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Shame about seeking & receiving sex


anisotrophic

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36 minutes ago, anisotrophic said:

To be clear, if someone male makes a joke about how he might end up in bed with another guy, yeah I'd think he's signaling he's into sex with men.

You would think every heterosexual male I have dated is gay then if you talked to them. :lol:

 

I guess it depends on personality? Every one of my friends and exes and current partner make jokes about sex and sexual innuendos. My current partner and I began our friendship with joking about sex, we still joke about stuff we wouldn't do in a million years (it was really fun to do it in public when we were not into each other). At one point I jokingly offered towel pictures, she played along accepting and I sent a picture of a folding up towel on a shelf. It was just good fun between friends at that point. She also jokes about sex with her best friend, though she has no sexual interest in him. And... basically everyone she knows. Some people I know even joke about their family and they are not into incest (find it gross). 

 

I dunno. If I took it seriously I would have to be jealous a lot I guess. But, I never have, so my wife joking sexual innuendo towards even an ex-lover is just that... jokes. Same with all the straight guys I know who joke about having sex with their male friends. And girls who joke about each other. Maybe it is the younger culture I grew up in? Maybe it is because a lot of people I know are gamers and its a common thing in gaming communities ? But all the sexuals I know joke about things they have no interest in at all, just for laughs or as a way to bond with friends (and two guys flirting makes people squirm so its funny). 

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4 minutes ago, Serran said:

You would think every heterosexual male I have dated is gay then if you talked to them. :lol:

 

I guess it depends on personality? Every one of my friends and exes and current partner make jokes about sex and sexual innuendos. My current partner and I began our friendship with joking about sex, we still joke about stuff we wouldn't do in a million years (it was really fun to do it in public when we were not into each other). At one point I jokingly offered towel pictures, she played along accepting and I sent a picture of a folding up towel on a shelf. It was just good fun between friends at that point. She also jokes about sex with her best friend, though she has no sexual interest in him. And... basically everyone she knows. Some people I know even joke about their family and they are not into incest (find it gross). 

 

I dunno. If I took it seriously I would have to be jealous a lot I guess. But, I never have, so my wife joking sexual innuendo towards even an ex-lover is just that... jokes. Same with all the straight guys I know who joke about having sex with their male friends. And girls who joke about each other. Maybe it is the younger culture I grew up in? Maybe it is because a lot of people I know are gamers and its a common thing in gaming communities ? But all the sexuals I know joke about things they have no interest in at all, just for laughs or as a way to bond with friends (and two guys flirting makes people squirm so its funny). 

This is much more in line with my experience, and I’m old and not really part of a gamer crowd.

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Side note: Been tied up with life for a bit here and am just catching up.  Life ain’t the same on AVEN without Tele. I’m sorry to hear he’s been temporarily sidelined.  Separately, the CaH comments were en pointe and made sense in context which, in no way,  disqualifies his wife as an Ace. 🤷🏻‍♀️

 

@anamikanon nails the descriptions best on how my husband can also disassociate thoughts, actions and intent (or lack thereof) as it pertains to sex.  He says what he thinks, what he’s supposed to think or what sounds best in the moment without ever seriously considering doing any of what he may reference.

 

And yes, if a man referenced sex with another man, I’d think he was into sex with other men, not merely gay-friendly FWIW.

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1 minute ago, ryn2 said:

This is much more in line with my experience, and I’m old and not really part of a gamer crowd.

*shrug* Dont know what causes it then. But, I would never in a million years think a joke or innuendo was a serious desire. Anyone who thinks that would assume me and my wife (who are both very mono) have a very, very open relationship. :lol: I mean she even does hand holding, pecks and snuggles for dramatic effect to play the jokes (which if it was done seriously would bug me, but it isn't so it doesn't). 

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7 minutes ago, Traveler40 said:

He says what he thinks, what he’s supposed to think or what sounds best in the moment without ever seriously considering doing any of what he may reference.

Exactly!  I may even have given consideration to doing something from a mechanics/logistics perspective, in order to be able to talk about it correctly, but not in the sense of wanting to do it myself.

 

9 minutes ago, Traveler40 said:

And yes, if a man referenced sex with another man, I’d think he was into sex with other men, not merely gay-friendly FWIW.

