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Is AVEN learning?

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Sage Raven Domino
5 minutes ago, chandrakirti said:

And why shouldn't I be able to add anything innocuous to any forum or thread? 

Am I to be a 'good little girl' and not bother my little head about anything more than JFF or Chatterbox?

Let's push all the women into the background because it's about sexual males.

Alas, one of the perils of democracy is the slowness of justice (but it's a benefit to those who would have been unfairly accused otherwise). I can see why you'd prefer a less inclusive space, and I wish you to find a good one :cake:

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Guest Jetsun Milarepa
13 minutes ago, InquisitivePhilosopher said:

Hmm, would it be possible for Chandra to "block" from seeing the member's posts? I also remember a mod recently mentioning that if a member notices that they keep being harassed by another member in different forums, to let the mods know and that they'd handle it.

 

I'm just trying to help Chandra find a solution to their problem, rather than feeling frustrated and leaving.

There are other folk who repeatedly quote him. The block isn't good enough.

When you've no interest in what a person snarls about bit you still see the nonsense through quotes...it's not working.

Note there's not been any following from this member and their sidekick onto this thread...because they're happy to think I'll be gone because of them.

But... I just outgrew the stuff here.

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Skycaptain

Speaking as an admod I'm slightly constrained because we have a rule about breaching, or disclosing disciplinary matters. However can I assure everyone that a topic being mentioned is being deliberated by the admods. 

 

Also, referring to reported behaviour, can all members be aware tha AVEN is a global forum, so we have to take timezones and the availability of the appropriate moderators into consideration, it usually takes four to six days for a serious transgressor to be warned. A nudge can take place in less time 

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LeChat
15 minutes ago, chandrakirti said:

There are other folk who repeatedly quote him. The block isn't good enough.

When you've no interest in what a person snarls about bit you still see the nonsense through quotes...it's not working.

Note there's not been any following from this member and their sidekick onto this thread...because they're happy to think I'll be gone because of them.

But... I just outgrew the stuff here.

Oh. Thanks, for the explanation. I didn't know what "block" does or doesn't do, that quotes were still viewable. I'll be sorry to see you leave, if only based on negative experiences with one or two people.

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MichaelTannock
15 minutes ago, G0D said:

If your warnings result in someone leaving, then it isn't fit for purpose.

The purpose is to enforce the ToS in a way that helps people learn to avoid breaching the ToS again.

If someone leaves because of a warning, I think it is very likely they wouldn't have learnt anything anyway, and continued to breach the ToS regardless of what the Admod team says or does.

 

25 minutes ago, G0D said:

I remember asking someone a while ago in another thread here, "How many people have actually won their appeal", and the answer I think was something like 2 in 5 years, and I worked out the percentage to be tiny.

I've seen appeals rejected, and it was usually because the reasoning behind the warning was ignored by the person appealing, rather than addressed.
In some cases, this seemed to be intentionally misunderstanding said warning, since warnings come with an explanation.

 

59 minutes ago, G0D said:

And then there is my own experience with someone stalking the shit out of me. lying to everyone, creating incidents to frame me, and then getting everyone to believe them... Something I complained about at least 6 times to moderators, and then got you involved, and a whole load of other people, eventually they spill their lies out in public on another forum, a forum that AVEN actually linked to, a place I could actually reply to, and I did, and the person actually admitted in public that I was in fact telling the truth all along. So the opinion AVEN and MANY more people had come to was that I was actually stalking her, and what was AVENs actions after that? An apology? maybe a statement clarifying events for people? Come on... No what happened was that the site the person wrote all the the stuff on lost it's AVEN link because it refused to remove the offending material towards me (Please not I never asked for that to happen, and I didn't want it to, I even offered to save the site and host it my self but fie them complete autonomy) Then the person that did this was allowed to fake leave... Something AVEN had done before.

The opinion of AVEN?

 

6 minutes ago, G0D said:

Do you guys have a script for dealing with these questions, because these don't actually answer the points. The whole system is setup so that it is biased. I really have a hard time understanding how anyone here could not see this. It's something that feminism, and those that accuse people of being racists keep going on about. It's the patriarchy of politics.  Let me just try and spell this out...

I don't see the bias that you're talking about, and those are my words.

As for your generalisations, anyone can make a report, and the political leanings of the reporter and reported are irrelevant to us, all that matters is whether a breach of the ToS has occurred.

 

15 minutes ago, G0D said:

It's not my job to police the site, and what is the point. the ToS is used like an ancient text stretched to include all sorts of stuff that isn't at all obvious. I mean where does it say in the ToS that making generalisations is an offence, especially when it's true. This is just one example of MANY

No one is asking you to "police the site", but reporting a post that you think breaches the ToS helps the moderators who do police the site, and I don't see why you shouldn't.

As for the ToS itself, why not make suggestions to improve it, if you see so many problems with it?

 

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Serran
2 hours ago, MichaelTannock said:

Then report those posts that say "anyone who voted for Trump is a Nazi".

Users who make such posts would be disciplined as well, as the issue isn't Left vs Right for the Admod team.

That really varies by who the moderators are, tbh. 

