used to implied slurs. 

 

I'm older so perhaps it's a generational thing...

 

Spoiler

Being called a slut for being a furry is hilarious as once was a time I managed virtual land lol, the juxtaposition of portraying everything sexuality and gender against an asexual, non-binary reality 😛

 

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LeChat

@Janus DarkFox The key is that the whole post, in general, wasn't a nice, flattering post about groups of others who weren't a part of the ASM Forum; it was criticizing the way other websites were moderating their forums, referring to that as being "Autistic."

 

I guess I should point out that I wasn't officially diagnosed with Autism, that I only was told by my mother when I was in elementary school that doctors diagnosed me as having a "developmental delay," as a toddler, compared to other kids, due to me being born prematurely, under weight, etc., and that that was the reason why I was having a bit of problem learning certain things at school (but that, with time and extra help with learning, I could become developmentally "on time," like other kids.) So, because I eventually worked hard at school to earn "A's" and "B's," earning higher grades than most of my other classmates, my teachers told my parents that they didn't think I needed to attend a school for kids with learning disabilities. I was bullied a lot for being more quiet than other students.

 

I'm just mentioning this to point out that, even though I'm not diagnosed with Autism, I'm still able to understand why some with Autism feel hurt and offended by others' casual use of using Autism as a slur.

 

Yes; although there are worse micro-aggressions in the world, it still doesn't help those with Autism or developmental disabilities to have their condition be used by others as a slur, especially by neurotypical people because it continues to perpetuate the stereotype of those with neuroatypical conditions as being "less than" "not as intelligent," etc. as neurotypical people without Autism. It gives the impression that they don't care about how Autistic people are negatively viewed and/or are possibly continuing to use Autism as a slur because they assume that those with Autism won't be able to intellectually figure out, know, or understand that they/their condition is being used as one. I'm sure neurotypical people wouldn't like it if those with Autism decided to use "neurotypical" as a slur.

 

So, calling out it's use as a harmful, unhelpful slur might help improve Autistic peoples' lives, a little, by dismantling others' negative assumptions, stereotypes, etc., to where others might realize that their words can have negative consequences for others with medical conditions, treated differently by others in real life, jobs, etc. Neuroatypical people have had to put up with being treated as "less than" for years. Just because it's always been that way in society, doesn't mean that they have to continue to be quiet and put up with it.

 

(Here's an example, from a person with Autism, who explains why it's offensive for others to use Autism as a slur...Trigger Warning because he uses the "F" and "R" slurs, as similar examples of using Autism as a slur.)

 

https://anintenseworld.com/2017/08/25/autistic-as-a-slur/

 

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G0D

How offensive . Equating autism with science that's actually aimed at autism, and I know there are a lot of people who hate science, and this also sugests a link. damn... All the other person did was use the word to describe how annoyed he was. 

 

Makes claims about self diagnosing with autism, and that seem ok. This it seems is another thing that people can self diagnose as, and no one is then allowed to question this or it's some form of new and exciting Bigotry, Cool another way that people can hate doctors for their overly offensive ideas about how the body and mind work. Oh The member who said that something was "Autistic"a thing not a person, they have now said that they are themselves VERY autistic, and that it's offensive that others have assumed their mental state, and the meaning of their words in such lazy stereotyping. 

 

 

This person is advocating that you have to be autistic in order to understand someones gender WOW that's so offensive.

 

 

This person is offended that someone else thinks they are autistic thus showing that they view Autism as something negatively.

 

This one is describing their own actions as being "autistic", that IS very offensive to people with Autism, I know because I now identify as Autistic, and it seems like hate speech to me.

 

 

This person is asserting that people with autism cannot hold down a steady job HOW insulting.

 

This person is obviously using the word in a self deprecating manner, and that is so offensive. 

 

 

B laming autism for hypersensitivity to sound that's offenseive. 

 

This person is asking if self diagnosis are acceptable, and insisting that most autistic people have just decided for themselves. shocking.

 

There are 50 pages of things that someone with a desire to misinterpret, or to TAKE offence is able to do so with ease. 