This is so interesting!  Huh.  I’m looking at jokes - all jokes - in an entirely new way, which is pretty unexpected for an oldie like me who has always been known for their sense of humor.

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2 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

 

 

This is so interesting!  Huh.  I’m looking at jokes - all jokes - in an entirely new way, which is pretty unexpected for an oldie like me who has always been known for their sense of humor.

I'm not gonna stress about it. My social circle is joke friendly and if other people take them seriously, oh well. Assume we are all having gay orgies. *shrug* If yours is similar I wouldn't start worrying about if every joke is serious. 

 

I guess it can be important to know if your partner is joke friendly or not, to avoid hurt feelings. Though, I dont know if I could date a person who took "pics or not true", or "dont make promises if you arent gonna keep them" etc as serious requests for sexual stuff. I dont really want pics and I do not want you to do that! 

 

I do know me and my partner take the joking to extremes most would not be OK with. Even during sexual activities we jokingly allude to things we both know aren't interesting, to the point of nearly doing, but we both know the line and that the other isn't into that anyway so its just all in fun. So, I wouldn't go as far with someone who wanted things I wasn't willing to offer. Because it would be teasing something they want. 

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anisotrophic

As an addition, when I hear jokes about homosexual sex made by people that are also clear about NOT being gay/bi/pan, it has a homophobic vibe to me -- that homosexuality is a target of disrespect and mocking.

 

(Surely you can imagine situations where this is the case, even if you're confident the ones you experienced were friendly...)

 

To connect this back in the thread: the parallel is that joking about sexuality has the potential subtext of "I like sex" or "I mock sexuality", both of which are potentially upsetting to a partner that's being sexually rejected.

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21 minutes ago, Serran said:

If yours is similar I wouldn't start worrying about if every joke is serious. 

Yeah, I’m not so much worrying about it as running back through some arguments/odd-seeming statements from people to see if I’m maybe inserting a layer of indirection into humor that isn’t there for some.

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13 minutes ago, anisotrophic said:

Surely you can imagine situations where this is the case, even if you're confident the ones you experienced were friendly...

Oh, absolutely, and I have been present many times when clearly mean-spirited sex joking (about gender, sexuality, “prudishness,” etc.) have been made.  That’s why I specified “not mocking” a few posts back.

 

I don’t typically have any trouble distinguishing between people who are “laughing with” or “laughing at” someone or something.

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14 minutes ago, anisotrophic said:

To connect this back in the thread: the parallel is that joking about sexuality has the potential subtext of "I like sex" or "I mock sexuality", both of which are potentially upsetting to a partner that's being sexually rejected.

To me joking about sexuality has always had the subtext of “I look positively upon sex” or “I mock sex.”  I wouldn’t expect the first part to be hurtful to someone else who also looks positively upon sex.  What I didn’t realize is that others might be seeing it in a narrower frame (“I personally want to engage in this particular thing [with my partner... when I actually Do Not!, or with the person I’m joking with/about]”).

 

I can see why hearing it that way could/would turn it into something painful.  I just had no idea anyone *was* hearing it that way, or by extension thinking I could mean it that way.

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21 minutes ago, anisotrophic said:

"I like sex"

I do like sex.  I just like it more when it doesn’t involve me and someone.

 

This is probably a place where more than a few people/couples have gotten tripped up.  An ace person who finds sex in general gross, distasteful, uncomfortable to talk about, etc., is both easy to pick out in a crowd and likely to notice they’re different from others.  People who are fine with sex overall don’t stand out the same way, to others or to themselves.

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14 minutes ago, anisotrophic said:

As an addition, when I hear jokes about homosexual sex made by people that are also clear about NOT being gay/bi/pan, it has a homophobic vibe to me 

Mmm. Im more prone to think homophobic if someone is afraid to seem gay so wont do anything even slightly "gay" in fear. 

 

Yeah you can do mean spirited jokes about it. But, two guys calling each other wifey and play kissing or responding to get a room with "we have one" and getting all close to each other to further make the (obviously uncomfortable with two guys being close) person even more uncomfortable, or kissing each other as a long term joke about being an item is just friendly fun. At most mocking the stupid gender role of men cant be close cause not macho and will be assumed gay. 