 

I've seen some pretty blatant bias in admods in my time on the staff. For example, two users made the same comment. One said "Republicans" and one said "Green Party". One got a warn, one got a nudge. They were copying each other, so it was word-for-word same statement with just different groups named. Another example is admods saying things like "Well, it is (user) so they deserve it" when talking about discipline. 

 

Since each mod kind of gets to make up how they'll follow the rules and enforce ToS on their own, who the team is matters to what the team does. Warn, nudge, edit or let it pass? It's all subjective and thus all comes down to who is moderating more than what rules are. And human bias plays into those decisions, as much as the team wishes it didn't. And some admods are more biased than others. 

 

Which, is probably going to happen no matter what, as admods are human and humans are by nature a biased species. But, to pretend as if bias doesn't exist at all is illusion and wishful thinking. The important bit is recognizing it does happen and calling it out for each other when you notice it, because most the time people don't even realize they are doing it and think they are being fair. 

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Sage Raven Domino

Speaking of the timeframes, warnings would be instant if they were up to a solitary decision by the mod who's responsible for the forum where the reported behavior took place, and I've seen such a setup work decently well on other boards, however, it does sometimes raise concerns about a mod's legitimacy, particularly that of the mods of politics sections, which tend to be the most inflammable. Ultimately, it's decided by the benevolent dictator of such a board who appoints the mods.

 

That said, the boards where I've observed the said setup tend to have members who're less sensitive on average than AVENites, and I don't think the setup would work well here.

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MichaelTannock
5 minutes ago, Serran said:

That really varies by who the moderators are, tbh. 

 

I've seen some pretty blatant bias in admods in my time on the staff. For example, two users made the same comment. One said "Republicans" and one said "Green Party". One got a warn, one got a nudge. They were copying each other, so it was word-for-word same statement with just different groups named. Another example is admods saying things like "Well, it is (user) so they deserve it" when talking about discipline. 

 

Since each mod kind of gets to make up how they'll follow the rules and enforce ToS on their own, who the team is matters to what the team does. Warn, nudge, edit or let it pass? It's all subjective and thus all comes down to who is moderating more than what rules are. And human bias plays into those decisions, as much as the team wishes it didn't. And some admods are more biased than others. 

 

Which, is probably going to happen no matter what, as admods are human and humans are by nature a biased species. But, to pretend as if bias doesn't exist at all is illusion and wishful thinking. The important bit is recognizing it does happen and calling it out for each other when you notice it, because most the time people don't even realize they are doing it and think they are being fair. 

I find that disturbing. Maybe it's because I'm new, or blind to it, or the team has changed a lot, but I haven't seen that kind of thing yet.

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Serran
4 minutes ago, Sage Raven Domino said:

Speaking of the timeframes, warnings would be instant if they were up to a solitary decision by the mod who's responsible for the forum where the reported behavior took place, and I've seen such a setup work decently well on other boards, however, it does sometimes raise concerns about a mod's legitimacy, particularly that of the mods of politics sections, which tend to be the most inflammable. Ultimately, it's decided by the benevolent dictator of such a board who appoints the mods.

 

That said, the boards where I've observed the said setup tend to have members who're less sensitive on average than AVENites, and I don't think the setup would work well here.

AVEN allows solo modding, it is up to each moderator if they want to solo mod or not. They just have to announce it to the moderators. Then they can issue a warning as long as they put up the draft for team review (no vote needed) for the specified period of time. That way if the team thinks it's an unfair warning, they can say so before it goes out, but the lack of vote needed speeds up the process considerably. 

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Serran
2 minutes ago, MichaelTannock said:

I find that disturbing. Maybe it's because I'm new, or blind to it, or the team has changed a lot, but I haven't seen that kind of thing yet.

I didn't notice it until I was into moderating for a bit, because it's something you really have to be paying attention to catch. But, it was there often enough. I was the annoying one that was pulling up old discipline threads for precedent and showing compare and contrast of decisions and all that after a while. Probably one reason BoD asked me to be a trainer? *shrug* As I said, who is on the team matters as far as that goes. And the team has changed a lot lately. But, yeah. Of course bias exists. 

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Sage Raven Domino

Edit: I was wondering about the handling of multiple reports when one of the forums is solo-modded, but never mind, I've recalled the thread on the report merger policy that I'd seen earlier this month - my memory is declining :(

 

Edited by Sage Raven Domino

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Guest Jetsun Milarepa

PS , just to clarify, I'm I'm not leaving because of a warning.

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G0D
2 hours ago, Sage Raven Domino said:

The hotboxing thread was supposed to be an abstract request for a policy change (though inspired by a real precedent) that would serve myself well in the future, but then personal issues were brought into it... oh well. I guess I didn't pay enough attention to my language usage, sorry.

 

ETA: I used 'get a room' in the sense of Urban Dictionary definition #4, which I'm most used to because the other forums where I hang out are predominantly straight cis-male, and the expression is never understood in the sexual or romantic sense there.

 

 

This is what I mean by taking the worst possible interpretation. I remember getting a warning for using the word "botty", the moderators thought it was good enough to use the definition of "batty", and the Jamaican meaning. I then got a warning while trying to explain this because someone else got upset with another misinterpretation. That warning was 100% a result of who was upset and not why. 

