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anisotrophic

Shame about seeking & receiving sex

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Telecaster68
1 minute ago, Traveler40 said:

For years I used to get excited by my husband’s threats/broken promises:

 

”If you keep doing that I will pin you down and have my way with you”  (It literally took me  forever to realize he never meant it.)  

 

That and “Stop that or I’ll have my way with you until your eyes roll.” If I had a dollar for every time he threatened (promised?) sex....

 

The spectrum went from hope, to thrill, confusion, uncertainty, disillusionment, anger, bitterness, acceptance, and eventually landed at “find a lover”.

They're sort of role playing lovers, with no conception that most people actually mean it.

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anamikanon
5 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

I guess asexuals in these kinds of conversations start from not wanting to do any of it at all, so it's all abstract.

 

Kind of a bit like conversations I have with a friend about what we'd do if we were in the Resistance during WW2 and were caught by the Nazis. Would we give up our compatriots' names under torture or not? Fun and interesting conversation, but not coming from any thought we might actually have to do it.

Exactly. You may say you'd be chicken and give up your compatriots or you may say you'd take their names to your mass grave, but it is all a mind game rather than an actual consideration of what YOU WANT to do - which more accurately would be to not be captured by the Nazis. ROFL

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anamikanon
5 minutes ago, Traveler40 said:

For years I used to get excited by my husband’s threats/broken promises:

 

”If you keep doing that I will pin you down and have my way with you”  (It literally took me  forever to realize he never meant it.)  

 

That and “Stop that or I’ll have my way with you until your eyes roll.” If I had a dollar for every time he threatened (promised?) sex....

 

The spectrum went from hope, to thrill, confusion, uncertainty, disillusionment, anger, bitterness, acceptance, and eventually landed at “find a lover”.

Oh god, I've been here. And all the steps after that. Right to the point of "find a lover"...

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anamikanon

What I don't get is where he gets all the creativity from. He says it is just "conditioned" - you read books, watch films, hear people talk.... and that is it. So he can 'get' sexual jokes, innuendo, do all the right sex talk.... and it is a freaking conversational skill or general knowledge or something.

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ryn2
3 minutes ago, anamikanon said:

What I don't get is where he gets all the creativity from. He says it is just "conditioned" - you read books, watch films, hear people talk.... and that is it. So he can 'get' sexual jokes, innuendo, do all the right sex talk.... and it is a freaking conversational skill or general knowledge or something.

I agree with him there.  It’s no harder to learn to talk the talk (and even walk the walk at a surface level) than it is to learn any other role.  The world is full of references for good boss, good audience member, good friend, good child, good sex partner, etc.  If you’re not put off by sex conceptually it’s easy to discuss, make jokes, say the expected stuff, etc.

 

It’s probably more like work roles than theatrical roles, though, because most people know theatrical roles are based in reality whereas it’s reasonable to assume many people are purely acting when it comes to “boss who really cares about your husband’s mother’s bunion” or “employee who genuinely wants to work 25 hours of unpaid OT.”

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Telecaster68
18 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

It’s no harder to learn to talk the talk (and even walk the walk at a surface level) than it is to learn any other role.  The world is full of references for good boss, good audience member, good friend, good child, good sex partner, etc.  If you’re not put off by sex conceptually it’s easy to discuss, make jokes, say the expected stuff, etc.

 

I can understand this completely.

 

What I don't understand is how it can be true and asexuals can have no idea that sex is important to sexuals. Not to share that importance, or empathise, or get it intuitively, but to be able to rationally figure it out, as intelligent, informed people. I don't understand why people are so passionate about soccer, but I don't assume they're pretending.

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CBC

My husband gets sexual humour easily, but totally blanks on being able to participate in discussions with other people... which makes sense if you can't relate to anything. I don't think he could fake that one to save his life. He's told me about conversations from his university years where he just went silent when all his friends started talking about girls and sex.

