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1 in 3 women experience pain during intercourse

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Telecaster68

Yep, I was trying to narrow down exactly who @RocknRoll_Doll felt superior to.

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anamikanon
Just now, Telecaster68 said:

It's also assuming that the entire point of PIV is orgasm, and it ain't.

For men, it isn't, because the orgasm is virtually guaranteed for most. For women, if PIV is the dominant action, the man better be good with his P or it isn't all that different from having an asexual routinely arouse you but not getting release.

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Telecaster68
Just now, RocknRoll_Doll said:

riiiiight

I'm sure men would keep having PIV sex if they had a 75% chance of not orgasming.... very sure

Surely placiosexual men would?

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Telecaster68
Just now, anamikanon said:

For men, it isn't, because the orgasm is virtually guaranteed for most. For women, if PIV is the dominant action, the man better be good with his P or it isn't all that different from having an asexual routinely arouse you but not getting release.

There are other ways to get a woman off.

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ryn2

(this was answering anamikanon’s post about how things are stated - I didn’t quote originally and now I can’t)

 

In my case, in my most recent relationship, I’d say it was a mix.

 

Some (most) conversations were not during sex and started as “what do you enjoy,” in which case I would list off specifics in a positive way (by which I mean “I really like x,” rather than “I like x better than y”).

 

The ones that started during sex were probably critical-sounding because they were either “do you like [what I am doing],” which was typically “no,” or something hurting where I’d ask to stop.

 

I found if I said “do more of that” or “I really like that” during sex whatever I mentioned became the go-to magic thing that was expected to work every time, and if I later didn’t react as though I liked it and/or asked to stop it he would be confused and upset about my changing my mind.

 

We had many not-in-bed, non-argument conversations about how different things can appeal at different times but it never seemed to help in the moment.

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anamikanon
Just now, Telecaster68 said:

There are other ways to get a woman off.

Exactly.

 

I rest my case.

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Telecaster68
1 minute ago, anamikanon said:

Exactly.

 

I rest my case.

Presumably that doesn't mean you'd only ever want to fuck if an orgasm was guaranteed that way though?

 

I'm not proposing the guy orgasms then rolls over. I'm saying if he can't get a woman off with fucking, he should do it another way.

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anamikanon
1 minute ago, ryn2 said:

The ones that started during sex were probably critical-sounding because they were either “do you like [what I am doing],” which was typically “no,” or something hurting where I’d ask to stop.

Not liking something doesn't have to be critical. Criticism is about the other. You can say I don't like this so much, can we do that instead?

 

1 minute ago, ryn2 said:

I found if I said “do more of that” or “I really like that” during sex whatever I mentioned became the go-to magic thing that was expected to work every time, and if I later didn’t react as though I liked it and/or asked to stop it he would be confused and upset about my changing my mind.

Lost track of the number of times I've told a man "I can't get off like this. It isn't working" during PIV sex. As long as it is me not being able to get off, it doesn't bother them. I usually get offers for other things which may work better, which I can accept or suggest something else.

 

My golden rule for communication is to state MY state rather than comment on what they did.

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Telecaster68
Just now, anamikanon said:

As long as it is me not being able to get off, it doesn't bother them.

I know I'm slightly at a disadvantage here, having never slept with a man, but I honestly find it hard to believe that most men really don't care about getting their partner off, even if just as a matter of male pride.

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anamikanon
1 minute ago, Telecaster68 said:

Presumably that doesn't mean you'd only ever want to fuck if an orgasm was guaranteed that way though?

Not sure if this is a question. I don't mind PIV. I can enjoy it. It doesn't get me off, unless the man really knows what he's doing with his P. Here my ace actually scores good now that he's figured out what to do with his P, because he's in no hurry to take off on his own climax. Side-benefits of asexuality.

 

That said, it is way easier to get me off in other ways. PIV is likely to make me sore as often as climax.

 

1 minute ago, Telecaster68 said:

I'm not proposing the guy orgasms then rolls over. I'm saying if he can't get a woman off with fucking, he should do it another way.

That is exactly what we were saying all through. No one is abolishing the holy PIV. We are simply saying it isn't all that mind blowing for women.