 

The last warning I got though... Yeah that one was justified. My only excuse was that I was spaced out on my morphine, and a bit tired and drunk, and I thought I would have a laugh with a fellow hippy.. But I was a dick, and deserved it. the rest of them have all been laughable to say the least.

 

The issue with the whole system is that it utterly promotes the feeling of mistrust, everyone knows it, yet AVEN does nothing about it. Just keeps telling us it's our fault for not trusting them. Look when you have private talks with ACTUAL moderators and you talk about the issue of political bias a lot of them will say in private that they have no issue what so ever with shutting people down who "spread hate". If people actually were doing that I would agree, but when those same people think that using the word "botty" is hate speech, and everyone who voted for trump deserve to be punched. It's not the members that need to change, it's the whole damn system, but no one wants to do anything at all about that. One issue would be all the stuff people would see from the past... Eeeek... 

 

It may be disheartening to hear all this, but the fact of the matter is that it doesn't matter how moral you believe you are, it's not our job to trust AVEN, it's AVENs job to demonstrate that it is trust worthy. Giving one line ancient tired responses to the issue just doesn't cut it. I thought AVEN was actually doing something about these things, it's why I started this thread. I really didn't expect to just get the "oh we only implement the ToS". It utterly ignores the point, and just sounds like yet another letter from a corporation, Problems get solved by actions, and the votes of the admods should not decide anything. It should be democratically decided, or at least be as open as possible. 

 

We started experimenting how to do this on ASM and it's something I am sure we will do again when the membership starts to climb again, or when the need arises. We had got it to the point of having a constitution that sets out the things ASM is for and not for, and the power of the "President" to ensure that democracy wasn't allowed to break that, to avoid the problem of democracy between two wolves and one sheep voting on what to eat for dinner. 

 

Most cases can be publicly visible and result in a vote. IMPORTANTLY people are actually allowed to defend themselves.  Aven doesn't even allow that. The first thing they know about anything is the end result. It's a really shit feeling knowing that people have spent a long time pulling apart your comments trying to find shit. Really it's fucking awful to see what some people insinuate and insist you mean, when nothing could be further from the truth.  

 

So people can defend themselves, and everyone can discuss things. I mean it's not like most things need to even get that far...

 

In the case of situations that are delicate, and both parties want things to remain private both the accused, and the accuser are notified of a decision. If the site was big enough I think that both parties should be able to chose the people who vote on their behalf too. 

 

The simple fact is though, that it never needs to get that far. Most problems just need a polite word in the ear, or a request for civility. Sometimes people get mad with each other, just asking people to calm it works way way better than an official warning. It really does feel like the community is rejecting you in the most impersonal terms when AVEN sends you a warning. The whole site plays up, and it really does feel like something similar to what I imagine an online police cell feels like (yes I know what a real one feels like).

 

I am sorry @MichaelTannock you feel disheartened. I genuinely wanted to just thank AVEN for what I perceived was progress, but the response I got back put me in a place where I just had to respond. I feel very passionately about AVEN, and my desire to see it be more open and accountable. You cant create a system, and then blame those that use it for it's flaws. Equally you can't say that "the system can seem like you are being treated unfairly and therefor there isn't any unfairness". 

 

At the end of the day AVEN is here to serve a purpose, it is here to be a place for people who are asexual to talk, and to raise awareness, and to represent us (as AVEN does do, even to governments (I am thinking census stuff)). If AVENs makeup does not represent the diversity it clams it does IE all asexual people then AVEN needs to change, not the people. 

 

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Custard Cream

I wish the outcome of a report was communicated to the person who made it. I was at the receiving end of a number of ridiculous accusations from the same person recently. I only found out the person involved had been banned because I bothered to check the admod archive. Knowing that would have taken a lot of worry off my shoulders, as this was someone who stalked me outside AVEN afterwards.

 

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MichaelTannock
3 minutes ago, G0D said:

I am sorry @MichaelTannock you feel disheartened. I genuinely wanted to just thank AVEN for what I perceived was progress, but the response I got back put me in a place where I just had to respond. I feel very passionately about AVEN, and my desire to see it be more open and accountable. You cant create a system, and then blame those that use it for it's flaws. Equally you can't say that "the system can seem like you are being treated unfairly and therefor there isn't any unfairness". 

That's the thing I'm not saying "the system can seem like you are being treated unfairly and therefore there isn't any unfairness".
I'm saying "the system can seem like you are being treated unfairly, but from what I've seen the system treats you fairly, and I wish I could show you that".

