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Shame about seeking & receiving sex


anisotrophic

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@Telecaster68 So it doesn't switch right off? Well that's a bummer. I guess though... I've been thinking about it a lot, that I'm older, I weigh more, I don't even know this body anymore in a sexual sense. I hoped it be like riding a bike. 😂

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Just now, Telecaster68 said:

Nope. It's more fun trying to switch it back on than trying to switch off was though.

Hahahaha I'm looking forward to it VERY MUCH. 

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anisotrophic

I can't really figure it out anymore... I mean, trying to remember what it was like, from 20 years ago. I think there were moments.

I was not, generally speaking, attractive. I'm not sure if I'm describing a physical thing, maybe there's a personality that gets friendzoned. I pursued at times, rather than resign myself to it. But I suspect men usually said "yes" because socialization had not taught them to say "no".

I think I'd really rather not hope that anyone will be attracted to me, not for a while. The yearning only stings, it's not helpful.

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4 hours ago, anisotrophic said:

 

I can't really figure it out anymore... I mean, trying to remember what it was like, from 20 years ago.

 

*nods*

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On 3/18/2019 at 5:12 AM, Skullery Maid said:

Once I said something like "maybe I should reject you constantly for half a decade and see how you feel" to which she replied "lol as if you could do that." I lost my shit and shouted about how, yes, exactly, she has absolutely no idea what it feels like to not be wanted. None. She's only ever known relationships where she was wanted. 

I think this is the biggest problem. There simply is no equivalent for sex that could be refused to even give a sense of perspective.

 

My ace and I have a very stimulating relationship now that is more a mix of coparenting, intellectual companionship and etc. The sexual side is gone. The emotional side is massively blunted.

 

It is a very functional relationship, but for me, I am very aware that this is the residue of what I felt - a kind of partial moving on. For him, he isn't comfortable with the idea of me moving on in the least, but for practical purposes experiences no problem or even gets why what we have now is not my ideal of a relationship - for him, it works brilliantly.

 

Given that I'm not as interested, this doesn't bother me in the least anymore. Used to bother me a lot more when I expected a sexual and emotional aspect to the relationship. Now? Shrug. If he thinks we are doing great, excellent. I do genuinely like him and enjoy his company. This is good. There is mutual respect, there is caring. There is trust and comfort. There isn't intimacy, which is a good thing given neither of us find the other attractive.

 

Not interested in talking about what is missing. At least not with him.

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On 3/17/2019 at 7:42 PM, Skullery Maid said:

she has absolutely no idea what it feels like to not be wanted. None. She's only ever known relationships where she was wanted. 

To piggyback onto the first bit of what anamikanon wrote... she likely wouldn’t have any idea anyway because she doesn’t get (or need) the same thing out of being wanted to begin with.

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10 minutes ago, anamikanon said:

Not interested in talking about what is missing. At least not with him.

I hate talking about it. Avoid it like the plague. There's no point and it ultimately makes us both feel alone. 

 

My partner doesn't actually think she's asexual... she's met some people and has a mutual crush on a poly friend. She says that she could fuck someone else with no problem. We have an open relationship that she's mentioned about 4 times in the last 2 weeks, so I'm pretty sure something is going on. I just really, really don't care. 

 

There was a sexual member here ages ago who was also a licensed psychologist. She had a several year long asexual relationship that ended. She always said that the thing with sacrifice is that sexuals don't actually need to do it... We're surrounded by people who can match our emotional and physical needs and make us feel whole. Sacrificing in a situation where supply is bountiful... it's not necessarily healthy and it does wear a person down. 

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22 hours ago, Skullery Maid said:

@Telecaster68 So it doesn't switch right off? Well that's a bummer. I guess though... I've been thinking about it a lot, that I'm older, I weigh more, I don't even know this body anymore in a sexual sense. I hoped it be like riding a bike. 😂

Hahaha. I've wondered about this too. I've never been hesitant about sex, but these days I wonder if I'll remember what to do when I actually am with someone who desires me.

