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Shame about seeking & receiving sex


anisotrophic

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Problem is when things like that become too expected, they become trite and meaningless -- much like a kid being made by their parents to apologize to someone else, quite possibly when they didn't actually feel sorry at all for whatever it was they did.  Unless it is truly meant by the speaker, apologies are nothing but empty platitudes.

 

I kinda feel the same way about this sort of thing.

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Don't think there is so much of an eggshells thing going on. At least not in our home. Now that we've figured out that him talking about sex doesn't mean he wants it.... I get it. He talks what he wants. I don't assume any interest in sex unless he says so. Done.

 

At least, it was the part before we figured it out that was the problem. When I was sexually excited by him and eager to see sexual intent, imagining he felt similar. Not so much now. I don't get horny at every conversational mention of sex. And once I stopped seeing him as a sexual partner, what he says doesn't arouse me or lead me to anticipate anything. It is just conversation now.

 

In fact, we have the opposite problem now. The few times he's tried to initiate sex, I've been taken completely by surprise and not really in the mood. Like a friend unexpectedly made a pass at you. He did everything right. I'm just used to de-sexing everything he does, so it didn't register. I'm physically comfortable with him, and eventually will get aroused, but till I get there, it is a bit ... unexpected.

 

Let alone reading sexual intent where there wasn't any, my failure to register/indifference when there IS interest makes him feel rejected now. He may not be interested in sex, but he says, and I admit, that I just don't seem that much into him. He said he felt awful when I was frustrated, but that was better than this, because at least he knew I wanted him. :(

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23 minutes ago, anamikanon said:

my failure to register/indifference when there IS interest makes him feel rejected now. He may not be interested in sex, but he says, and I admit, that I just don't seem that much into him.

I get this.  When I stopped initiating sex and my ex failed to pick up the slack I was consistently low-level torn... on one hand, why would I initiate something unpleasant I was (and he seemed; I later learned this wasn’t true) happier without?  But on the other I was saddened that he just didn’t seem to have much interest in me anymore.

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anisotrophic

Excuse me for the return to my own topic, but I'm on cloud nine, 'cause after a four week hiatus I got my shit together and asked. Being a sexual, I'm now experiencing irrational happiness & feeling gratitude and very loved and it is OK to be like this.

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Empathy is normal in a relationship, yes. But, you are talking long term we already discussed this and know where we both stand but I need you to keep saying you know it sucks for me to be with you. How can a person be empathetic about the fact they are the cause of life long deep pain and loss for someone they love and not feel guilty? At which point needing them to bring it up over and over means never getting anywhere... you just have one partner hating this and one partner feeling bad that their partner hates it and a never ending reminder expression of guilt from the other. 

 

I guess if one can somehow talk about how they severely harm the person they love and just being who they are is enough to make their partner down right depressed without feeling bad about it... then it would have nothing to do with remorse or guilt. But, I get the feeling "I know this sucks for you" from someone that doesnt care it sucks for you wouldnt be satisfying for the people who want that. They want their partner to say it and feel bad for them for it. 

 

And in most cases of needing empathy you are empathetic about a bad day, a job sucking, a parent sick, a pet ill, whatever. External things. This is a never ending need for the person to feel bad for you because of who they are. That isn't a normal need for empathy. Its more like a gay guy needing his wife to feel bad for him cause shes a woman and routinely say she knows how much it sucks to be with a woman vs a man. 

 

The reverse would be the ace needing their partner to constantly express how their sexual urges making the ace feel gross sucks and they know it and wish it could be different. 

 

I just don't understand that relationship need at all. I would feel utterly worthless to a partner that needed me to routinely do that. It would be like they had to know I know they aren't happy with me and never want me to forget it. And I guarantee I would begin resenting it pretty quickly. 

 

But if it works for some... OK, as long as both are happy. The posters who didnt get it though, I totally understand why. 

 

I also understand why an ace may dress how they want, tell jokes they think are funny to friends and not make every life choice be about their partners sexual desires. I let every decision revolve around that with my ex to avoid making him frustrated and it lead to me fantasizing about biting his penis off, not recognizing who I was anymore and going from someone who laughs until she cries during board games and such to someone people described as stoic and never smiles. I basically gave up my life to avoid accidentally hurting or turning on some guy when I didnt want to deliver. What a waste of time. 