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daveb
23 minutes ago, chandrakirti said:

PS , just to clarify, I'm I'm not leaving because of a warning.

yeah, unfortunately too many people leave for other reasons, like not feeling welcome or for getting harassed or other reasons (some benign, some not)

I'd wager that happens more often than people leaving because they got a warning, but I don't think I can prove it. If it comes down to people leaving for getting warnings vs people leaving for getting harassed I think I know which I would generally prefer. And I'm sorry to see you talking about leaving. :( 

 

Part of the job of mods, as I see it, (in addition to enforcing the rules for the good of all) is to advocate for members who haven't violated the rules - whether they are victims of others who have or have been reported for things they shouldn't be. Sometimes there's a gray area when it comes to breaches and reports. We have to make judgement calls, and of course bias can creep into that, and that's one reason I prefer not solo modding. I want to get more input when things are uncertain in my mind; maybe other people's insights (and biases) will counterbalance mine or provide enough food for thought to make me rethink my position in any given case.

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G0D
1 hour ago, Sage Raven Domino said:

I can't comment on the efficiency of the ignore feature because I've never used it :) But it does have some deficiencies, e.g. one still gets notifications about posts by an ignored user made in a followed thread, which is the reason why Chandra has had to unfollow threads (which you did witness).

Ignore sucks because people quote people, and what actually happens is that the person gets away with abusing you in everything post they write, but because you don't see it, you don't complain. Equally you get to see them liking every singly fucking time someone says something that disagrees with you, then there is the times you see other people quoting them, and the fact they seem to follow you about giving you shit.  Yeah... Been there... Done that... The worst thing is I know the very second I say something back I'll get reported. And what is the point in reporting things.. I did it again and again, and nothing happened. I spent ages talking with mod after mod after mod, and no one gave a fuck... 

 

You know what is so strange about this place, for all the rules, and the punishments and all the rest I actually feel more threatened here than on ASM. There anyone could say pretty much anything they like to me, and me in return, but it very rarely happens. It's like this video with dogs barking through an electric gate:

 

 

When people think there is no threat of violence they can be as mean and nasty as they like, just so long as they stay within the rules. The reason I think ASM works is because it's like a discussion where everyone has a loaded gun. It's in everyone's interest not to get mad or provoke one another. I have been really amazed at just how calmly people discuss things that are at times really provocative, and there are many opinions expressed their I utterly reject, and I have no idea how someone comes up with such shit, but no desire to hate them for it.

 

I have said it before and I dare say I will say it a million more times. One of the biggest issues with AVEN is that it has been setup with too many people to do a job that doesn't really need to happen. It has adopted the tactics, and the mentality of a corporation with a few million members, It creates work for it's self and everyone wants to feel they have real power. It's just a LARP corp... The way it operates,  the red tape, the bureaucracy, and the space it feels it occupies is just bonkers. Have you noticed that so many small organisations try and pretend they are massive, yet the really big ones go out of their way to seem as personal as possible. 

 

AVEN just needs to start actually moderating for the benefit of the users, and not for the benefit of the moderators. The aim should surely be to keep as many active menbers as possible, and if you are pushing a huge proportion away then there is something very wrong. I am still utterly bemused that given how much of a LARP Corp AVEN is no one has actually bothered to just do a quick and dirty study to see what their actions actually cause. Why hasn't it been done? Simple, they know if they do have an issue, they might actually have to address it. Much easier just to say in a whiny voice "It's only a warning"!! then go back to using urban dictionary as a definitive source on something rather than using common sense. Yeah people, you need to check every word you use hasn't been used by someone else, somewhere else in the world as some sort of insult, and in my case you need to check all the words that are spelt in a similar way,

 

If you read all this... thank you very much. I know I write way more than I should I just really want to get a message across and I just don't feel 3 lines cut it.

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Verb
7 hours ago, G0D said:

I went through about 10 random declassed warning/nudges. Every single one I looked at stopped posting just after the "discipline" was administrated.

I'm genuinely quite curious about that. Did you only view threads where usernames had been left in, or were you able to identify the members in question from the information in the thread?

 

Just wondering if we need to shore things up on the DT side of things :lol: 

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MichaelTannock
16 minutes ago, G0D said:

I am still utterly bemused that given how much of a LARP Corp AVEN is no one has actually bothered to just do a quick and dirty study to see what their actions actually cause. Why hasn't it been done? Simple, they know if they do have an issue, they might actually have to address it.

I don't believe that for a second. I'm certainly not afraid of addressing problems or hard work. And from what I've seen, the other Admods aren't either.

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Sage Raven Domino
5 minutes ago, Verb said:

I'm genuinely quite curious about that. Did you only view threads where usernames had been left in, or were you able to identify the members in question from the information in the thread?

 

Just wondering if we need to shore things up on the DT side of things :lol: 

A forum search using keywords from a quote that was left unedited in a declassed disciplinary thread often does allow to identify the members.

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Guest Jetsun Milarepa

I'm going to be radical here....as I've had bother with an embittered sexual man, why does aven allow sexuals with an agenda to stomp across every thread and forum?

Why not restrict to educational threads...Asexual Visibility and Education Network... We're no more visible and the sexuals are not being educated if they are allowed to abuse aces.

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OptimisticPessimist
59 minutes ago, CustardCream said:

I wish the outcome of a report was communicated to the person who made it. I was at the receiving end of a number of ridiculous accusations from the same person recently. I only found out the person involved had been banned because I bothered to check the admod archive. Knowing that would have taken a lot of worry off my shoulders, as this was someone who stalked me outside AVEN afterwards.

