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catra

Trump thinks the democratic party is anti-jew

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catra

has anyone else seen that video clip (like, on CNN) of Trump calling the democratic party anti-israel and anti-jew because of Ilhan Ohmar’s recent anti-semitic comments? don’t get me wrong, Ilhan’s comments were completely insensitive and rude, but i don’t think it’s fair to group the whole party as anti-jew because one member made rude comments. if he claimed other members were saying anti-semitic things (with proof of course) he’d have a little more ground, but even then he shouldn’t lump the entire party together.

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Galactic Turtle

Politics are a dumpster fire anyway. US-Israel-Palestine-Russia-Syria relations are arguably twice the dumpster fire that people avoid talking about at all costs. Also it's Trump. There are lots of things he shouldn't say or do. In other words, everything is business as usual.

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catra
Just now, Galactic Turtle said:

Politics are a dumpster fire anyway. US-Israel-Palestine-Russia-Syria relations are arguably twice the dumpster fire that people avoid talking about at all costs. Also it's Trump. There are lots of things he shouldn't say or do. In other words, everything is business as usual.

yeah, you’re exactly right. i just wanted to see if other people heard about how much of a mess he is

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Galactic Turtle
Just now, catra said:

yeah, you’re exactly right. i just wanted to see if other people heard about how much of a mess he is

I assure you, the entire world probably knows too much about this particular presidency even if they don't want to. XD

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catra
2 minutes ago, Galactic Turtle said:

I assure you, the entire world probably knows too much about this particular presidency even if they don't want to. XD

lmaooo, true 

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Scottthespy

Well, there were the leaders of the Woman's March, which Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez enthusiastically attended even after many sponsors and attendees dropped out, who were discovered to carry and express some pretty anti-semetic opinions and beliefs. Thing is, its not the whole party, just a couple of the fringe far left who are getting farther and farther away from the main party which would like to move back towards center a little. 

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catra
16 minutes ago, Scottthespy said:

Well, there were the leaders of the Woman's March, which Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez enthusiastically attended even after many sponsors and attendees dropped out, who were discovered to carry and express some pretty anti-semetic opinions and beliefs. Thing is, its not the whole party, just a couple of the fringe far left who are getting farther and farther away from the main party which would like to move back towards center a little. 

yeah, you’re right, the women’s march was horribly anti-semitic and no one really did anything for a long while. but, trump didn’t mention that, he only referenced Ilhan. also, i didn’t know AOC attended. that sucks, i really liked her.

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user23974865
2 hours ago, Galactic Turtle said:

I assure you, the entire world probably knows too much about this particular presidency even if they don't want to. XD

On the one hand, it's in our best interest to stay informed. On the other hand, information doesn't seem very informative these days.

 

As you put it: "What do"...

 

I actually told my parents: "I know it's tempting, but please don't tell me about bad news that I already expect and that don't warrant a concrete response from me."

 

The other day the president posted porn on his official Twitter account, allegedly to express his outrage at it. I wish I didn't know that. I didn't have to know that...

 

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firewallflower

Jewish Democrat here.

 

Yes, antisemitism (and, especially, veiled antisemitism in the guise of anti-Zionism... which, for the record, is not synonymous with all criticism of the Israeli government) is a serious reality. Unfortunately—and, to me, both frighteningly and alienatingly—it is on the rise among some (emphasis on some) sectors of the political left. (Looks like the Women's March was already mentioned above, so I won't rehash that prominent example, but yeah, there were definitely issues in the leadership there.) In addition to specific political figures who have (unwittingly or otherwise) individually made such offensive statements, there is an increasing tendency within much of the party in general, I think, to shift away from the historical alliance with Jewry. That is real and distressing.

 

BUT it does not mean that the Democratic party is itself "anti-Jew"—and if it is, then goodness knows what that makes the Republican party. (At least the left seems overall to have the grace to be less overt about its antisemitism.) And, this antisemitic rise being found across political boundaries, I'd say (disclaimer: this is just my impression, I haven't actually done any research) it's more of matter of social trends (albeit fueled by political context... notably, IMHO, Trump), not necessarily politics in and of themselves.

 

Not articulating myself well today, but I hope this makes at least a bit of sense? But anyhow, yeah. At risk of coming across as biased, alarm bells honestly tend to go off in my head when I find myself even sort of agreeing with something Trump has said. In this case, if he happened to stumble on a grain of the truth, that doesn't mean much to me. I doubt he said it because he particularly believes it, or particularly believes it matters—just that he believes it will further his own image.