 

To his credit, he has a very thorough and normal understanding of what sex means to sexual people in the context of a relationship, despite having almost zero innate ability to create any of that... energy... in a natural way himself. Now that our situation is what it is (no longer in a relationship but still living together for practical reasons; I'm certain that will change down the line, of course), he's not active on AVEN anymore (that would be weird as hell; we've agreed this is my space), he frequents various asexual subreddits a lot and tells me about the stuff he comes across there. He recently got a temporary ban on one of them for getting in a fight with someone and being outspoken about some anti-sexual bullshit. (I told him I was proud of him, lol.) He complains about the ignorant stuff he reads all the time. So at least a total lack of understanding was never an issue, but his asexuality and the fact that I'm more or less incapable of full relationships with men were, so. Not a relationship destined to work.

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ryn2
39 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

What I don't understand is how it can be true and asexuals can have no idea that sex is important to sexuals. Not to share that importance, or empathise, or get it intuitively, but to be able to rationally figure it out, as intelligent, informed people. I don't understand why people are so passionate about soccer, but I don't assume they're pretending.

I’m not sure exactly what the difference is, but there is one.

 

Part of it for aces who are okay having sex could be that the aspects you can see - the physicality of sex, the big O and getting there together - aren’t that different.  It’s the emotional pieces you can’t see that are.

 

Also, and we’ve talked about this before, sports fandom is so visible.  We see real people involved all the time.  With sex, we see the media representation out in public but the real people are largely in private.

 

Even for sexuals, from what people regularly say here, the joking and the banter and the public stuff is (or at least appears to be) a bit of a role.  How quick people are with an innuendo and how much they brag about their exploits doesn’t seem to equate to how they see or treat sex in private.

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Telecaster68
1 minute ago, ryn2 said:

I’m not sure exactly what the difference is, but there is one.

 

Part of it for aces who are okay having sex could be that the aspects you can see - the physicality of sex, the big O and getting there together - aren’t that different.  It’s the emotional pieces you can’t see that are.

 

Also, and we’ve talkes about this before, sports fandom is so visible.  We see real people involved all the time.  With sex, we see the media representation out in public but the real people are largely in private.

 

Even for sexuals, from what people regularly say here, the joking and the banter and the public stuff is (or at least appears to be) a bit of a role.  How quick people are with an innuendo and how much they brag about their exploits doesn’t seem to equate to how they see or treat sex in private.

But all of those things are still pointing to sex being important, whatever the detail, public/private differences. Much of the focus on sex in TV drama, for instance, isn't explicit sex scenes, it's about the emotional weight of sexual relationships.

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ryn2
30 minutes ago, CBC said:

 

My husband gets sexual humour easily, but totally blanks on being able to participate in discussions with other people... which makes sense if you can't relate to anything. I don't think he could fake that one to save his life. He's told me about conversations from his university years where he just went silent when all his friends started talking about girls and sex.

 

I had zero problem keeping up (or leading) these discussions, but with my (all male) friends they were mechanical and not emotional.  By that I mean they were talking about what they put where and about arousal/bodily responses, and not about their emotions/thoughts/feelings.

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CBC
Just now, ryn2 said:

I had zero problem keeping up (or leading) these discussions, but with my (all male) friends they were mechanical and not emotional.  By that I mean they were talking about what they put where and about arousal/bodily responses, and not about their emotions/thoughts/feelings.

Yeah he just went dead silent, from what I understand. Zero ability to relate or fake it.

 

To be fair I'm a really reserved person -- and was even more so at that age -- and wouldn't be too likely to discuss in great detail how into someone I was either, and I've never really cared about things like hot celebrities, so I'd be relatively quiet too. I can really only discuss that sort of thing one-on-one. Or on AVEN, lol.

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ryn2
2 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

Much of the focus on sex in TV drama, for instance, isn't explicit sex scenes, it's about the emotional weight of sexual relationships.

We’ve talked about this too.  I can’t speak for everyone but 1) it seems like people may be drawn to different types of entertainment and therefore exposed to different things and 2) when we do watch the same things our perspectives color what we see.

 

I think it would be difficult not to notice that sex - like sports - is a big focus in our society.  What doesn’t come across is how sex is what builds relationships (rather than “relationships can be a way to get sex”).

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ryn2
23 hours ago, CBC said:

Yeah he just went dead silent, from what I understand. Zero ability to relate or fake it.

