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Is AVEN learning?

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G0D
1 hour ago, sithgirlix said:

I agree. I thought it was just me because of the break I was on. This break wasn't inspired by anything AVEn related, but my first one was since I got a warning and was too emotional to take it to heart and just left the space entirely to calm down. I've also heard from others this is a thing. 

So when I got a message from a Mod saying they edited my comment to remove the offensive word (I totally agree that I shouldn't have used it), I was surprised I wasn't given another warning. My old one has long expired, but the three strikes rule would still probably make me leave the site for a few months. 

 

I am all in favor of AVEN growing and changing to be more welcoming of people. I also acknowledge there are minors that use this site and outright hateful people shouldn't be allowed to spread too much vitrial. But so far I'm happy with the changes I've noticed.

Unfortunately there are so many that just left for good.. It's strange to me that every single mod I have talked to thinks I am being overly dramatic, or trying to win a stupid point or something by being overly sensitive for effect. NONE of the must be 20 odd mods I have chatted to in private will even acknowledge the notion that getting warnings and nudges and the like is actually something really fucking devastating, ESPECIALLY for people who are new here. They are excited that they have perhaps found a place where they fit in, and they get chatting, and they treat AVEN like every other forum out there, and make jokes, maybe join in a debate, and then (as happened to me) I was told by a mod that what I had done was "Suspicious", and it was in chat, so first I thought it was a joke, I really couldn't see how what I had said could be offensive, I mean it was just very silly, any way., I actually apologised to everyone, and got on with my day.. I have been talking to people after this, chatting with the mod, having fun, and suddenly I get a chat ban, and it's just extraordinarily upsetting. I was really sad that people could be debating how I must be a homophobe, and  the conversation had been cut, and it was devoid of ANY of the context, it was just so horrid that someone would misrepresent me the way they had, and I felt such a sinking feeling as I felt like the community was rejecting me, and I really felt so double crossed by the moderator who had accepted my apology, and then proceed to chat ban me any way for 2 weeks. Then I actually tried to appeal that, and I waited till it got deceased, and I was just blown away by how vehemently some people were arguing that what I had said was homophobic, It was all so utterly depressing, and I saw these things getting handed out like they were sweets.

 

It really is a terrible way to run a forum especially when many of the people here are a bit delicate. If something like that makes me that sad, and upset, I have no idea how crap other people feel about being rejected by a place that claims to represent them. 

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G0D
5 hours ago, Serran said:

That really varies by who the moderators are, tbh. 

 

I've seen some pretty blatant bias in admods in my time on the staff. For example, two users made the same comment. One said "Republicans" and one said "Green Party". One got a warn, one got a nudge. They were copying each other, so it was word-for-word same statement with just different groups named. Another example is admods saying things like "Well, it is (user) so they deserve it" when talking about discipline. 

 

Since each mod kind of gets to make up how they'll follow the rules and enforce ToS on their own, who the team is matters to what the team does. Warn, nudge, edit or let it pass? It's all subjective and thus all comes down to who is moderating more than what rules are. And human bias plays into those decisions, as much as the team wishes it didn't. And some admods are more biased than others. 

 

Which, is probably going to happen no matter what, as admods are human and humans are by nature a biased species. But, to pretend as if bias doesn't exist at all is illusion and wishful thinking. The important bit is recognizing it does happen and calling it out for each other when you notice it, because most the time people don't even realize they are doing it and think they are being fair. 

I want to just repost the above, as @Serran is one of a few mods here I trust 100% and I know is as honest and as unbiased as they come

 

Thanks.. 

 

My whole point has been, and it's something I seem fated to repeat often. It's the system that is broken not the people,. You CANNOT fix this problem with just better people. Even mods don't know who voted for what, and anyone can vote any way they want without recourse or question. You wan't to just warn women, you can vote that way all you want, no one would even know. I am surprised the whole place hasn't been taken over by an extreme group of... oh... wait what am I saying.. You know you would only need about 5 moderators to effectively just take over this place. May be a couple more but not much more, and there would be nothing anyone could do.. You could just start getting socks to report silly things, and all make up the most hilarious reasons, but you only need 50% of a vote to win.. NOT that I am suggesting anyone do that, but it's very easy to see how we got to this point in time isn't it? Especially as moderators are not allowed to say anything much about anything. 

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Sage Raven Domino
29 minutes ago, burobu said:

Not sure if the software allows it, but maybe a different color for those links, and a message the first time the user enters that part of the site? Like "hey, if you just want to goof around and relax, maybe don't come here right now", with a "do not display this again" option or something.