 

Which, granted, women I know do it less. So it likely is a kind of public rejection of societal roles and rules about how close friends can be. If you are gonna call us gay for hugging, we will just act really gay then (to over the top play the role you assume and laugh at you). 

 

But, under it all it just is fun and everyone does it as a bonding thing (male and female) in my social groups. 

 

But, if a topic is sensitive to begin with jokes tend to stop being funny. But, for me, that is just more stress in a sexual mismatch when you have to start watching even your jokes to avoid reminding your partner how much being with you sucks for them.

 

Which, honestly, the constant watchfulness to avoid hurt feelings leading me to not be myself or relax at all ever is not a thing I miss. I think I gave myself an anxiety complex being with people who were into sex things I didnt like..  dont do this, dont say that, dont wear this. Its a constant checklist going through your head when doing anything together. So exhausting. 

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user23974865
7 hours ago, ryn2 said:

Other people saying it and getting a laugh.

I guess this is why it seems so strange to me. I only match other people's behavior when I feel like I have to. Or else, I usually don't react negatively, but I don't join in either (probably just a deadpan expression instead, followed by something like "anyway, as I was saying ..."). If I feel like I'm actually in a friendly environment and I really want to join in on making jokes, I'll still go in the direction of toning down the innuendo anyway, like maybe saying "nope, nope, not really, nope" while shaking my head and making funny faces.

 

It's been a long time since I was last drunk or stoned, but I think I would just react like "pft! *laughs*" or maybe "blergh, get outta my face" in those kinds of situations.

 

7 hours ago, ryn2 said:

Sex talk in the sense of “talking dirty” during sex, or in the sense of talking non-theoretically about sex that’s including (or soon going to include) me, makes me very uncomfortable.

Same for me, except that in my case this is enough for me to also be uncomfortable making jokes. Sex-related jokes in a social context just feel like social pressure to me, like forcing something strictly personal into a context where it can be judged and reshaped by other people's views (on purpose or not). I'm extremely uncomfortable with that. If someone insists and I can't get out of the situation, I'll probably do something like stare at them with a blank expression without moving or talking, on purpose to make them uncomfortable too until they change the subject themselves.

 

I think what exactly a person's behavior in that sense reflects/reveals depends a lot on context, and the same reaction can even mean opposite things between one situation and another or between one person and another. But still, I do feel like it normally reflects/reveals something significant about a person's relationship with the subject being joked about when the humor isn't just plain dad-joke style. That's why I only make dad jokes. I don't like to reveal things about myself IRL. :P

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39 minutes ago, burobu said:

I only match other people's behavior when I feel like I have to.

Maybe this was already clear but I’m not sure.  I’m not necessarily matching behavior in the moment (although I can and do); it’s more that I learn others find something funny so I do it when I   want to be funny.  As serran mentioned there’s also some friend-bonding involved.

 

Ages ago a bunch of people I knew worked at a place where a supervisor hated being bugged with simple questions.  If you asked “where is the [common office implement]?” the supervisor would respond with “if it was up your a** you would know where it was.”  It became a friend group in-joke; all these years later, if any two people from that group hear someone ask “where...?” one or both will invariably go “if it was...” and trail off without saying the rest while they both double over laughing.

 

The tongue thing was the same.  I learned it was a reponse to someone sticking out their tongue that was seen as quick-witted and made everyone laugh.

 

I also stopped it forever when a coworker licked me.

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5 hours ago, Serran said:

*shrug* Dont know what causes it then. But, I would never in a million years think a joke or innuendo was a serious desire.

Same. I do a lot of innuendos and sexual jokes and never take it seriously. Else I would have to assume most people on AVEN that I know are interested in me sexually LOL. Its fun banter, and even in relationship I joke about sexual/nonsexual stuff that are never ever gonna happen. I love the unexpected responses that I get :lol: Its no different than playing games like 'Imagine you are in X situation, what would you do?' but instead of Q&A format, it just proceeds as natural conversation.