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user23974865

What is it about "the Jews!!!!" that almost random people here and there (and, from time to time, also larger groups associated with those people) keep coming back to again and again? It's easy to understand if someone thinks Israel is "plotting something", because they almost surely are (and so is the US, Russia, China, and so on -- it's what ambitious countries do). But it's not even "Israel" being singled out, it's "the Jews"...

 

Why are people so morbidly and persistently obsessed with that one segment of the world population? I really don't get it.

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firewallflower
47 minutes ago, burobu said:

What is it about "the Jews!!!!" that almost random people here and there (and, from time to time, also larger groups associated with those people) keep coming back to again and again? It's easy to understand if someone thinks Israel is "plotting something", because they almost surely are (and so is the US, Russia, China, and so on -- it's what ambitious countries do). But it's not even "Israel" being singled out, it's "the Jews"...

 

Why are people so morbidly and persistently obsessed with that one segment of the world population? I really don't get it.

I don't know exactly, but whatever it is, it goes back some thousands of years. Recurring theme throughout history: When in doubt, blame the Jews. 🤷‍♀️

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AspieAlly613

*sigh*  Just because President Trump says something, that doesn't mean he believes that it's true.  It means he believes it will raise his popularity.

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Mysticus Insanus

I don't think Ilhan's comments were antisemitic. The only time she made me cringe was with the "Benjamins" wording; her criticism of what Israel is doing, of Netanyahu, and of AIPAC are spot on, and urgently needed to be brought up.

 

Criticizing "the Jews" is antisemitic (she has, to my knowledge, never done that).

Questioning the right of Israel to exist as a state is antisemitic (she has not done that either).

 

Criticizing a far-right, violently racist aspiring dicator like Netanyahu, and saying the US should not be supporting, his politics is not antisemitic in any way. People who claim it were are wrong, even if they are Jewish (like I said in the other thread - just because someone is offended does not make something offensive); being Jewish does not automatically make one right about the claim of antisemitism. Sometimes, it really is just people playing the victim card in order to get away with shit - including, literally, with murder.

 

I applaud Ilhan for not allowing others to silence her. It's good the Dems didn't cave in to calls for censure, no matter how much the GOPs throw a (thoroughly hypocritical) hissy fit.

 

 

What's bizarre to me, especially as a German, is how "that's antisemitism!" has managed to become a far-right, islamophobic dogwhistle. It feels out of nowhere. But I'll stand against islamophobia, even against islamophobic Jews - it's hard to do this as a German gentile, but I think it must be done especially as a German. I come from the land of Hitler; staying silent against someone like Netanyahu would be unconscionable.

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AspieAlly613

I think it's important to note the differences in how Democratic Jews view Congresswoman Omar's comments and President Obama's comments, which were also critical of the settlement movement turning the occupation into illegal conquest.  President Obama acknowledged that between Israel and Palestine, Palestine is the greater war criminal.  Congresswoman Omar does not make it clear that this is her position.

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Mysticus Insanus
1 minute ago, AspieAlly613 said:

I think it's important to note the differences in how Democratic Jews view Congresswoman Omar's comments and President Obama's comments, which were also critical of the settlement movement turning the occupation into illegal conquest.  President Obama acknowledged that between Israel and Palestine, Palestine is the greater war criminal.  Congresswoman Omar does not make it clear that this is her position.

This, I think, is reasonable criticism of Ilhan Omar.

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Sally

No, the Democratic party per se is not anti-Semitic.

 

Yes, Omar's comments felt anti-Semitic to many Jews (me included), because they are reminiscent of many of the anti-Semitic tropes throughout history (including the "dual loyalty" business, which has been said for at least a thousand years).  And in all the years I've been watching American politics, I've never seen a first-time congressperson immediately go to the anti-Israel, anti-AIPAC trope.  It wasn't what she was elected for.  

 

And the leftists -- especially the leftists on  university campuses -- in America are becoming  moreand more anti-Israel shading into anti-Semitic.  

 

This is an issue where I think American Jews probably have more credible opinions than non-Jews, especially non-American non-Jews (and I'm saying that to you and probably others, Mysticus).  We are frightened by all of this.  She can keep saying what she wants to, of course, but before you decide that no, what she says is completely innocent and harmless, listen to us.  We know that unless Netanyahu is kicked out, he's going to make Israel unsafe for Jews.  But we thought we were finally safe in America.  Apparently not.  

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user23974865
13 minutes ago, Sally said:

(including the "dual loyalty" business, which has been said for at least a thousand years)

I think the real problem with that is that any country would be demanding loyalty from its people to begin with. It should go the other way around.