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8 minutes ago, anisotrophic said:

Excuse me for the return to my own topic, but I'm on cloud nine, 'cause after a four week hiatus I got my shit together and asked. Being a sexual, I'm now experiencing irrational happiness & feeling gratitude and very loved and it is OK to be like this.

Glad you figured it out :)

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54 minutes ago, Serran said:

Its more like a gay guy needing his wife to feel bad for him cause shes a woman and routinely say she knows how much it sucks to be with a woman vs a man. 

 

The reverse would be the ace needing their partner to constantly express how their sexual urges making the ace feel gross sucks and they know it and wish it could be different. 

 

I just don't understand that relationship need at all. I would feel utterly worthless to a partner that needed me to routinely do that. It would be like they had to know I know they aren't happy with me and never want me to forget it. And I guarantee I would begin resenting it pretty quickly. 

This.

 

I totally get how shared empathy in the sense of “ugh, wouldn’t life be so much easier if we had this one thing - which we very much don’t - in common!” or “you have no idea how much I envy normal couples sometimes... oh, wait, you do!” is important and helpful, but what some of the sexual posters here describe wanting doesn’t sound like that; it sounds like what serran describes.

 

Ultimately, both partners in a mixed relationship know and can readily empathize with what it feels like to be in a relationship that is to some degree asymmetric and burdened... but there’s a big difference between “I’m sorry this incompatibility we share strains and hurts both of us” and “I’m sorry this core piece of who I am hurts you.”  The latter feels awfully close to “because it hurts you, I’m sorry I’m me.”

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anisotrophic

 

29 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

there’s a big difference between “I’m sorry this incompatibility we share strains and hurts both of us” and “I’m sorry this core piece of who I am hurts you.”

Oh, agreed.

 

Note that this thread started with me feeling guilty/bad/ashamed about my sexuality. I do my best to reassure him, and he does to reassure me. The hurt/guilt hopefully becomes less acute and less frequent over time.

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Sometimes we need to get over ourselves.

 

Understanding that a partner is having a hard time doesn't have to be about you, even though your orientation may be a factor in it.It is really about them and what they are going through. We tend to trip over our guilt and in the process make things about us.

 

I have said "I'm sorry that me being so relentlessly sexual makes things harder for you." Without feeling guilty about being sexual. It was HIS difficulty, and not the time for me to marinate in my guilt - which I could do at another time if necessary. Or, he'd never have my support in recognizing his day to day challenges.

 

These days, it is more about "I'm sorry you aren't feeling loved" without feeling guilty that I don't act like I'm sexually attracted to him when I am not. Because it isn't about me, HE needs my caring when he's feeling hurt. If I went "I wish I could act attracted to you, I'm sorry this core piece of me hurts you" etc. He'd only feel like I was rubbing salt in his wound!!!

 

Our realities are our realities. It isn't required to blame someone for them.

 

Just like I felt heard when he told me that he was sorry that I was having such a hard time with sexual frustration. I never blamed him for being who and how he was, but that didn't make my difficulty any less. It was nice when he did not make it all about "poor me, asexual" - because him being asexual was NOT the problem, my sexual frustration was. Similarly me being sexual was never a problem, but him feeling overwhelmed by sex was.

 

I think it is important to not see people as problems. People find it easy to accept another, without seeing how seeing yourself as a problem too is problematic. But our egos are simply too huge to take it quietly that how we are isn't the perfect answer for someone's needs, and we keep making it about us and fail to be present for our partner in the moment.

 

Sure, it sucks that my sexual behavior is so odd that I am not able to do all the playful flirting with him now that I'm not attracted to him. But the time to bring it up is not in response to his hurt over it. I can bring it up when he is calm - as MY difficulty in which I'd appreciate his understanding/insight, or think about it on my own, instead of hijacking his hurt with my problem.

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22 minutes ago, anisotrophic said:

 

Oh, agreed.

 

Note that this thread started with me feeling guilty/bad/ashamed about my sexuality. I do my best to reassure him, and he does to reassure me. The hurt/guilt hopefully becomes less acute and less frequent over time.