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9 minutes ago, Chihiro said:

Same. I do a lot of innuendos and sexual jokes and never take it seriously. Else I would have to assume most people on AVEN that I know are interested in me sexually LOL. Its fun banter, and even in relationship I joke about sexual/nonsexual stuff that are never ever gonna happen. I love the unexpected responses that I get :lol: Its no different than playing games like 'Imagine you are in X situation, what would you do?' but instead of Q&A format, it just proceeds as natural conversation.

Yes!

 

Maybe another piece of it is a sense on the sexual partner’s part that the ace partner should know it’s a sore/hurtful subject (and therefore tread lightly/avoid related humor)?  Like, perfectly serviceable jokes and anecdotes about drunken shenanigans would likely be much less funny (to put it mildly) to someone whose sister was killed by a drunk driver or whose parent was an abusive alcoholic.

 

Since some of us don’t connect sex-the-topic with sex-as-it-affects-me-personally the idea that it’s personally hurtful to people who aren’t squeamish about it isn’t something we arrive at naturally?

 

I may be reaching.

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2 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

Yes!

 

Maybe another piece of it is a sense on the sexual partner’s part that the ace partner should know it’s a sore/hurtful subject (and therefore tread lightly/avoid related humor)?  Like, perfectly serviceable jokes and anecdotes about drunken shenanigans would likely be much less funny (to put it mildly) to someone whose sister was killed by a drunk driver or whose parent was an abusive alcoholic.

True. Also, if confused, the partner should ask for clarification. For instance, some of the weird things I say sometimes freaks out people. And I clarify that thats not gonna happen IRL (well, jokingly I say they aren't lucky enough to experience that IRL :P). And when some jokes get tiring very soon, asking each other to shut up is also common. I guess, match in sense of humor is also important.

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16 minutes ago, Chihiro said:

And I clarify that thats not gonna happen IRL (well, jokingly I say they aren't lucky enough to experience that IRL :P)

I tend to jokingly go “you wish!” or “if only you could get so lucky” and given others’ input I can now see why that would be a bit salt-in-the-wound-ish to a mixed relationship partner even if it’s otherwise normal banter for the friend group.

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user23974865
2 hours ago, ryn2 said:

Maybe another piece of it is a sense on the sexual partner’s part that the ace partner should know it’s a sore/hurtful subject (and therefore tread lightly/avoid related humor)?  Like, perfectly serviceable jokes and anecdotes about drunken shenanigans would likely be much less funny (to put it mildly) to someone whose sister was killed by a drunk driver or whose parent was an abusive alcoholic.

 

Since some of us don’t connect sex-the-topic with sex-as-it-affects-me-personally the idea that it’s personally hurtful to people who aren’t squeamish about it isn’t something we arrive at naturally?

 

I may be reaching.

No, I think you hit the nail on the head.

 

It wouldn't happen with me as far as sexual banter is concerned (partly because I do "connect sex-the-topic with sex-as-it-affects-me-personally", and also because, as a rule, I don't do banter). But, considering that someone went as far as to assume that "we were in a relationship" for months while I had no clue about it, I just have to assume that I do the same with other types of things where I "don't connect the topic with the thing as it affects me personally". I have a much stronger drive to understand things than a drive to do them. I think it confuses people a lot, but it's usually hard to tell when and how exactly.

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53 minutes ago, burobu said:

I have a much stronger drive to understand things than a drive to do them.

Same (in many areas, not just sex).

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anisotrophic
9 hours ago, ryn2 said:

Maybe another piece of it is a sense on the sexual partner’s part that the ace partner should know it’s a sore/hurtful subject (and therefore tread lightly/avoid related humor)?  Like, perfectly serviceable jokes and anecdotes about drunken shenanigans would likely be much less funny (to put it mildly) to someone whose sister was killed by a drunk driver or whose parent was an abusive alcoholic.

Yeah, this nails it. Salt in the wound.

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19 hours ago, ryn2 said:

Unless it was in the context of other behavior and information I would just think he was comfortable thinking about men having sex with one another.  Even kind-of-crass stuff like “heck, after a few more shots *I’d* do him” just read as jokes to me.  I wouldn’t take that as an actual interest on the speaker’s part in having sex with the subject of the discussion.

Yes, I think that is exactly the thing.