I’d had as much sexual experience as a lot of them had...  so when they were talking about the mechanics of sex (and they never talked about the emotional components of relationships, except if they were pissed about being cheated on) there was nothing to fake.

 

In terms of relating, when I couldn’t it was easy (and perhaps correct) to write off as the, err, inherent difference between pitching and catching,

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CBC
1 minute ago, ryn2 said:

I’d had as much sexual experience as a lot of them had...  so when they were talking about the mechanics of sex (and they never talked about the emotional components of relatipnships, except if they were pissed about being cheated on) there was nothing to fake.

Oh yeah, he definitely had none, so. Tbh now that he has I'm pretty sure he'd still draw a blank. 😂

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ryn2

I’ve also always had a strong interest in medicine/anatomy/physiology and a good imagination for physical stuff so from that standpoint I knew way more about my body and often way  more about theirs than they did.

 

I knew - and know - a ton about sex.  Everything, it seems, except what it’s like (especially from a brain perspective) to actually experience it as a sexual.

 

Sort of like how I know everything about eating and food except what it feels like from inside the head of someone without an eating disorder history.

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user23974865
On 2/26/2019 at 10:18 PM, anisotrophic said:

In the last year, one of the things I wonder a lot about is whether I was on some level more comfortable with someone that wasn't attracted to me -- because I wasn't comfortable being female. I don't feel dysphoria, but... maybe I was unlikely to settle down with a heterosexual man? Maybe someone being attracted to my female-ness felt like pressure to be ... female?

I was only reading the thread out of idle curiosity, but this sounds so familiar. So familiar... Except that I used to be on the other side of it.

 

Reading about these kinds of personal experiences is a sobering reminder to me that I should not be in a relationship. I should be (and I usually am) thankful for being single, and sparing myself and some other person out there a lot of unnecessary trouble. The concept of wanting your partner to initiate something as an expression of appreciation is something that I can easily understand, and it's something that I can definitely relate to, a lot. But the concept of "needing to feel desired" is just... completely alien to me.

 

I went through so many arguments with my girlfriend where she would tell me something like "I don't love you, I love that girl that I've told you about", and then I'd literally say "okay" and I'd ask her if she wanted to break up and be friends, and then she would invariably say no. That was the point when I would usually get very upset. The way she felt about me made no difference to me, but I always felt that it was extremely important for me to know what she needed or wanted from me. I didn't want to be in a relationship where my efforts were unwanted, because it really was an effort, even though I did like her a lot. Relationships are completely unnatural to me. I told her that it would bother me if she wanted to be with other guys (I really don't like anything resembling competition), but that I didn't mind it if she wanted to be either sexually or romantically involved with women (because to her it was clearly a different type of attachment, more like yin-yang than "competition"), especially during our long-distance phase. It didn't help.

 

We met on a forum meant specifically for people who prefer to avoid intimate relationships and social contact in general. She specifically told me more than once that a big part of what made her comfortable with me was the fact that I didn't show any sexual interest in her despite being in contact every day and despite finding her attractive. When we met in person, she kept telling me "I don't know how to do the whole girlfriend thing", and I kept telling her "I don't want or expect you to", but it didn't seem to help. I knew from the start that she had even more issues than I do though, so I take my share of responsibility for the slow-motion drawn-out disaster. I have the feeling that she regrets the relationship as a whole. But I don't. I kinda wish I could have also made her feel positive about the experience and even the failure itself, but I guess that's just not up to me.

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anisotrophic

Wow, the insensitivity of others' partners is so awful. I ... gosh, I mean... my partner would never say what @Traveler40's said, what a mindf**k thing to do. OTOH he wasn't role-playing het guy anyway, already comfortable with not sticking the het male script, so maybe there is that? But then, @Telecaster68's wife did things like that too -- why??

I get the feeling my partner would say "what the heck". (I don't want to bother him right now with the topic, he's really busy. Me too.) And @Skullery Maid that sounds just, so, ugh. It's wonderful that you can be moving on!!

Also, @anamikanon were you implying your partner "talks like he's OK with BDSM but isn't"? More misleads? That sucks. But maybe you just meant that he's passive.
 