Totally agreed, and I can’t think of anything you’ve said that fits into what I was referring to.  Both you and anamikanon (and your partners, from what you both describe) seem to have found successful ways to empathize over the situation without attacking or feeling attacked personally.

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32 minutes ago, anamikanon said:

Just like I felt heard when he told me that he was sorry that I was having such a hard time with sexual frustration.

I think this is the difference.  Maybe I’m reading into it but some posters don’t seem to want/feel heard in this type of sentiment and do seem to want their partners to acknowledge that (part of) the problem is their ace partner’s asexuality.  That turns it from “I’m having a hard time with sexual frustration” into “You make me sexually frustrated.”

 

Perhaps this is partly due to their ace partners making the same mistake - blaming their own overwhelmed feeling on their partner’s orientation or actions.

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50 minutes ago, anamikanon said:

But our egos are simply too huge to take it quietly that how we are isn't the perfect answer for someone's needs

Some of this is potentially easier to get past for poly folks, too...  monoamorous people don’t have the very poly sense that it’s fine, normal, and even healthy not to expect to meet all of your needs in - or meet all of the needs of - one person.  For people who don’t think in a poly way, any need they can’t meet/ have met in a single, two-person longterm relationship is going to go unmet forever.  The choice becomes “this relationship, or this need.”  That’s understandably bound to ratchet up both the guilt and the blaming.

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Maybe that’s actually where being polyamorous (in a mixed relationship) is most helpful... whether or not you opt to do so, polyamorous you always knows that - if you love your partner and want to continue your relationship, but can no longer tolerate some of your “relationship needs” going met - you can augment your relationship with another one.

 

For monoamorous people, the choice is between “live with some of my needs going permanently unmet, because I love my partner and want to continue this relationship,” or “nuke and pave” - abandon the relationship, find a new partner, and start over.

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58 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

That turns it from “I’m having a hard time with sexual frustration” into “You make me sexually frustrated.”

 

This. All of this. 

 

I came to AVEN in 2011 to figure out what was going on. I eventually posted a conversation my partner and I had where I was not understanding why she needed to "be prepared" to have sex and why sometimes that made her "too tired." I got a very succinct and helpful answer from Lucinda... she doesn't really want to have sex and sometimes the anxiety is overwhelming, hence the tired. 

 

Cool. I was eternally grateful for that information because I never would have figured that out on my own. Sounds stupid, but it never occurred to me that she genuinely did not want to have sex. That night I asked my partner if the anticipation turns to anxiety and that turns to being overwhelmed. She said yes. 

 

So, I stayed here. 

 

The information I got over the years was used for one purpose... Understanding. I didn't want to know that she's anxious so I can find a way around the anxious. That's where I think things fall apart for sexuals... Asexuality never stops being a problem to solve. There's an underlying lack of instinctual understanding... We can understand it in our heads but not necessarily our hearts and bodies... and the lack of understanding, coupled with the intense desire for intimacy, seems to create a permanent block for some people. 

 

They can't seem to get that the asexual partner isn't hurting them. It may sound like a distinction without a difference but it's not. Just like how gays getting married doesn't actually hurt conservative folk... I understand that some of them get actual, physical feelings of anger, fear and disgust, but that's their own brain doing that. Same here. My partner is asexual. It is what it is. She's not doing it to me, she just is who she is. A person cannot be hurting you just by being who they are. If your brain feels hurt, you need to change your responses. 

 

It actually is possible to feel loved without sex. It is possible to lay next to your naked partner and not feel like shit. It is possible to listen to your partner talk about sex without getting angry... you just have to do it. 

 

Problem is that damn glimmer of hope that our guts give us... Our guts that say "love comes with sex so if she loves you, it will happen eventually." Then every time it doesn't... anger and resentment. 

 

I hate SPFA right now. I miss the old SPFA. I don't feel like there's a place for me and people who don't think asexuals are deceptive and selfish, and that makes me really sad. I can't imagine going onto a lesbian site and seeing nothing but posts about how manipulative lesbians are. My partner... She learned from my questions that I got from aven. She didn't know. I didn't know. But my goal is always to understand, full stop. Not understand so I can fix it, not understand so I can play therapist... just understand. I want to know my partners. They're welcome to be whoever they are. 