 

I agree with this. 

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G0D
9 minutes ago, MichaelTannock said:

I don't believe that for a second. I'm certainly not afraid of addressing problems or hard work. And from what I've seen, the other Admods aren't either.

Do the study then. Publish it, and allow the community to discuss it. Select all the nudges and warnings get the date they were issued, and see when the users last post was. Then publish the full results that is inclusive of any other discipline. What would be most interesting would be discipline given to members within the first month of activity, and how long after the intervention the users last post was. If you want to get an idea, just go to declass find a warning, get the date, and then look at the date of their last post.  Everyone I found when I looked had a last post date at about the same time as the warning was issued.

 

You might want to actually think about what percentage of people is an acceptable number to treat a warning as a reason to leave. You could pull that number out of the air, or work out a value based on the average time spent on AVEN... 

 

I would be MORE than happy to join the AVEN team, and actually carry out that study, and a whole heap of others. Because so far in the years I have been banging on and on about this no one has said they have even done the simple process of checking some random declass warnings and the last post date to get an idea. 

 

I am not going to post any examples because I will just be accused of cherry picking, and besides, I really want you guys to see for yourself, and actually care about the result. 

 

If you are the same Michael that I spent a while talking to about the whole stalking AS-NS thing, then I have actually put this point to you a couple of times before... 

 

I am assuming that you accept the premise that if warnings actually cause people to leave, then it's not a good thing no matter what party they vote for, or what opinions they have on things in political spheres. I mean like gender allegedly being a social construct, The wage (earnings) gap, etc. I am assuming you think that the idea of a warning is to attempt to change behaviour not eject them from the community? I am assuming that AVEN takes responsibility for it's actions and the consequences of them? And if this is the case why has no one even bothered to find out what are the effects are of the actions AVEN takes? How can people possibly keep saying that certain things happen, and happen in a fair manner, when even AVEN isn't interested in ensuring this to be the case? The actions of AVEN have REAL implications, for REAL people, in the REAL world. It really should not be up to a group of people hidden away in secret from everyone to be in charge of the whole community and who get to judge who is and who isn't accepted as part of this community, There is a VERY good reason democracy takes place in public, and the legal system does too, and that''s because the second you hide it away is the second it gets corrupted. I really wish someone on the inside of AVEN who actually has access to the data would start to care about what IS ACTUALLY the result of AVENs actions.

 

Don't you think you should really have someone on the team who's actual job is to analyse the way AVEN operates, and at the very least assesses the issues, and makes them known. Is there really no one about who could advise AVEN on actually insuring against institutional bigotry? Again, you cannot blame the users of the site for it's failings. It would be like not putting a disabled toilet in a cafe and telling someone in a wheel chair that it's not our fault they can't walk. It's the system here that's fucked up. Not the people, not the members, not the admins, or the mods, it's the whole system. It has been allowed to become what it has become because those that care mostly leave, and that is something you just shouldn't be proud of. 

 

Please please please just take a look. You have the access, you have the influence, just look for yourself and actually check out if your "feelings" about how ethical AVEN is actually match reality. 

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G0D
1 hour ago, daveb said:

Part of the job of mods, as I see it, (in addition to enforcing the rules for the good of all) is to advocate for members who haven't violated the rules - whether they are victims of others who have or have been reported for things they shouldn't be. Sometimes there's a gray area when it comes to breaches and reports. We have to make judgement calls, and of course bias can creep into that, and that's one reason I prefer not solo modding. I want to get more input when things are uncertain in my mind; maybe other people's insights (and biases) will counterbalance mine or provide enough food for thought to make me rethink my position in any given case.

A moderator should not see themselves as someone who enforces rules. They should see themselves as a guide, the lubrication of the forum. They should spot things going down hill, and with some respectful words stop things getting out of hand before they do. The idea that their are just abusers and victims is just the wrong way to look at human discourse. Sure sometimes there are trolls, and nasty people, but most of the time people get angry from frustration, and being misunderstood.

 

Treating moderating like a traffic policeman just makes things worse, because rivals know if they can antagonise someone the right way they can get a reaction, and they can use that reaction to complain, and play the victim. All that happens is you create an environment where EVERYONE wants to be the victim,

 

One of the worse habits of mods here is the closing of threads, and the green writing, it punishes everyone. 

 

If you create an atmosphere of victims and bullies, and that's the way you see the world, all you will see is victims and bullies. Couple that together with intersectional feminism, and you get a place where the most different gets to be the biggest bully, and the whole machine allows it to happen.

 

Tearing posts apart in the moderator "point and blame" room trying to find reasons why something should break the ToS, and voting on what sort of letter from the internet asexual police force to send is just nuts. It is utterly impersonal, it utterly ignores the context, both of the conversation, and of the relationship. I know I got a warning for something I said to my friend that was utterly meant in jest, and everyone knew it, but ripped from the conversation it could be faulted..

 

ALL you should need to do as a moderator is send someone a polite message, that is friendly and respectful explaining how something could be taken, and how some people might see it the wrong way, and ask them to edit something, and try to tone things down, and it works so well it's unbelievable. 