 

If your roomie asked you about what food you like, if you have specific allergies and then shared a specific recipe that looked interesting, maybe joked that they can't stand a specific ingredient, so they'd have to substitute it or brought up not having some specific equipment needed and asked whether it looked like something you'd enjoy, would you interpret it as an actual interest on the speaker’s part in making it or simply a discussion about what sort of food interests different people? 

 

If you asked them, and they said that nah, they weren't planning to make this and asked you something else a few days later, which on being asked, they weren't planning on making either.... takes a while before you realize they are just discussing how others cook. Nothing wrong with just discussing, but sure sucks when they ask about something you'd really like when you're feeling hungry and you know they are just ... discussing.

 

One day you realize or they tell you, they aren't into cooking at all, just fascinated by others cooking.... and you learn to tune it out when you are hungry because hypothetical culinary discussions backed by no real experience and with nothing put to practice are pointless. When not hungry, you may engage in discussions for light conversation if by then you haven't been put off by their whole approach to cooking.

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On 3/19/2019 at 10:40 PM, anisotrophic said:

Wow, the insensitivity of others' partners is so awful.

To be clear, because I was included in this, I don't think my partner is insensitive, and I don't understand the problem with us opening our relationship and taking advantage of it. If anyone is insensitive, it's most definitely me, of that I can promise you. 

 

As far as the sex jokes, etc... I mean, come on. Asexual partners don't want a relationship where they have to walk on eggshells. Where every time sex is mentioned they're supposed to sit and feel bad. Don't join in the conversation! No joking about things you wouldn't do! 

 

I don't think other people are responsible for my feelings. If I feel bad, I need to find a way to stop feeling bad. I don't consider it love if you're loving someone in spite of who they are, and most definitely not if you want them to feel bad for it. 

 

I feel like life is one big exercise in letting go. So little of what we hold onto is worth holding onto. Does being salty when your wife says she wants a threesome help anything? No? Then stop doing it. Change your expectations. People aren't required to meet all your expectations, so any resulting disappointment is on you to deal with.

 

So, I don't know. I'm proud of my partner and me for recognizing that we have different needs, different lives, and giving each other the space to explore them. 

 

And while we're on the topic of needs. I'm no longer only interested in meeting my needs. I've spent most of my life prioritizing other people and only asking for what I need and tbh I'm kind of over it. You know what I want? My wants. I want things that I don't need, and I don't feel bad about that. Living life only according to my needs... not good enough anymore. Today I'm after what I want. 

 

 

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4 hours ago, anamikanon said:

would you interpret it as an actual interest on the speaker’s part in making it or simply a discussion about what sort of food interests different people? 

This is a little different than the sex remarks (joking around, especially in groups, versus a 1:1, more serious conversation) I thought tele meant/I was envisioning.  In 1:1, serious conversation I would take it as genuine interest in what I personally liked (although not as interest in providing me with it unless that was the context we’d set for the discussion, e.g., “hey, it’s my turn to make dinner - what sounds good?”).

 

I’m speculating, though, as I’ve only once ever had a roomie who was not also an SO and that was freshman year in college/uni so we basically just slept in the same space and that was all.

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3 hours ago, Skullery Maid said:

 

 

As far as the sex jokes, etc... I mean, come on. Asexual partners don't want a relationship where they have to walk on eggshells. Where every time sex is mentioned they're supposed to sit and feel bad. Don't join in the conversation! No joking about things you wouldn't do! 

 

I don't think other people are responsible for my feelings. If I feel bad, I need to find a way to stop feeling bad. I don't consider it love if you're loving someone in spite of who they are, and most definitely not if you want them to feel bad for it. 

 

That is the thing that has always irked me a bit about SPFA mixed relationship posts. One trend is basically "I want my partner to once a month or so tell me they know it sucks for me"... which always sounds like "I want my partner to always feel guilty and apologize for who they are, because who they are hurts me". And "I want my partner to avoid doing this or that cause it hurts me" ... I tend to come away thinking what is the point if neither of you can relax or just feel good being together?

 

Now adding to the list is jokes and asking about sex to learn about it from your partner cause asking them their preferences and experiences sends the signal you want it... 

 

I mean. If we make a list of all the things various sexual partners find hurtful / unacceptable / get angry over their aces doing,  aces will think they can do nothing but meekly walk around and regularly apologize for being who they are if in a relationship with a sexual. 