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Telecaster68
2 minutes ago, RocknRoll_Doll said:

oh, yes. placio men have no interest in PIV, for obvious reasons.

no placio does because it is a mutual sex act (involves touching of said placio's genitals) that's pretty much a placios 100% no no

 

too bad our overpopulation problem proves there aren't many placios around.

I don't think placio means what you think it does.

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anamikanon
2 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

I know I'm slightly at a disadvantage here, having never slept with a man, but I honestly find it hard to believe that most men really don't care about getting their partner off, even if just as a matter of male pride.

The problem with men - and you may be able to recognize this - is that when the sex gets good, their own need for a climax gets overwhelming and they pretty much "take off" with their thrusts, grinds or whatever they need and have very little ability to focus their actions toward the woman. Once that flight is landed, most of them are pretty wiped and if they are getting sex routinely, there is little reason to go above and beyond to stay awake.

 

To put it mildly, my ace isn't the first man I've been pissed with for being asleep while I'm still aroused. He's merely the only man who manages to do it before his own climax.

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Telecaster68

My actual problem is that @RocknRoll_Doll thinks that women only like PIV because they've been fooled into thinking they do. Most women understand far better than most men that sex is about more than orgasm, in which case there's no reason to write-off PIV, which she was proposing.

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ryn2
22 minutes ago, anamikanon said:

It all depends on how something is said. Anything that seems to lead to a "right answer" can make someone feel cornered if that isn't their answer. Leave enough space to really hear their answer, and it works.

In my case it was kind of flipped around, where I - the closer-to-ace person - was also much more experienced.  My partner claimed to (and perhaps legitimately did) want to do things I enjoyed, but in the end it came across less as that and more as seeking reassurance that what he was already doing was what I enjoyed.

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Telecaster68
1 minute ago, RocknRoll_Doll said:

lol

you need to read up

Blimey took a me a while to figure it out this time.

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anisotrophic

Bisexual men exist.

 

Penetrative sex doesn't have to end in orgasm for a male partner, but I think it's considerate to let that happen.

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Telecaster68
1 minute ago, anamikanon said:

Once that flight is landed, most of them are pretty wiped and if they are getting sex routinely, there is little reason to go above and beyond to stay awake.

The reason would be making sure your lover has a good time too. I'm honestly shocked that the proportion of shitty male lovers is apparently so high.

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anamikanon
1 minute ago, Telecaster68 said:

My actual problem is that @RocknRoll_Doll thinks that women only like PIV because they've been fooled into thinking they do. Most women understand far better than most men that sex is about more than orgasm, in which case there's no reason to write-off PIV, which she was proposing.

Can't speak for most women, but for me, I was a lot more excited about PIV sex when I was new to sex. It was SEX, right? And it felt good, etc. Plus all those positions and stuff to try that you've read about... With more experience, orgasms started mattering and I got interested in better ways to achieve them. With still more experience, I was too old for sex for the heck of it and now I do PIV pretty much because the man likes it and I enjoy it, but there had better be my orgasm too. Whether with P or whatever.

 

So yes, for me at least, the interest in PIV was much much higher when I was younger.

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ryn2
9 minutes ago, anamikanon said:

My golden rule for communication is to state MY state rather than comment on what they did.

I *think* this is what I was doing but there’s no way to test it now. I’m sure there are times I sounded exasperated, though, because I was.  It wasn’t even about getting off, it was about not doing things that were unpleasantly painful or would cause me problems later.

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anamikanon
2 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

The reason would be making sure your lover has a good time too. I'm honestly shocked that the proportion of shitty male lovers is apparently so high.

You may want to consider your unique perspective of someone who spent two decades with an asexual, thirsting for sex.

 

Most men get laid routinely and sex is not that big a deal. There are considerate men, but routines have this thing about being largely comfortable, on auto-pilot and thoughtless for the most part. But even the most considerate man will have times when he's simply in his own head, enjoying a pleasurable activity and done.

 

Frankly, for me it wasn't either, till asexuality hit and suddenly it was a very big deal.