 

Yet the fact that this site hasn't removed things that people could take offence at, and I have said I have taken offence at none of this would make any of you think that AVEN was a hate site. So why because another site's only crime is that there is a single post that you don't like why does that one thing mean that you can extrapolate from there that the site is a hate site? I don't see the word "autistic on the banned words list"  I don''t see people climbing over each other to say any other word, that actually means something similar is some how hate speech. I think we ALL know when we read the offending sentence what the writer intended to say, and not one of us would suggest that the author actually set out to offend, and hate any one.

 

Would it actually be against the rules on AVEN to say "That is autistic"? If so which one? 

 

What would be the point in trying to promote acceptance and understanding with a group that is exactly the same. Or are you really saying that acceptance means they do what you say? Does everyone here think it is a good, and right thing for someone to condone the killing of people simply for drawing a cartoon, and writing "Mohamed" under it? No... So why do you say islam is a religion of peace, and accept the things it does that you don't?

 

This insistence that everyone follow your set of rules, and hold your values, is the perfect demonstration of bigotry in action. It is the assertion that not just that someone should hold an idea, but that even talking about it is a reason that hate can be felt. Its the ideology that is what I was and am trying to help foster understanding in, not one word said by one person. Fine, insist the person means something they clearly don't but to use that as a reason to hate a whole group of people really is bigotry on such a level I am shocked how you cant see it. 

 

If one Muslim commits an act of terror, The first thing that is said is "not all muslims, and the like. I didn't say that ASM was a religion of peace ro be flippant I actually meant it (well not the religious part). so if you can read the message where I write that at the end, but your answer is that "One person said something bad", and I hate the site because of that things I really cannot see the difference in that hate, and the "hate"people feel about islam after a terror attack". The ONLY difference is that one of them just killed people, and one of them used a word you don't like, but hey, keep telling yourself that your mortally superior. 

 

( the word "YOU" in this post is referring to the group as a whole and not any individual member of the group.

 

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Timeless

The difference between the admin's slur and the posts you quoted were that all of the people there were describing their own experiences. The admin on that site is delibrately using it in a disparaging way against other people. You couldn't get a much bigger difference.

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G0D
31 minutes ago, InquisitivePhilosopher said:

Janus DarkFox The key is that the whole post, in general, wasn't a nice, flattering post about groups of others who weren't a part of the ASM Forum; it was criticizing the way other websites were moderating their forums, referring to that as being "Autistic."

Look the person saying this found out from a member of that group one of the moderators of this place, a place that goes on and on about being a place of respect, and that keeping peoples identities secret, and not doing things that would draw attention to them had kicked them out because they disagreed with him that a parent of a 12 year old girl might want to try and keep options open for their daughter and perhaps say that the way people feel about sex changes over time. Something that having been sexual I know. The trouble though started because Greps first post said "hi there everyone, I am .. Name, and listed this site and ASM... They blocked the person posting for 24 hours while they waited to decide that what I had done was NOT advertising or spam.. Something that is FUCKING obvious to anyone who is... .. any way.

 

LG was just taking part in this discussion, when another paste of a rule list was posted in the discussion. Not like it is here where you can see what, and who something might be aimed at, it was just there with no comment. No one knew what it refereed to. Next about 3 hours later new rules were added saying that people should no give out medical or psychiatric advice, or try and sell cures, or other things. LG then had a conversation that he instigated with the owner of this group, and in the kindest way possible asked that if there was a problem then could they just message him, so that he knew what was the issue, and if it had anything to do with him. because there were quite a number of people in this discussion blatantly breaking rules that were about how people talked to one another. 

 

After a while things went quiet, and he received information from a number of places on the group and someone from other places that the moderator and the owner were passing on my real name, and other details, along with the usernames LG said he had used and a message that was UTTER fabrication tp a number of admins at other web sites. I believe AVEN received one too. Incidentally if anyone in AVEN has seen this then I beg of you to pass it to me so that I can pass it along. This action really was a shitty thing to do what ever had happened, and there are other members of ASM that witnessed this happening. The admins removed all the posts, and conversation, and lied to the admins of other sites about what LG did.. LG's  main grievance here though is that this  place doxed him and made it trivial for anyone to find him, and in a time where people feel iit's their right to do as much real life damage as possible to a person for ideas they have on the internet not to mention the fact that LG did go through a long period where someone was trying to destroy his online world this was just not funny, and the reason I actually feel like telling this story here is because some of you I know are part of this group, and I think you really should know what this place is like. If anyone manages to get a screenshot of the message I will post it as soon as I can. I have seen one from another place but I can't show it because it would be obvious on that site who had let me know. 