 

Talking to people who are upset because they think they are being picked on is equally easy, and just taking the time to explain things aren't meant to be hurtful etc it works....

 

What has been created here though is a society that is nasty, and bitter, and holds resentment, and anger for a very long time, and people play games of bating, and subtle harassment, and no one is allowed to actually know their actions are having horrid consequences, and people gang up trying to be offended by someone. It's sick, and nasty, and it's NOT the fault of the members, it's the result of the rules, and how they are implemented and enforced. No one is given the opportunity to apologise, even if they do it means nothing to AVEN. People are cut off from the consequences of their actions, and no one sees any justice being done. AVEN really is by far the worst site I have ever been on for the way it deals with rules, and implementation, and I have been on a LOT of forums. 

 

Moderators should be lazy, and friendly. They should do as little as possible, and allow people to get frustrated and then apologise or walk away. There shouldn't be ways that people can secretly get another user banned, or warned or whatever, It really is amazing that the same issues have been going on for as long as they have, and no ones actually started to even ask the question "Is there a better way to do this"? and actually experiment. 

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G0D
1 hour ago, chandrakirti said:

I'm going to be radical here....as I've had bother with an embittered sexual man, why does aven allow sexuals with an agenda to stomp across every thread and forum?

Why not restrict to educational threads...Asexual Visibility and Education Network... We're no more visible and the sexuals are not being educated if they are allowed to abuse aces.

I am hearing this one so much at the moment, and it's similar to other sentiments I hear about who AVEN actually represents. The voices of those who want to be less inclusive with the definition of asexuality are starting to grow. That and more and more people are getting sick and tired of "Sexual" people getting away with some pretty insane stuff. I say "Getting away" with because the posts remain in place, and the user still posts, so no one has a clue do they.

 

I keep saying this one too "Delete posts, NOT members". AVEN cares way more about punishment than it does about actually removing offensive posts. You know AVEN doesn't meet the standards it expects from other sites if they are to appear on the site links thing... Oddly the only site that does meet it's requirements isn't on there, and that because AVEN is fair, and doesn't do things that are personal.. Oh wait... I got that wrong didn't I.. No it's not there because someone lied a lot about Lord Grep, and now AVEN doesn't like anything he does no matter how well meant it is because yeah... The ToS, and AVEN rules.. (If anyone really wants a laugh look for AS-NS in declass)

 

Sorry I got carried away with myself. Yeah... Just delete the stuff that's offensive, and ask people to play nice. Make warnings things you really have to put the work in to get, 

 

Please AVEN.. I am not here to just moan at you. I just want everyone to be treated fairly, and for people to have fun and get along as best as they can. Some of us really do feel like we are treated like NPCs in the game the moderators are playing. 

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SithEmpress

I agree. I thought it was just me because of the break I was on. This break wasn't inspired by anything AVEn related, but my first one was since I got a warning and was too emotional to take it to heart and just left the space entirely to calm down. I've also heard from others this is a thing. 

So when I got a message from a Mod saying they edited my comment to remove the offensive word (I totally agree that I shouldn't have used it), I was surprised I wasn't given another warning. My old one has long expired, but the three strikes rule would still probably make me leave the site for a few months. 

 

I am all in favor of AVEN growing and changing to be more welcoming of people. I also acknowledge there are minors that use this site and outright hateful people shouldn't be allowed to spread too much vitrial. But so far I'm happy with the changes I've noticed.

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MichaelTannock
1 hour ago, G0D said:

Do the study then. Publish it, and allow the community to discuss it. Select all the nudges and warnings get the date they were issued, and see when the users last post was. Then publish the full results that is inclusive of any other discipline. What would be most interesting would be discipline given to members within the first month of activity, and how long after the intervention the users last post was. If you want to get an idea, just go to declass find a warning, get the date, and then look at the date of their last post.  Everyone I found when I looked had a last post date at about the same time as the warning was issued.

I will need to get permission to conduct the study and publish the results, but I don't see that as a problem if I use what has been declassified, though it may take some time to do.

 

1 hour ago, G0D said:

You might want to actually think about what percentage of people is an acceptable number to treat a warning as a reason to leave. You could pull that number out of the air, or work out a value based on the average time spent on AVEN... 

I'd feel more comfortable doing the latter, given how subjective the former would be.

 

1 hour ago, G0D said:

I would be MORE than happy to join the AVEN team, and actually carry out that study, and a whole heap of others. Because so far in the years I have been banging on and on about this no one has said they have even done the simple process of checking some random declass warnings and the last post date to get an idea. 

As I recall, you ran for a moderator position? I encourage you to run again if you're not already.

 

1 hour ago, G0D said:

I am not going to post any examples because I will just be accused of cherry picking, and besides, I really want you guys to see for yourself, and actually care about the result. 

Probably, so fair enough.

 

12 minutes ago, G0D said:

If you are the same Michael that I spent a while talking to about the whole stalking AS-NS thing, then I have actually put this point to you a couple of times before... 

I don't know if it's me you're thinking of or not. We have spoken, but there's another Michael on the Admod team that you could have spoken to as well.