I'm dreaming about AVEN's Hot Box being made an opt-in, hidden, almost unmoderated zone like ASM's Unsafe Space.

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G0D
Just now, Sage Raven Domino said:

I'm dreaming about AVEN's Hot Box being made an opt-in, almost unmoderated zone like ASM's Unsafe Space.

Dream on <grin> Just use ASM as an extension of AVEN.. You want to say anything you are unsure of, or want to ask a question that someone is going to get all mad about, post on ASM.. Want to say things you KNOW people are not going to like.. Unsafe Space is defo the place for that <grin>. The only moderation that would happen there is someone starting a topic that is too bland <grin>.

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user23974865
1 hour ago, Sage Raven Domino said:

I'm dreaming about AVEN's Hot Box being made an opt-in, almost unmoderated zone like ASM's Unsafe Space.

That sounds reasonable. Not sure if it would be practical, but it sounds reasonable. Like on the site where I used to post, there was an antisocial personality disorder section (contrary to everyday use of the word "antisocial", the technical meaning of it is "aggressive and disruptive", and people usually aren't diagnosed with ASPD unless they've been convicted of serious crimes). So... you can imagine it wasn't exactly (and couldn't be) a "safe space". The section had a huge red banner on top, basically saying "Look, there's criminals here. If they're going to be talking about unicorns, it's probably about the ways how they would love to dissect one alive. Proceed at your own risk".

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user23974865
6 hours ago, G0D said:

AVEN rarely deals with anyone where no complaint has been made, this is institutionally prejudiced against anyone with more right leaning / moderate thinkers.

I'm not privy to all those other details, but this criticism in particular makes a lot of sense to me. I don't even necessarily mean it as an implied criticism of the left, it's just the way it works: the right is particularly concerned with what people should do, while the left is particularly concerned with what people shouldn't do. A "moderation on demand" model of operation benefits the latter.

 

By the way, just to be clear: I don't believe or feel like I've been treated unfairly in any way, and I don't particularly expect to be treated unfairly in the future either, so this really isn't meant as a criticism regarding any particular situation.

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G0D
9 minutes ago, burobu said:

That sounds reasonable. Not sure if it would be practical, but it sounds reasonable. Like on the site where I used to post, there was an antisocial personality disorder section (contrary to everyday use the word "antisocial", the technical meaning of it is "aggressive and disruptive", and people usually aren't diagnosed with ASPD unless they've been convicted of serious crimes). So... you can imagine it wasn't exactly a "safe space". The section had a huge red banner on top, basically saying "Look, there's criminals here and, if they're going to be talking about unicorns, it's probably about the ways how they would love to dissect one alive. Proceed at your own risk".

That's fucking fantastic...

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Serran
3 minutes ago, burobu said:

I'm not privy to all those other details, but this criticism in particular makes a lot of sense to me. I don't even necessarily mean it as an implied criticism of the left, it's just the way it works: the right is particularly concerned with what people should do, while the left is particularly concerned with what people shouldn't do. A "moderation on demand" model of operation benefits the latter.

 

By the way, just to be clear: I don't believe or feel like I've been treated unfairly in any way, and I don't particularly expect to be treated unfairly in the future either, so this really isn't meant as a criticism regarding any particular situation.

Whether actions in a section are moderator based or report based again depends on who it is moderating. Some follow the whole forum and spend hours reading through new posts in their section daily. Others skim a bit but mostly rely on reports. 

 

Whether a report is dismissed or posted is also up to the moderator. They can say no merit and toss it, or post for discussion.

 

When I was admod there was a growing trend that some wanted to curb, of anything posted resulted usually in at least a nudge. Even if it was a not much offense. The no action option seemed too rarely used. 

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Sage Raven Domino
2 minutes ago, Serran said:

When I was admod there was a growing trend that some wanted to curb, of anything posted resulted usually in at least a nudge. Even if it was a not much offense. The no action option seemed too rarely used. 

How is a nudge different from no action, apart from the PM communication? The action discussion thread isn't deleted from Admods Only anyway.

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G0D
14 minutes ago, Sage Raven Domino said:

How is a nudge different from no action, apart from the PM communication? The action discussion thread isn't deleted from Admods Only anyway.

Nudges are just as bad... Worse there is no way of appealing it. It's more about the whole officially being called wrong, or being told you are not allowed to have that opinion. It's the same damn thing, it's being told that a group of people decided you are some sort of bigot. None of it is just a moderator, having a little chat, it's utterly impersonal, and shitty.