 

The Group is the over 30s Facebook Group. I am not saying they would do it to everyone, I am just saying that they took no time at all to do it to LG. And I think he might have be given a little slack in his choice of words, though I am guessing most of you are just saying "Good", as who cares about people getting real life consequences, for expressing their thoughts, because he has it coming to him, That's not hateful at all though is it?

 

How would you describe the people who did this?

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G0D
2 minutes ago, Aris said:

The difference between the admin's slur and the posts you quoted were that all of the people there were describing their own experiences. The admin on that site is delibrately using it in a disparaging way against other people. You couldn't get a much bigger difference.

The person saying those things is NOT the admin. Or rather the views expressed are not those of the admin. There is another user that is the administrator. This is deliberately the case to stop such confusion. @Skycaptain here said what he had to, are you going to say that because he is a moderator, then those are the opinions of AVEN? Lord Grep isn't even a moderator. someone else has that position. A pretty boring job seeing as thought there is for the most part only one rule.

 

ASM works in a completely different way to AVEN, and it is the members who decide by popular vote on rules, and what is acceptable. There is in fact a rule on ASM that states that posts are not allowed that single out and personally insult AVEN members who are not ASM members as we really don't feel that we want to see what amounts to digital bullying. ASM also is all about removing content that breached rules, and not people, there aren't really any restrictions on what people say to each other, so feel free to create an account over there ans tell LG what you think of him. There is always the issue that anyone else can say anything they like back. This is usually the reason that people are for the most case very dynamic and passionate about things, but there is a much kinder and relaxed attitude than here on AVEN. Something about the fact that no one can get anyone else booted off for saying anything nauty. It has happened but you have to be a real dick for that to havppen. 

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G0D

All this talk of hare speech would be ok but the whole things so arse about tit it's unreal. You have a whole load of rules that are set out, and a whole load of theories that you use to explain why people should or shouldn't say certain things, and all these rules at least on here only conspire to encourage and support actual hate speech. I mean one person communicating their hate to another person. I mean even the "Like" button is used in a way to harass someone. The other trick of cause is to try and make the person you hate trip up, and then use as much fake outrage as possibly to gleefully report someone and then get told by you mod friends that "don;'t worry they got a warning, there is also the comfort that of cause if you do slip up then no ones going to actually ban you, and if you do some REALLY nasty stuff AVEN will fake your leaving so you can come bask hidden away, and AVEN looks like it's doing what it says. 

 

So you see I have a little bit of an issue when it comes to being lectured about hatred from a place to be frank I feel little else. I just keep dreaming of the day when one of the iintersectionalists, or cultural Marxists amongst you say to another member "You know that for us saying something or someone is "re-----ed", or "autistic"is something we wouldn't do because we don't want to upset those that are very sensitive, they (the ASM people) just don't see it the same way we do, and they believe that people are more resilient, and that it's better for individuals and society if people learn to actually respect one another, and that respect extends to not assuming the worst in everything someone says, and that the solution for people taking offence is simply to learn to laugh about ones self, show stoicism, or simply learn that most people really don't hate people as much as it's made out.

 

What is crazy about this whole situation is that in actual society those that do believe in the ideas of cultural Marxism, etc, IE the things that are believed by the vast majority of this site the assertions, and beliefs are those of only a small minority of people.

 

My mind boggled how people trying to stop hate, actually created more and more and more ways to feel more hate, and more of a victim than is actually true. This whole thing is just bonkers to me. I can't see any reason at all to read hate or aggression into something where none was intended. Does anyone think that LG actually intended to convey any hatred towards autistic people? If not then why convolute things in such a way as to suggest he did, and then more mashing up later it's taken that ASM is a hate site for not removing something? 