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Mysticus Insanus

@Sally Of course you aren't safe in America. It's just bizarre that you think the left is the reason for that instead of the right, when the right is literally marching with swastika flags shouting Nazi slogans, shooting up synagogues, and presenting Christian Rabbis ("Messianic Jews") to give prayer in the name of the jewish victims of violence.

 

Omar, instead, just said "maybe we shouldn't support that murderous asshole, nor tacitly accept being imposed to stay silent on his crimes by the power of lobbyists." If you call that antisemitism, then even as a gentile I will tell you no, it's not. It's really, really not. It's just a solid, ethically sound assessment. It's fair to expected to learn to deal with it, just it's fair to expect Muslims to deal with having fact-based criticisms raised about Islamic countries. Your feelings are your responsibility, not Omar's and not mine.

 

 

35 minutes ago, Sally said:

This is an issue where I think American Jews probably have more credible opinions than non-Jews, especially non-American non-Jews (and I'm saying that to you and probably others, Mysticus).  We are frightened by all of this.  She can keep saying what she wants to, of course, but before you decide that no, what she says is completely innocent and harmless, listen to us.

I've listened. I hear what you say, I accept that you feel this way, but I do not accept your assessment based on your feelings, and I outright reject the claim to authority due to identity. You being an American Jewish woman does not, per se, make your view more valid than mine. Facts and logic, not feelings, please.

 

 

BTW, facts are that Farrakhan is a rabid antisemite, and an uncomfortable number of Leftists don't sufficiently distance themselves from him (looking at you, Linda Sarsour).

Fact is also that BDS, while its base criticism is solid and not per se antisemitic, has a big problem with antisemites in its midst, and uncritical support for BDS as a whole is naive at best, despicable at worst.

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Sally
22 minutes ago, Mysticus Insanus said:

@Sally Of course you aren't safe in America. It's just bizarre that you think the left is the reason for that instead of the right, when the right is literally marching with swastika flags shouting Nazi slogans, shooting up synagogues, and presenting Christian Rabbis ("Messianic Jews") to give prayer in the name of the jewish victims of violence.

 

Omar, instead, just said "maybe we shouldn't support that murderous asshole, nor tacitly accept being imposed to stay silent on his crimes by the power of lobbyists." If you call that antisemitism, then even as a gentile I will tell you no, it's not. It's really, really not. It's just a solid, ethically sound assessment. It's fair to expected to learn to deal with it, just it's fair to expect Muslims to deal with having fact-based criticisms raised about Islamic countries. Your feelings are your responsibility, not Omar's and not mine.

 

 

I've listened. I hear what you say, I accept that you feel this way, but I do not accept your assessment based on your feelings, and I outright reject the claim to authority due to identity. You being an American Jewish woman does not, per se, make your view more valid than mine. Facts and logic, not f/eelings, please.

 

 

 

You may accept it or not accept it, Mysticus.  But the facts and logic you presented in your last paragraph (which I didn't include above) are of course known to me, and certainly contribute to my feelings.  You live in Germany, which until recently was the best European country for Jews.  It still is, but only because the other European countries have become so much more unsafe for Jews.  And I absolutely claim my view is more valid than yours on this issue, because you do not live in the US, and you have not  experienced what I have.  What I said about Germany above is all I can say; I would not claim anything else because it would be based on second-hand knowledge, which might be nonfactual.  

 

I did not say that the left frightens me more  than the right.  However, Jews have always counted on the left to be their friends in the US.  That no longer is the case.  As far as what you claim Omar said, your quote is nonfactual.  She said a number of things, including "It's all about the Benjamins, baby" (another anti-Semitic trope), but not that.  

 

I hope we won't continue this conversation, because it's distressing.  

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user23974865
8 minutes ago, Sally said:

"It's all about the Benjamins, baby"

Honestly, if someone really said that sentence word by word, I don't see how there could be any ambiguity on whether there's antisemitism involved. And as I've said in another thread:

 

Quote

If a public figure so much as refers to a [Jewish-related issue] without showing particular care to be as tactful as possible, that already sends a certain implied message, and politicians are aware of it. If it happens by accident, they'll apologize. (Note that disavowing isn't the same as apologizing.)

 

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Mysticus Insanus
8 minutes ago, Sally said:

As far as what you claim Omar said, your quote is nonfactual.  She said a number of things, including "It's all about the Benjamins, baby" (another anti-Semitic trope), but not that.  

I paraphrased.

And as I said above already: the "Benjamins" wording made me cringe.