 

16 minutes ago, G0D said:

I am assuming that you accept the premise that if warnings actually cause people to leave, then it's not a good thing no matter what party they vote for, or what opinions they have on things in political spheres. I mean like gender allegedly being a social construct, The wage (earnings) gap, etc.

I don't know, because I want people to want to stay, but I also want people to want to abide by the ToS, and if someone leaves because of a warning, it seems like they don't want to stay because they don't want to abide by the ToS.

 

30 minutes ago, G0D said:

I am assuming you think that the idea of a warning is to attempt to change behaviour not eject them from the community?

Yes, I do think that the idea of a warning is to attempt to change behaviour not eject them from the community.

 

32 minutes ago, G0D said:

I am assuming that AVEN takes responsibility for it's actions and the consequences of them?

I believe so, but I can only speak for myself with certainty, and I definitely do.

 

34 minutes ago, G0D said:

And if this is the case why has no one even bothered to find out what are the effects are of the actions AVEN takes?

I don't know if no one has done that, but assuming no one has, it would probably have been because no one within the Admod team saw such a problem.

 

40 minutes ago, G0D said:

How can people possibly keep saying that certain things happen, and happen in a fair manner, when even AVEN isn't interested in ensuring this to be the case?

I think AVEN is interested in ensuring that things are fair, and the impression that some have of AVEN being unfair and uninterested is the result of limited information.

 

43 minutes ago, G0D said:

The actions of AVEN have REAL implications, for REAL people, in the REAL world. It really should not be up to a group of people hidden away in secret from everyone to be in charge of the whole community and who get to judge who is and who isn't accepted as part of this community, There is a VERY good reason democracy takes place in public, and the legal system does too, and that''s because the second you hide it away is the second it gets corrupted. I really wish someone on the inside of AVEN who actually has access to the data would start to care about what IS ACTUALLY the result of AVENs actions.

Our actions have real implications for real people, and those people have a real right to privacy. There is a very good reason why in a Democracy you aren't required to tell someone who you voted for, and in the legal system, you're not allowed to discuss the details of a case outside of court, and that's why we give Declassification time to work, so people are protected as much as possible without hiding everything away.

 

56 minutes ago, G0D said:

Don't you think you should really have someone on the team who's actual job is to analyse the way AVEN operates, and at the very least assesses the issues, and makes them known. Is there really no one about who could advise AVEN on actually insuring against institutional bigotry?

I'm pretty sure we already have those people as Admins.

 

58 minutes ago, G0D said:

Again, you cannot blame the users of the site for it's failings. It would be like not putting a disabled toilet in a cafe and telling someone in a wheel chair that it's not our fault they can't walk. It's the system here that's fucked up. Not the people, not the members, not the admins, or the mods, it's the whole system. It has been allowed to become what it has become because those that care mostly leave, and that is something you just shouldn't be proud of. 

It's more like putting a disabled toilet in a cafe, and when someone in a wheelchair can't use it because someone who's not disabled was using it instead of the free non-disabled toilets, the person in a wheelchair complains to you, and then the non-disabled person complains about the whole cafe when you tell them off.

 

1 hour ago, G0D said:

Please please please just take a look. You have the access, you have the influence, just look for yourself and actually check out if your "feelings" about how ethical AVEN is actually match reality. 

I don't know how much influence I have, but I will look.

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G0D

@MichaelTannock firstly.. Thank you  for your response It actually gives me a lot of hope to see someone actually taking this seriously, and thanks for not just dunking what I have to say is the rantings of some bitter trouble maker. I care a great deal about AVEN, and the asexual community, I'll try to be slightly less verbose on this one. 

 

I agree with much of what you have said. I very nearly did stand for election this time round, but I really couldn't give the roll and this site a promise that I wouldn't just do another vanishing act. Also you know how many people here really dislike me don't you? I mean really dislike me. someone did a study on the asexual movement, and my name came up, and oh boy, they really wanted to know why everyone on AVEN hates me. <grin>. I don't really care yeah it would be nice to be appreciated, but I would rather be honest, and myself, rather than lie and be loved. Aaaaany way.... I might stand again for a joke some time see if I can get no votes at all. 

 

Ok, so the bits I would like to contest, or further discuss.

36 minutes ago, MichaelTannock said:

There is a very good reason why in a Democracy you aren't required to tell someone who you voted for, and in the legal system, you're not allowed to discuss the details of a case outside of court, and that's why we give Declassification time to work, so people are protected as much as possible without hiding everything away.

I would agree, but the idea of democracy is that we secretly vote for people to represent us, that part is fair, and we are asking for people to work in our interest. That is where the secrecy stops, for exactly the same reason I have a problem with AVEN is exactly the reason politics happens in the open.

 

How are we the people supposed to know who to vote for, and hold those people to their promises if we can't see the way they voted. All levels of AVEN happen in secrecy. The BoD, and the mod team. actually there isn't any part of any decision making that happens in plane site. It's the mods who have all the power, and no one is allowed to hold any of them individually or as a whole to account. How do I know in a re-election if I want to vote for someone when I have no idea what so ever how they have voted? This place masquerades as a democracy but in effect it's a one party state with a model that is WAY more communist than it is democratic. 