Spoiler

My partner talked like he was OK with things because he was OK with those things, he just wasn't interested in them. I can see this rapidly becoming obvious if expecting someone to behave dominantly. Maybe that's the distinction.

Because in the context where I was taking the lead, it's entirely possible to do the things. But I experienced the difference between "passive" and "submissive". It was nice of him to play along with things! I appreciate that. But he didn't *want* it. Eventually I feel silly about it, no matter how good-natured he is. I guess I'm embarrassed, but not hurt.


... so, in this context, with my partner being very understanding, I guess it makes sense that I feel pretty content. I'm not suffering from the added issues of misleading/insensitive behavior. We love each other and want each other to be happy. I feel like... no rush on the sex thing. I'm not comfortable with him now & his lack of desire... but that's okay, it doesn't feel integral now. I had a lot of emotional response before which is pretty normal to have, and I think I had to work through all that and be comforted. (and he was really patient with all that! still is, it doesn't disappear, just subsides)

@burobu it's kind of similar but not? For example, he's fine with me being sexual with other men, or at least he was in the past (or rather, we were with each other), and supportive of that happening (again/more) someday. Unlike what you've described, we've been very romantic / communicative / emotionally close / sympathetic. I guess we're very secure with each other?

It's not that I need my partner to initiate as an expression of appreciation (he could probably do that, if he put his mind to it), it's just disappointing that he doesn't intrinsically experience desire for this thing (or me), no hunger/pull/desire/fantasies. But romantic and physical and emotional affection are in abundance. The split attraction model was very much a "holy shit" moment (for both of us) where all the pieces fell together basically immediately upon learning about it. Kind of wild. Which is why I care a lot about the visibility of asexuality, I hope it continues to increase.

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user23974865
3 hours ago, anisotrophic said:


@burobu it's kind of similar but not? For example, he's fine with me being sexual with other men, or at least he was in the past (or rather, we were with each other), and supportive of that happening (again/more) someday. Unlike what you've described, we've been very romantic / communicative / emotionally close / sympathetic. I guess we're very secure with each other?

Yes, in those regards it's very much different, which is definitely a good sign for you. :lol:  You wouldn't be posting about bumps in the road anyway if your relationship was generally like mine was. There wouldn't be a road for bumps to be found in, just thick uncharted jungle.

 

It just really caught my attention when I read what you said in particular about being drawn to someone because they don't seem particularly attracted to you. On that forum that I was talking about (it was about "schizoid personality"), back when it was still active, that was kind of a recurring theme. There were a few regular members who were sort of dumbfounded by the very fact that they ever got married (and still dumbfounded about what their spouses expected from them), but mostly it was sporadic posters, mainly women, who showed up looking for advice with failing relationships and then eventually realized that they had a pattern of being attracted to men who weren't attracted to them. So I guess "it's a thing". Within that realm, you're probably one of the lucky ones.

 

3 hours ago, anisotrophic said:

It's not that I need my partner to initiate as an expression of appreciation (he could probably do that, if he put his mind to it), it's just disappointing that he doesn't intrinsically experience desire for this thing (or me), no hunger/pull/desire/fantasies.

This is part of what got my mind wandering into my own personal story. Because the main lesson I take from the relationship I had is that I would inevitably make anyone feel unwanted, which defeats the purpose of a relationship to begin with. I could find a million different ways to express sincere appreciation, but I simply wouldn't be able to express desire (both sexual and emotional), because it just short-circuits my brain. I have no particular issue with sex, but I quickly realized that I'm basically indifferent to it (just as I'm indifferent to much everything else). Things and people and thoughts and activities are interchangeable in my head. I drift off. I get bored. I grow weary. And I guess what makes it worse is that I have a normal sex drive, maybe higher than average, and I'm very much heterosexual (which I guess is part of why any hint of "competition" makes me more aggressive than I'm comfortable with). I'm just not particularly interested in the act itself. When I thought of sex with her, I thought of it (and talked to her about it) mostly like "let's try this today, it will be fun".