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user23974865
26 minutes ago, Serran said:

Whether actions in a section are moderator based or report based again depends on who it is moderating. Some follow the whole forum and spend hours reading through new posts in their section daily. Others skim a bit but mostly rely on reports. 

 

Whether a report is dismissed or posted is also up to the moderator. They can say no merit and toss it, or post for discussion.

Thanks for the clarification. 👍

 

I guess it's something that could potentially be made into an official duty of a moderator rather than a matter of preference then, with general guidelines on both a minimum and a maximum amount of effort to be spent on active moderation.

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user23974865
Just now, G0D said:

Nudges are just as bad...

I'm not very familiar with these terms: what's a nudge?

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Sage Raven Domino
8 minutes ago, G0D said:

Nudges are just as bad... Worse there is no way of appealing it. It's more about the whole officially being called wrong, or being told you are not allowed to have that opinion. It's the same damn thing, it's being told that a group of people decided you are some sort of bigot. None of it is just a moderator, having a little chat, it's utterly impersonal, and shitty.

I look at nudges as extra pieces of info about who minds me and for what. On a side general note, enemies' opinions are just as valuable to me as allies', I learn from them.

 

@burobu 

 

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G0D
6 minutes ago, burobu said:

I'm not very familiar with these terms: what's a nudge?

You really should read the ToS mate... Just search for ToS on the site..and all will be revealed. I'd go hunting for you but I am falling asleep, and I think I'd get lost and not find my way back here <grin>.. Oh someone else just did it for us.. Hurrah... Cheers Sage..

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user23974865

Oh okay. Thanks @Sage Raven Domino.

 

1 minute ago, G0D said:

You really should read the ToS mate... 

I did, a couple weeks ago I think. My mindspace is fairly limited though. Disembodied information doesn't last long inside my skull...

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G0D
2 minutes ago, Sage Raven Domino said:

I look at nudges as extra pieces of info about who minds me and for what. Enemies' opinions are just as valuable to me as allies', I learn from them.

 

@burobu 



 

How to appeal. hahaha... This is the best method to appeal on AVEN... Type out at least 5 pages of explanations as to why what you have said isn't meant in any way the way it has been described.. Then convert to a PDF, then send that to your print queue, After you have printed it out, use the paper to roll a massive joint, OR use it as roach material. The end result will be the same as if you had sent it to AVEN but with this method you will not give a shit about the damn thing for a few precious hours. 

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G0D
1 minute ago, burobu said:

Oh okay. Thanks @Sage Raven Domino.

 

I did, a couple weeks ago I think. My mindspace is fairly limited though. Disembodied information doesn't last long inside my skull...

I know that feeling... What we talking about again?

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user23974865
5 minutes ago, G0D said:

I know that feeling... What we talking about again?

Spoiler

4e76ffb6829564cd5a928561c3376f52.jpg

 

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Guest Jetsun Milarepa

Catching up on the activity here...phew!

My warning was about being personally insulting.

What I actually said was that the person concerned in all the bullying should be looking to themselves...they were lashing out at people around them because they had had their ego bruised by their partner. They'd put a whole load of eggs in one basket..sex - and their partner hadn't.

Everyone could see what their issues were...except them.

All I did was post that they were in a mess, they couldn't see it was going nowhere and to move on with their life. I actually said that they needed to get laid and calm down.

It didn't matter that 6 months later they actually left their spouse and then went crowing about how they'd moved on...when I pointed it out to them they admitted it took them a long while to see what needed doing...but I got a warning!

They then went on to twist some of my posts into ' all men should be castrated'...really? The mods fell hook line and sinker for it...vengeance is sweet when you're a disgruntled cis het male on an asexual site.

 

 

 

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G0D
5 minutes ago, chandrakirti said:

Catching up on the activity here...phew!

My warning was about being personally insulting.

What I actually said was that the person concerned in all the bullying should be looking tp themselves...they were lashing out at people around them because they had had their ego bruised by their partner. They'd put a whole load of eggs in one basket..sex and their partner hadn't.

Everyone could see what their issues were...except them.

All I did was post that they were in a mess, they couldn't see it was going nowhere and to move on with their life. I actually said that they needed to get laid and calm down.

It didn't matter that 6 no the later they actually left their spouse and then went crowing about how they'd moved on...when I pointed it out to them they admitted it took them a long while to see what needed doing...but I got a warning!

They then went on to twist some of my posts into ' all men should be castrated'...really? The mods fell hook line and sinker for it...vengeance is sweet when you're a disgruntled cis het male on an asexual site.