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anisotrophic

I can't tell who you're referring to, @Skullery Maid, if it's me or others.

 

On my part, I'm pretty sick of Apostle making blanket statements, but I don't think I can engage -- his attitudes are generally repugnant to me, he's commonly making statements I find sexist, suggests "it" is an appropriate pronoun, stuff like that.

 

Apostle's partner does not self-identify as asexual, nor has he talked about it with her afaik (and he once panicked when his spouse saw he was on the site!). James also made a lot of blanket statements, but eventually concluded his partner is not asexual (which was nice to eventually see). Tele did some of this too, but eventually concluded the real issue was that his relationship was generally bad. Iron hamster was a goddamn riot, wow.

 

In general cishet men who "diagnose" their partners for them haven't been sounded empathetic about asexuality. That's been my take away.

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2 minutes ago, anisotrophic said:

I can't tell who you're referring to, @Skullery Maid, if it's me or others.

 

I'm general cishet men who "diagnose" their partners for them haven't been sounded empathetic about asexuality. That's been my take away.

Lol no definitely not talking about you. Not really talking about anyone specific, just a vibe. But the deception conversations seem to be forced into threads it doesn't belong in, IMO. 

 

And yeah. Cishet men who diagnose tend to... in my experience... think it's also their right to diagnose solutions. 

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I really wish there were more posts in this thread

 

 

I'd like to read more about relationships that are working well together. Very few relationships are perfect and ups and downs are part of the course. Just because your relationship didn't work out, it doesn't mean that other relationships are hopeless or doomed to failure 

 

Relationships were people have similar attitudes to sex break down too but there are many successful asexual / sexual relationships out there too, they can work and work very well and SPFA needs to hear more about these relationship rather than "can't win, don't try" relationship advice.

 

If I gave up on everything people said I wouldn't succeed in, my day would just be TV, internet and sleep.

 

We need to hear more success stories

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41 minutes ago, iff said:

We need to hear more success stories

Very true.  Unfortunately a lot of people who are generally happy don’t find their way to internet forums like those seeking answers to concerning questions do... and if they are here and then end up in happy relationships they spend more time out in the world “relationshipping” and less on the internet.

 

The exception seems to often be the LDR LTR people, maybe since they are still on the internet a lot anyway.  :)

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3 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

The exception seems to often be the LDR LTR people, maybe since they are still on the internet a lot anyway.  :)

Is this true? Which mixed couples are interweb based? I had no idea. 😂

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15 minutes ago, Skullery Maid said:

Is this true? Which mixed couples are interweb based? I had no idea. 😂

I wasn’t specifically thinking of mixed couples, just happy ones.

 

Also, I may have worded that badly.  What I meant was that it seems as though a greater percentage of people who form happy new irl partnerships vanish off internet forums shortly thereafter than do people who form happy new internet-centric LDRs.

 

I’ve only been here a little over a year so I can’t say whether or not the trend holds true here but I’ve seen it regularly on other boards I frequent.  The irl relationship people carve out more “life” time from their internet time (well, possibly excepting the gamers) and don’t reappear until they hit a rough patch and/or have kids.  The LDR people must multitask since they stick around.

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32 minutes ago, Skullery Maid said:

Is this true? Which mixed couples are interweb based? I had no idea. 😂

We began LDT. That was probably the best time in our relationship. Living together has been nothing like I imagined. I love him, he loves me, sure, but one or the other seems to be hurt in this relationship and I don't like that. 

 

When we were LDR, it was way better, because he was here only in brief spurts, so his visit was over before he was overwhelmed or I was frustrated. Now we seem more distant as an intimate relationship living in the same home, though on non-relationship aspects and companionship we get along superbly.

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user23974865
2 hours ago, anisotrophic said:

suggests "it" is an appropriate pronoun

Wut?..

 

I guess for every possible joke you can make, there really is someone out there who's not joking about it.