 

It was actually kind of a problem that I was more interested in pleasing her than in pleasing myself in the act together with her. She seemed very conflicted about it. As far as my own satisfaction was concerned, I could just as well simply hold hands with her for a while, and then please myself later on at a more convenient time. Given how that's less complicated, it's generally what I would prefer. When I read about people's frustrations with their partners' failure to meet their "desire to feel desired", it resonates with memories of moments I never realized had anything to do with that, even though this was something I thought I was attuned to at the time. And if I think about it, that's really inevitable, because I would never even want to be in a relationship where I'm not the more assertive one. Long story short, 2 + 2 = 4, the sky is blue, and I should just stay away from relationships altogether. :P

 

The other part of what got me thinking of my personal story was what you said about being drawn to men who aren't attracted to you "because then you don't feel pressured to be a woman". Those women who would ask for advice on that other forum were usually more feminine than average, but my girlfriend was the opposite. She was very pretty, but she seemed to hate it that she was pretty. She used to complain about having breasts, and she liked to wear sports bras to hide them. Her hair was messy most of the time, and she almost never wore makeup (I have to say, I don't really get why most women do anyway). But she also went through phases when she thought about modeling. Whatever she really felt about it, it was clear that she was very uncomfortable being a woman. Which was one of the reasons why I was drawn to her, because I was never comfortable being a man either. Except that I'm not conflicted about it, I simply refuse to follow manly-man stereotypes and that's about it. I felt she would be accepting of it, and to me that was enough. Not so simple in reality though.

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anamikanon
12 hours ago, anisotrophic said:

Also, @anamikanon were you implying your partner "talks like he's OK with BDSM but isn't"? More misleads? That sucks. But maybe you just meant that he's passive.
 

  Hide contents

My partner talked like he was OK with things because he was OK with those things, he just wasn't interested in them. I can see this rapidly becoming obvious if expecting someone to behave dominantly. Maybe that's the distinction.

Because in the context where I was taking the lead, it's entirely possible to do the things. But I experienced the difference between "passive" and "submissive". It was nice of him to play along with things! I appreciate that. But he didn't *want* it. Eventually I feel silly about it, no matter how good-natured he is. I guess I'm embarrassed, but not hurt.


... so, in this context, with my partner being very understanding, I guess it makes sense that I feel pretty content. I'm not suffering from the added issues of misleading/insensitive behavior. We love each other and want each other to be happy. I feel like... no rush on the sex thing. I'm not comfortable with him now & his lack of desire... but that's okay, it doesn't feel integral now. I had a lot of emotional response before which is pretty normal to have, and I think I had to work through all that and be comforted. (and he was really patient with all that! still is, it doesn't disappear, just subsides)

No no. BDSM was just an example. I'm not into BDSM either. But it was say a .... controversial example that is possible with him. Where many sexual people may balk at some aspects, he's likely to be fine discussing anything and everything. He isn't interested in doing any of it and he doesn't say he wants to do any of it.

 

Thing is, he doesn't say he doesn't want to do it either - he has no mental image of HIM in a sexual scenario for what he wants or doesn't want to be an angle he considers. But if you don't know that someone is asexual, and you've extensively discussed various sexual acts with him and he's been very involved in the discussion, it appears like the acts interest him. But in reality, he's asexual, and he's only conversing.

 

Before I knew he was ace, there have been several instances when he's spoken in a way that led me to assume he'd like something or has plans to do something specific later - which of course he doesn't. For example, to a sexual, if their sexual partner asks whether they enjoy a specific sexual act (he read about it somewhere and got curious), why, etc - the implication is that it is a possibility for experimentation in bed, particularly if the reply is positive. It is never going to happen. I could get fed up of waiting and initiate that same thing - which he may or may not agree to completely independent to any conversations we had. It will have come to him out of the blue - the discussion not having any relevance to our sex life. He isn't sex negative, just that intellectual discussion in his world does not necessarily apply to plans for action involving him.

 

Rather like you may discuss some extreme climbing expedition in great detail without ever planning to attempt that peak - without being tempted, without any intention and if offered, it wouldn't be your preference. But the discussion is interesting on its own merit.