 

Sure some people ie DIck heads I can believe might lookdown on someone with a condition like autism. I get that, and at some point I dare say they got called things that weren't nice. that I get. But no person is their diagnosis... No one says that people cant say "today I am depressed" because it's offensive to depressed people. Calling someone who is uber tidy "OCD" isn't an insult to people who suffer from OCD. Calling someone a "Bastard" is not a hate crime against people with no fathers, Calling someone a "dick" isn;t hating men. Calling a situation "Mental" isn't hating mentally ill people. All the other words I used to describe stupidity  arent hate speech. and after ALL of this ALL of it all I was trying to say was that I wanted to try and start fostering understanding. UNDERSTANDING... and the first response I get from AVEN is:

 

"Because one person in one post said one thing we don't like the whole site is nasty and we don't even want to talk let along understand". 

 

And you call your self "Tolerant". 

Seriously now.. What is it that this narrow minded distrustful mentality "tolerant" of You are supposed to tollerate things that you wouldn't normally like. See all the tollerance stopped being needed about 20 years about maybe even a lot longer when people just finally decided that actually people for the most part are pretty much all the same as each other and that hating people for their differences was pretty stupid. 

 

Now though it's pretty universal other than religion well people just don't see any reasons to hate people so they pretty much get along. 

 

The only space where hate seems to be growing all the time is this fat left cultural Marxism, which bizarrely isn't setting out to hate people, but it says its setting out to stop hate, but all they actually seem to do is to think of more new and novel ways to feel hated, and hate anyone that doesn't agree with them. it really is the most bizarre school of thought. There have been two people who have contributed to this thread that have said they are autistic, and have given their opinion, and these are two people I like very much, and respect very much, and actually they have demonstrated something that illustrates my point perfectly. 

 

Neither of these people particularly love or dislike me, and I am sure that both of them are only motivated to say what they did because they actually believe it. One is a long serving member here, the other a long time member of ASM. Both of them have received something that seems like abuse, and both of them read what was quoted, and both came up with different reactions. My question for those who are not about scoring points and just being nasty, is which one is right, and perhaps which ones belief system is being more beneficial to them? one of them was not offended, one was, neither I think (though I am happy to be corrected) that LG actually intended to offend anyone, accept possibly the person or group of people to whom he refereed. Now if we believe what has been shouted in our faces for so long by proponents of these ideas followed by AVEN then that offence was painful, and a negative damaging thing then No one meant anyone to get hurt but one person did. Why is it that followers of the "everything is hate" mentality are causing their own hate and pain by taking meaning where none is meant, and projecting it on to themselves, and on to other people, and in actual fact the only people who are actually hating anyone are those who are so outraged that it was said in the first place. It is so totally like a religion. It sets up the conflict and pain, then proposes it's self as the only cure for this pain. Meanwhile the rest of us are forced more and more to respect this religion because disagreeing with it in any way can result in pretty industrial amounts of hate. Really where is the tolerance? Why all the hate? And Sorry @Skycaptain I hate to think I am the cause of anything negative towards you. All I can say is that I never intended that consequence, and I genuinely don't understand the logic is feeling any negative emotion at someone for meanings that were clearly not intended. It is the speakers responsibility to try and convey meaning to a listener in the most accurate and precise way possible, and to Taylor such to the audience. It is also  not just an expression of facts but emotion and personality. The word choice is part of this, One would not speak to an old lady at church the same way one would talk to ones best friend at the pub. I really don't think there is anyone reading this that doesn't know that to be true. To me this outrage is a kin to another person walking up to an old lady in the church, and telling them word for word what the other person said in the pub about an apposing sports team and some bad refereeing. 


What upsets me more than anything about this conversation is that I have not been trying to change anyone's mind, I have not been trying to tell AVEN it should be any different, I haven't even been trying to push any radical ideas, I have simply been trying to promote actual tolerance, and understanding, and suggest ways that ASEXUAL people with different political views should perhaps focus on what we share in common rather than separates us. Hey I am used to this, and I know how things work round here, Can you imagine that about 80% of the asexual population comes here, and gets this in their face and thinks "maybe not". I have no idea how one can profess to represent asexuality while hating the majority.

 

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Kimmie.

Yeah the best way to overcome differences is to listen to each other.

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Skycaptain

Locking this as its gone completely off topic and stayed there. Skycaptain acting moderator site comments 

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