 

I don't know where on earth you get the idea that cases can't be heard outside of court. In the UK, they are public, and anyone can go and sit through them, and they are reported upon. It is the bedrock of modern society and justice that courts be public, and both the witnesses and defendant can apart from VERY rare cases can be identified. Also it is the tradition in many countries and even religions that an accused can face an accuser, and BOTH parties have the right to representation, and appeal. AVEN just has the tiniest of nods to that with appeals, I mean I am sorry (really) to say this but AVENs appeal process is a total joke. 5 years and only 2 people have ever won an appeal. It's just a way to look like AVEN is something that smells a little fair, but it's only cos they used ferbrese "fair" to hide the smell of what's really going on... I know... I was being so respectful, but I just had to go there.

 

No.. Democracy, and a fair justice system is about as far as it's possible to get from AVEN. Even where there are groups that need to remain secret in most countries there are elected regulators, and checks and balances, It's never ok to say "Oh just trust us", and say "cool"... We can even see the effects of how it breads corruption with those that are friends with moderators getting help, and avoiding things. 

 

I can see cases where it might be right to hold something in private, but not giving the person accused any opportunity to put across a defence, and then assuming the worst possible interpretation seems to me worse than show trials, At least with show trials everyone knew they were a sham, here people actually think it's a good idea to accuse people of thought crimes based on the worst possible interpretation of their words, and on the other hand those who seem to hold a more politically correct mindset are interpreted differently. It's really just not good enough for anyone to just say "nah it's all fair", because their must be dozens and dozens of utterly bonkers warnings out their. It really is no way to conduct things. It's almost OK if it's a private company, and I wouldn't mind so much if AVEN just said "We are a private company who lets people talk around the subject of asexuality. It's MUCH more than that, and a claim to represent a group REALLY needs to show that is what it does.

 

It had crossed my mind that the reason AVEN looked like it was changing was because of something I mentioned to a couple of people about UK law, and the fact that AVEN could easily be sued for discrimination. Negligence isn't a defence for institutionalised bigotry, and someone with a few quid, and an axe to grind could wipe this place of the face of the internet. 

 

God I am sorry I am more verbose than usual tonight.. Let me answer the rest quick.. It was the public/private thing I really disagreed with. 

1 hour ago, MichaelTannock said:
2 hours ago, G0D said:

Don't you think you should really have someone on the team who's actual job is to analyse the way AVEN operates, and at the very least assesses the issues, and makes them known. Is there really no one about who could advise AVEN on actually insuring against institutional bigotry?

I'm pretty sure we already have those people as Admins.

Nah... from what I have seen they don't actually have the power to really do anything, and the admin roll isn't one that is clearly described anywhere. It's yet more hush hush BS.. Again another thing that just shouldn't be the case. People vote for someone to be a mod... But after that they get to be anything without the need for election. The secrecy in this place really does just add to it's problems, and doesn't help AVENs case at all. 

 

1 hour ago, MichaelTannock said:
2 hours ago, G0D said:

Again, you cannot blame the users of the site for it's failings. It would be like not putting a disabled toilet in a cafe and telling someone in a wheel chair that it's not our fault they can't walk. It's the system here that's fucked up. Not the people, not the members, not the admins, or the mods, it's the whole system. It has been allowed to become what it has become because those that care mostly leave, and that is something you just shouldn't be proud of. 

It's more like putting a disabled toilet in a cafe, and when someone in a wheelchair can't use it because someone who's not disabled was using it instead of the free non-disabled toilets, the person in a wheelchair complains to you, and then the non-disabled person complains about the whole cafe when you tell them off.

I think I need to draw a cartoon to follow that one.. But yeah, blaming the membership of a group for the failings of management decisions is a bit daft.. 

 

1 hour ago, MichaelTannock said:

I don't know how much influence I have, but I will look.

Thank you... I would do the whole study myself but no one would care at all or trust it if it came from me. I have learned the hard way that if I do something it'll get rejected. It's why I keep trying to get someone else to take over the running of ASM. I want it to flourish, but being my baby well y-know...  

 

Nice chat... Thanks for being so reasonable... It's a pleasure, it really is. 

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user23974865
7 hours ago, Sage Raven Domino said:

In case it helps, I'm open to the idea of a 'vote of confidence' where AVEN members with the right to vote (not only the admods) would decide if I've violated the ToS, and the poll results would be legally binding with no right to appeal.

Oh please no... Anything but that. I realize the intention is good but... Please no! 😱

 

People should not be constantly concerned with political matters, big or small. Polarized politics is what happens when they are.

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user23974865
8 hours ago, DuskFire said:

So maybe it would be good to have a warning when entering the hotbox when clicking on a post?

Not sure if the software allows it, but maybe a different color for those links, and a message the first time the user enters that part of the site? Like "hey, if you just want to goof around and relax, maybe don't come here right now", with a "don't display this message again" option or something.

 

---

 

Oh! Another suggestion: I think it should be easier to add someone to your ignore list. I could find the option after looking harder for it (don't remember anymore where it was though), but I couldn't find it when I needed it.

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