 

He isn't misleading intentionally. He has no problems discussing sex. He isn't discussing from a perspective of what HE wants to do. So he can discuss sex readily and without any taboos, which to a sexual can imply an interest in the actions discussed - when for him it is merely an interesting conversation.

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anamikanon

Or, in other words, @anisotrophiche has absolutely no problems whatsoever with BDSM - as long as he isn't in the picture. Put him in the picture and it is a new conversation where he usually has no idea what he wants and will probably be happy to try anything once and see what happens. Or not. Or fall asleep...

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ryn2
1 hour ago, anamikanon said:

Where many sexual people may balk at some aspects, he's likely to be fine discussing anything and everything. He isn't interested in doing any of it and he doesn't say he wants to do any of it.

 

Thing is, he doesn't say he doesn't want to do it either - he has no mental image of HIM in a sexual scenario for what he wants or doesn't want to be an angle he considers. But if you don't know that someone is asexual, and you've extensively discussed various sexual acts with him and he's been very involved in the discussion, it appears like the acts interest him. But in reality, he's asexual, and he's only conversing.

Yes, this is a significant difference I only recognized very recently.

 

The acts likely *do* interest him. The interest is just more scientific and less personal.

 

I love knowing all about things.

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ryn2
1 hour ago, anamikanon said:

Rather like you may discuss some extreme climbing expedition in great detail without ever planning to attempt that peak - without being tempted, without any intention and if offered, it wouldn't be your preference. But the discussion is interesting on its own merit.

Exactly like this!  And until you/someone brought it up recently, I would never have thought (of) this...

 

1 hour ago, anamikanon said:

to a sexual, if their sexual partner asks whether they enjoy a specific sexual act (he read about it somewhere and got curious), why, etc - the implication is that it is a possibility for experimentation in bed, particularly if the reply is positive.

 

...or this...

 

1 hour ago, anamikanon said:

assume he'd like something or has plans to do something specific later

 

...unless the speaker had expressly said they wanted to try the thing.

 

If my partner followed on with a question about whether *I* wanted to do it - especially in the near term, not in some imaginary, theoretical future -my reaction (in light of the above) would probably have been quite jarring.

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Guest Jetsun Milarepa
On 3/19/2019 at 7:03 PM, Telecaster68 said:

There was a particular (drunk and stoned, obvs) game of Cards Vs Humanity in which my wife was coming up with stuff that really pissed me off....

 

On 3/19/2019 at 7:15 PM, Telecaster68 said:

I can't remember exact wording but there was one which strongly implied she was up for multiple partners, rather than, you know, no partner, and it was a card where she brought sex into it rather than the card already being explicit filth.

This implies that the poster was never married to an ace at all and is posting here knowing this to be the case, which IMHO disqualifies him from this site.

Last year many posts were made concering this wife being ace. 

The above quotes prove this to be otherwise.

 

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Guest Jetsun Milarepa

In other words...if your wife would prefer to sleep with others in preference to yourself that doesn't make her ace. 

Probably just choosy.😊🍰

 

 

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user23974865

@chandrakirti I hope you don't take my comments the other day as endorsement for this kind of behavior. You're not helping things.

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Guest Jetsun Milarepa

Haven't read your posts @burobu...

 

 

 

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user23974865

I mean another thread.

 

Anyway, never mind. Go on, I guess. I just wanted to make it clear that I don't exactly think it's a good idea to go around saying stuff like that.

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CBC

@chandrakirti Hey maybe it's about time you chill on the weird obsession with and vendetta against Tele, huh? Now that you know he's not able to respond because of your nonsense. But I'll speak up for a friend if I have to, or want to.

 

And what the hell do you mean "disqualifies"? There's no such concept on AVEN. Anyone can be here.

 

Grow the fuck up.

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daveb
1 hour ago, chandrakirti said:

The above quotes prove this to be otherwise.

He was talking about a card game. Nothing in that proves his wife isn't ace. But what if he thought she was and it turns out he was mistaken? There is nothing that requires everyone on AVEN to be ace or to be connected to an ace. All that is required is to be above a certain age and to obey the Terms of Service.

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Guest Jetsun Milarepa

For someone who's been so nice to so many aces on here...sorry!!!😊🍰

 

 

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