 

Always makes me wonder what the point of being together even is if simply being yourselves does nothing but cause pain so you both have to walk on eggshells and never relax. I found that play pretend checklist in my head 24/7 exhausting and never realized how exhausting until I got with someone I can just relax and be me with. Every want I have is shared, its OK to declare our relationship non-sexual for months, its OK to give each other orgasms daily... there is no acting and they want nothing I dont (yay no PiV, oral or anal needs for the first time !) .. I guess for some the need to be guarded in some ways is worth it ? But, everytime something like this comes up it makes me cringe anymore, cause I have this freedom from compatibility and the idea of having to close off again and consider every little thing (even playing CaH of all things) is just so repulsive. 

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24 minutes ago, Serran said:

Always makes me wonder what the point of being together even is if simply being yourselves does nothing but cause pain so you both have to walk on eggshells and never relax.

Unfortunately for those people currently in mixed relationships, it seems like this often is the bottom line... to stay together one or both people has to love or be loved (and tolerate or be tolerated) in spite of themselves.

 

I totally get why throwing in the towel isn’t always a good option but it does seem like a relationship where either person needs to regularly hear or say “I know being with me is hard and unpleasant because of xyz core thing about me” is going to be pretty painful... especially when xyz isn’t an illness (mental or physical) or external problem (e.g., getting laid off) with which both/all partners can be angry.

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1 hour ago, ryn2 said:

 

 

I totally get why throwing in the towel isn’t always a good option but it does seem like a relationship where either person needs to regularly hear or say “I know being with me is hard and unpleasant because of xyz core thing about me” is going to be pretty painful... especially when xyz isn’t an illness (mental or physical) or external problem (e.g., getting laid off) with which both/all partners can be angry.

And xyz thing isn't something that can be changed. So, it is a life-long ritual of guilt and ... remorse for being that ? On both sides I guess, but whichever side requires it most. 

 

I guess this is why I had sworn off sexual relationships before meeting my partner. 😛 Im not willing to do that and if a person wants it of me, I would rather just be single. 

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29 minutes ago, Serran said:

And xyz thing isn't something that can be changed.

Right - where it’s just a normal, healthy, permanent part of who the person (either person) is... nothing to cure, work on, etc.

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anisotrophic
7 hours ago, Serran said:

If we make a list of all the things various sexual partners find hurtful / unacceptable / get angry over their aces doing,  aces will think they can do nothing but meekly walk around and regularly apologize for being who they are if in a relationship with a sexual.

Demonstrating empathy for someone else's suffering is not the same thing as expressing/feeling guilt.

As with all things, there is a balance and context. If my partner jokes about sex, it's not going to hurt me: he's expressed a ton of empathy for me, I have no doubt that he cares. We joke about his asexuality -- that levity can affirm that everything is normal and okay, e.g. tongue-in-cheek jokes like him saying "it took me a while, but eventually I got it" when sharing a double-entendre he saw on social media.

In SPFA, a lot of sexuals are in relationships where they did not expect/know their partner would be ace. They're coming to terms with it, and hoping an asexual partner has empathy for their own sexuality. We should also want sexual partners to have empathy for their partner's asexuality. We should want both things. But when a sexual partner doesn't feel that their asexual partner has empathy for their sexuality, then I think it is completely understandable that levity about sex isn't so funny to them. I don't think that reaction implies someone wants remorse -- I think it can simply mean they want empathy.

The need for empathy is also contextual. Did the asexual partner just come out? How old is this relationship? Does the sexual partner have reasons to feel more heavily invested or "trapped" (by children, monogamy, etc.)? Has an asexual partner expressed repulsion, or mere indifference? Etc etc etc. Ideally things get to the point where there isn't much suffering at all, but there are situations where it can be pretty acute.

I hear what you're saying. We don't want someone to feel guilt/unhappiness for their orientation. I think this is very contextual. I don't think I intended to say "joking always bad". But for sexual partners that are feeling a lack of empathy for their sexuality, I don't think it's fair to expect them to not be hurt by levity on the topic. (If someone wants to be tough about it, that's great, but I think wanting to feel empathy in a relationship is totally normal.)

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