 

8 minutes ago, Sally said:

I hope we won't continue this conversation, because it's distressing.  

Then let's end it here; it's already obvious agree to disagree will be the best possible outcome, and even though I vehemently disagree with you on this, causing you distress is not my goal.

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Skycaptain

Simples. The world is, quite rightly, concerned that there may be a rise in antisemitism. Not just in the USA, but getting people to think your opponents are antisemitic will get you votes. Just take care when choosing this weapon that it isn't a boomerang though

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user23974865
1 minute ago, Skycaptain said:

Just take care when choosing this weapon that it isn't a boomerang though

I think it usually is. The question though is whether it will hit back the boomerang-thrower soon enough.

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iff

I think there is antisemitic factions in both democrats and republican. Trump's "very fine people" in CharlottesvoIlle were chanting antisemitic chants. The libertarian republican Ron Paul has also tweeted antisemitic tweets

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user23974865
11 minutes ago, iff said:

I think there is antisemitic factions in both democrats and republican. Trump's "very fine people" in CharlottesvoIlle were chanting antisemitic chants. The libertarian republican Ron Paul has also tweeted antisemitic tweets

That's what baffles me. It's like those loonies just spring out of nowhere anywhere, with no rhyme or reason. And then some of them have soap boxes and megaphones.

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Lonemathsytoothbrushthief

I'm glad I don't support any political party in situations like this(in general now my policy is, vote for the non fascist  if fascists are popping up but don't waste your energy handing out leaflets for someone whose politics will sooner or later turn out to be a bit repulsive). In the specific case of Ilhan Omar, it seems fairly obvious to me that on the one hand many right wingers will be biased against her more than other anti semites because of her own race, but at the same time leftists in many cases are biased towards defending her because of who her prejudice was directed at. But more broadly, I may be non Jewish and uninformed about a number of things but incidents like this often provoke other non Jewish leftists to say that there's some sort of smear campaign against a particular party and...I just don't believe that's the case. There's usually already been enough other anti Semitism that has gone unchallenged before someone manages to make an actual case against a political party. We had this with the UK's Labour party, and to be frank it's one reason not to like Jeremy Corbyn. When it comes down to it, in these politicians' minds I think populism wins out over a careful discussion of the issue without being bigoted whenever they start talking about support for Israel.

 

Edit: I realise these conversations should be focused on anti Semitism and NOT the actions of Israel. Ilhan Omar was accused of this because she used dogwhistles against Jews and not because of criticising one of the many states which the US supports. I guess I'm included in this problem where non Jewish leftists have ended up thinking they know a lot about Israel but not knowing enough about anti Semitism in general to challenge it properly 😕 anyway since I don't think this thread should be about the whole Israel focused leftist anti Semitism I deleted the stuff about global politics, which is more or less that I see why Jews would be uncomfortable and feel unsafe around leftists, and that if leftists want to do our part to support Muslims in other nations we should also focus on the many cases of this in which Israel doesn't play a role.

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firewallflower
9 hours ago, Mysticus Insanus said:

Of course you aren't safe in America. It's just bizarre that you think the left is the reason for that instead of the right, when the right is literally marching with swastika flags shouting Nazi slogans, shooting up synagogues, and presenting Christian Rabbis ("Messianic Jews") to give prayer in the name of the jewish victims of violence.

Yes, but see, it's not an either/or issue. As has been mentioned (by myself and others), antisemitism is on the rise across political parties, from Charlottesville to graffiti to Pittsburgh to MLK Day justice rallies that turn into chanting about the annihalation of Israel. (I've been to one of those.) Personally, my impression is that antisemites on the right are more likely to actively want me dead than antisemites on the left. So yeah, that's what makes me feel more unsafe.

But the thing is... I don't want to say I expect that from (some of) the right, but I kind of expect that from (some of) the right. The left, though... as @Sally stated above, in the past, we've depended on the left to be on our side when we are threatened. When that changes, it means that we no longer have a party that we can count on to take our part. And when you're already a minority people love to hate... yeah, not to place feeling over fact, but that is downright scary.

 

Plenty of antisemitism to go round for everyone. :)

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Perspektiv

Trump loves milking quotes taken out of context from opponents, but fights to silence pinpoint accurate ones that have come from his own mouth. 

 

He is a distraction artist. I give him full credit on that. 

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Nanoic

In Britain the Labour party has been criticised for failing to deal with anti-semitism in it's party, some Labour MPs and Conservatives left to form the independent group but it was mainly over brexit policy and partly to do with this. Later the conservative party suspended MPs for setting up an islamaphobia Facebook group.

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