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Personally, I feel like "it" would be the best possible singular + non-gendered term to use (it's a word everyone is at least familiar with, unlike all that ze/hir/whatever stuff you will only ever see on the internet), but for some reason that I can't comprehend, it's considered offensive whereas "they" is somehow not, even though the latter potentially introduces an extra layer of potential confusion because it's more typically understood as a plural term.  It's just one of those weird language things that I suppose I'll never quite understand. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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41 minutes ago, Philip027 said:

Personally, I feel like "it" would be the best possible singular + non-gendered term to use (it's a word everyone is at least familiar with, unlike all that ze/hir/whatever stuff you will only ever see on the internet), but for some reason that I can't comprehend, it's considered offensive whereas "they" is somehow not, even though the latter potentially introduces an extra layer of potential confusion because it's more typically understood as a plural term.  It's just one of those weird language things that I suppose I'll never quite understand. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Reason it is offensive is because it tends to be what people call inhuman objects. So people feel like less than human if called it. 

 

7 hours ago, Skullery Maid said:

 

 

I hate SPFA right now. I miss the old SPFA. I don't feel like there's a place for me and people who don't think asexuals are deceptive and selfish, and that makes me really sad. I can't imagine going onto a lesbian site and seeing nothing but posts about how manipulative lesbians are. My partner... She learned from my questions that I got from aven. She didn't know. I didn't know. But my goal is always to understand, full stop. Not understand so I can fix it, not understand so I can play therapist... just understand. I want to know my partners. They're welcome to be whoever they are. 

I miss when Martin, Padante, Lady Girl and others were more active. They weren't always happy, but the vibe here used to be more positive and less.. judgemental against aces.

 

Which, you, ana, ani (sorry on mobile typing out your names is a pain so im shortening) have poly in common atm. Which is fine having some poly positive people. But, right now it feels like the only positive mixed ships are poly. We used to have some positive but still mono people around. 

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Reason it is offensive is because it tends to be what people call inhuman objects. So people feel like less than human if called it. 

- "They/them" also refers to inhuman objects a lot of the time

- "Inhuman" does not necessarily mean "inferior" (and honestly it's pretty conceited of humans to think so)

 

So yeah, still doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

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They and them get used for a broad range of things, living and not, human and not.  It and that tend to be used solely for inanimate objects and “sub-human” living things.  Some people even find “it” offensive when applied to pets.

 

A universally-accepted singular pronoun would be grammatically  nice, though.

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anisotrophic
22 hours ago, iff said:

I'd like to read more about relationships that are working well together. Very few relationships are perfect and ups and downs are part of the course.

I feel bad talking about mine going well, because it seems like I'm really lucky

 

(That is: my partner is romantic and otherwise physically affectionate, his sexuality is just indifferent rather than averse, there's no "gas" in the metaphorical car but also almost no "brakes", & he experiences physical pleasure. And we're really good at communicating, it seems. We were friends first, met via online conversation. Lots of things that seem to make it more likely to work out.)

 

I worry about setting bad expectations for things working out well for others.

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57 minutes ago, anisotrophic said:

I feel bad talking about mine going well, because it seems like I'm really lucky

 

You are lucky, that's true, but your positive experiences, the work you've put in, the ways your personality and mindset contribute to your relationship going well... that's highly relevant information to other people trying to make it work. ^_^

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Guest Jetsun Milarepa
On 3/23/2019 at 6:01 PM, anisotrophic said:

I can't tell who you're referring to, @Skullery Maid, if it's me or others.

 

On my part, I'm pretty sick of Apostle making blanket statements, but I don't think I can engage -- his attitudes are generally repugnant to me, he's commonly making statements I find sexist, suggests "it" is an appropriate pronoun, stuff like that.

 

Apostle's partner does not self-identify as asexual, nor has he talked about it with her afaik (and he once panicked when his spouse saw he was on the site!). James also made a lot of blanket statements, but eventually concluded his partner is not asexual (which was nice to eventually see). Tele did some of this too, but eventually concluded the real issue was that his relationship was generally bad. Iron hamster was a goddamn riot, wow.

 

In general cishet men who "diagnose" their partners for them haven't been sounded empathetic about asexuality. That's been my take away.

I've been saying this for over a year now. There's a difference in being here because you have an actual ace partner and because you just have a poor relationship with a sexual partner.

Some folk should learn to move on with their lives and not hang about like a bad smell.

Are there any sites for cuckolded cis het folk? If not, there should be.

 

Refreshing to see the 'positive sides' posted at last.

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