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ryn2
7 minutes ago, anamikanon said:

The problem with men - and you may be able to recognize this - is that when the sex gets good, their own need for a climax gets overwhelming and they pretty much "take off" with their thrusts, grinds or whatever they need and have very little ability to focus their actions toward the woman. Once that flight is landed, most of them are pretty wiped and if they are getting sex routinely, there is little reason to go above and beyond to stay awake.

*nods*

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ryn2
2 minutes ago, anamikanon said:

But even the most considerate man will have times when he's simply in his own head, enjoying a pleasurable activity and done.

Yes, and this seems to be wholly independent of how considerate they are as a whole.

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Telecaster68
2 minutes ago, anamikanon said:

You may want to consider your unique perspective of someone who spent two decades with an asexual, thirsting for sex.

 

Most men get laid routinely and sex is not that big a deal. There are considerate men, but routines have this thing about being largely comfortable, on auto-pilot and thoughtless for the most part. But even the most considerate man will have times when he's simply in his own head, enjoying a pleasurable activity and done.

 

Frankly, for me it wasn't either, till asexuality hit and suddenly it was a very big deal.

Honestly, I genuinely wasn't like that even pre-asexual partner.

 

And yep everyone's on autopilot sometimes, even women. 

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anamikanon
1 minute ago, Telecaster68 said:

And yep everyone's on autopilot sometimes, even women. 

Yes, but a woman being on autopilot won't prevent a man from reaching PIV climax. That is the point.

 

The vice versa is not true. The more the autopilot, the more hopeless it gets for the woman. That is assuming that the man in skilled manual pilot mode is any good at PIV. Or it is all hopeless. In contrast, a woman doesn't have to be "good" at PIV for a man to climax either.

 

It is simply how the climaxes work, not a conspiracy to defame heterosexual men.

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ryn2
6 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

And yep everyone's on autopilot sometimes, even women. 

At least with the guys I’ve slept with, sometimes is “every time orgasm nears.”

 

When it comes to pride, the confident ones don’t even think to wonder if anyone else is having fun and the not-confident ones have to focus and hurry so as not to lose their erections before the finish line.

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ryn2
Just now, anamikanon said:

Yes, but a woman being on autopilot won't prevent a man from reaching PIV climax. That is the point.

 

The vice versa is not true. The more the autopilot, the more hopeless it gets for the woman. That is assuming that the man in skilled manual pilot mode is any good at PIV. Or it is all hopeless. In contrast, a woman doesn't have to be "good" at PIV for a man to climax either.

 

It is simply how the climaxes work, not a conspiracy to defame heterosexual men.

This is 100% true.  What most women need (just in terms of physical stimulation) to climax is not anything that happens routinely during PIV sex, and the more the guy is on autopilot the less chance there is of any of it happening.

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Telecaster68
4 minutes ago, anamikanon said:

It is simply how the climaxes work, not a conspiracy to defame heterosexual men.

Well, not intentionally. If you switch genders on the last page or so of this thread (with appropriate anatomical adaptations), would you feel there was a bit of underlying misogyny going on?

 

ETA

 

It's not the sexual mechanics, it's the 'all men are selfish in bed' trope which is pissing me off.

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ryn2
Just now, Telecaster68 said:

would you feel there was a bit of underlying misogyny going on?

The typical motions het men use to masturbate are replicated during PIV sex.  The ones women use are not.  It’s anatomy, not judgment.

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anamikanon
1 minute ago, Telecaster68 said:

Well, not intentionally. If you switch genders on the last page or so of this thread (with appropriate anatomical adaptations), would you feel there was a bit of underlying misogyny going on?

You mean without switching genders, .....?

 

Actually I find this misogyny. That women not appreciating PIV when you do is outraging you so much. 😛 

 

So we don't. So what is the big deal? 

 

If you're good with your penis, and getting a woman to enjoy herself reliably, you have nothing to worry about.

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ryn2
4 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

It's not the sexual mechanics, it's the 'all men are selfish in bed' trope which is pissing me off.

If you’re referring to my post, I can only speak for the men I have had PIV sex with.  They are way too small a sample to extrapolate to all men.  You, personally, may be nothing like them whatsoever.

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