 

 

 

 

Oh boy!!! oh boy!!!

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Kimmie.

@chandrakirti I am really sorry that you are leaving i will miss you.

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G0D
2 minutes ago, Kimmie. said:

@chandrakirti I am really sorry that you are leaving i will miss you.

Yeah, I haven't really got to know you till now @chandrakirti but it's going to be sad to see you go.. 

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Guest Jetsun Milarepa

I have a timetable planned so you'll find I just grey out rather than suddenly disappear. That way folk will be less likely to ask about me.

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user23974865
39 minutes ago, chandrakirti said:

Catching up on the activity here...phew!

My warning was about being personally insulting.

What I actually said was that the person concerned in all the bullying should be looking tp themselves...they were lashing out at people around them because they had had their ego bruised by their partner. They'd put a whole load of eggs in one basket..sex and their partner hadn't.

Everyone could see what their issues were...except them.

All I did was post that they were in a mess, they couldn't see it was going nowhere and to move on with their life. I actually said that they needed to get laid and calm down.

It didn't matter that 6 no the later they actually left their spouse and then went crowing about how they'd moved on...when I pointed it out to them they admitted it took them a long while to see what needed doing...but I got a warning!

They then went on to twist some of my posts into ' all men should be castrated'...really? The mods fell hook line and sinker for it...vengeance is sweet when you're a disgruntled cis het male on an asexual site.

This explains certain things and confirms what I suspected.

 

I believe I had a minor unpleasant encounter with the person in question recently. I was taken by surprise when I pointed something out to them (more or less in the spirit of "come on, read the room, unnecessary comments are okay sometimes, but they have implications in this case") and got a response with a very insensitive attitude about it. In retrospect, I realize I didn't really know who I was talking to, or how I should have approached them (if at all).

 

I would understand it if that person was part of the main audience that this site is intended for, but they're not, just like I'm not either, even if I'm somewhat closer to it. I think it's important for a guest to realize that they're at someone else's home. And if they don't (which I think can easily happen even without malice involved), then I think the point should be made clear to them by moderators.

 

(To be clear: When I say "making the point clear", I don't mean "punishment".)

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Guest Jetsun Milarepa

Yes, I'm with you on that @burobu... I'd just like to find a space for aces to support each other, rather than one that's rolling over backwards to have its tummy tickled by allos.

 

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MichaelTannock
15 minutes ago, chandrakirti said:

Yes, I'm with you on that @burobu... I'd just like to find a space for aces to support each other, rather than one that's rolling over backwards to have its tummy tickled by allos.

 

AVEN is a space for Aces to support each other.

I truly believe that.

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G0D
1 hour ago, chandrakirti said:

I have a timetable planned so you'll find I just grey out rather than suddenly disappear. That way folk will be less likely to ask about me.

That's a rather organised retreat. No one seems to notice when I disappear <sob sob>... <wink>.

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Serran
5 hours ago, burobu said:

I'm not very familiar with these terms: what's a nudge?

A nudge is a PM from a mod saying you either broke a rule in a small way or you nearly did, so in the future use caution.  No bans or anything can result in 50 nudges. 

 

However... nudges are taken into account when voting on warns. And they are logged. So, if you got nudged for insulting then insult again, more likely to get a warning cause you were told to use caution. 

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MichaelTannock
2 hours ago, G0D said:

That's a rather organised retreat. No one seems to notice when I disappear <sob sob>... <wink>.

If I've had any lengthy interactions from other members, I notice when I haven't seen them comment on the forums in a while.
That includes you.
So rest assured that at least one person notices.

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Guest Jetsun Milarepa
4 hours ago, burobu said:

I believe I had a minor unpleasant encounter with the person in question recently. I was taken by surprise when I pointed something out to them (more or less in the spirit of "come on, read the room, unnecessary comments are okay sometimes, but they have implications in this case") and got a response with a very insensitive attitude about it. In retrospect, I realize I didn't really know who I was talking to, or how I should have approached them (if at all).

 

I would understand it if that person was part of the main audience that this site is intended for, but they're not, just like I'm not either, even if I'm somewhat closer to it. I think it's important for a guest to realize that they're at someone else's home. And if they don't (which I think can easily happen even without malice involved), then I think the point should be made clear to them by moderators.

 

 

On the first paragraph, you're supposed to tug the forelock and bow, giving way to a superior 'knowledge' and 'sexual orientation'.

On the second paragraph... THIS!

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