 

Though so far, I certainly am not hesitating to want it, including getting obsessed when I inadvertently aroused someone I wasn't in the least attracted to, because I didn't think my actions were sexual (they certainly have done nothing to my ace for several years....) And for weeks, all I could think of was the ease with which I aroused someone. Even if it was someone I didn't want. lol

 

22 hours ago, CBC said:

(apparently we talk about sex more when we're not having it and not even in a relationship anymore).

This happens in our home too. My ace is a champion when it comes to intellectual and philosophical conversations about sex, and I am well... fascinated about sex anyway. Not just doing, but the human and psychological side of it.... we still talk about sex almost daily or at least several times a week, which when put in the context of us not having sex with each other seems.... absurd.

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3 minutes ago, anamikanon said:

My ace is a champion when it comes to intellectual and philosophical conversations about sex, and I am well... fascinated about sex anyway. Not just doing, but the human and psychological side of it.... we still talk about sex almost daily or at least several times a week, which when put in the context of us not having sex with each other seems.... absurd.

Hahaha SAME. My partner used to do sex work, she's very open and very interested in it, so we talk about it a lot. The way she talks you'd think we have an active sex life, and that bugs me but it's whatever. 

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5 minutes ago, Skullery Maid said:

Sacrificing in a situation where supply is bountiful... it's not necessarily healthy and it does wear a person down. 

*nods*

 

There are doubtless situations where - for other reasons, like kids or housing or finances pr whatever - sacrificing makes overall sense... but probably many more where it does not.

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2 minutes ago, Skullery Maid said:

My partner doesn't actually think she's asexual... she's met some people and has a mutual crush on a poly friend. She says that she could fuck someone else with no problem. We have an open relationship that she's mentioned about 4 times in the last 2 weeks, so I'm pretty sure something is going on.

This is interesting. I have at times wondered - well, I guess every sexual meeting asexuality has probably wondered whether it is something about the current relationship that is a-sexual. Though of course my ace turned out to be an actual ace... but I have in the past felt sexually "dead" about an abusive partner. Zero interest in sex. I guess if she has "moved on", she may have lost interest in sex with you.

 

That said, serial monogamy isn't polyamory. If she's moved on from you to someone else, it is just plain old moving on.

 

2 minutes ago, Skullery Maid said:

There was a sexual member here ages ago who was also a licensed psychologist. She had a several year long asexual relationship that ended. She always said that the thing with sacrifice is that sexuals don't actually need to do it... We're surrounded by people who can match our emotional and physical needs and make us feel whole. Sacrificing in a situation where supply is bountiful... it's not necessarily healthy and it does wear a person down. 

Truly. That is the suckiest part. For a long time, I used to feel like I was "stuck" in this relationship that I couldn't dump and now if I had another partner, it would be very complicated to make him a primary and without that, I'd still be reduced to planning time into my schedule for him - not very likely. I live in my head - preferrably alone. So it seemed like a cheating situation.

 

Funnily, the situation hasn't changed. I'm not likely to dump my ace. But now that I'm not attracted to him, it doesn't feel a whole lot different from dating someone else with my mom at home, say.

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6 minutes ago, anamikanon said:

This is interesting. I have at times wondered - well, I guess every sexual meeting asexuality has probably wondered whether it is something about the current relationship that is a-sexual. Though of course my ace turned out to be an actual ace... but I have in the past felt sexually "dead" about an abusive partner. Zero interest in sex.

This one - how to distinguish the two - befuddles me as well, especially when I take into consideration people like serran who discovered they really were sexual but who (outside of the current relationship) seem free of many of the defining characteristics lots of sexual people here associate with sexuality.

 

It’s so hard to tease apart behavior, a general understanding of “want,” and the small-but-crucial details behind it.

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@anamikanon I do wonder how much of my speculation about what she's up to is projection. I had to, in great detail, explain to her that her crush does in fact like her back. She's got that asexual thing where she doesn't even notice other people's intentions.

 

We went into it with a bigger mismatch that she'd ever admit. I'm almost a decade older... I was 31 and she, 23, when we got together. I knew myself. She said she had mostly been involved in heavy bdsm but hated it... I'm excruciatingly vanilla. I've spent a decade assuming that's the secret big issue. She disagrees but I can't shake the feeling, so ya know, it may just be my brain. 

 

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2 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

There was a particular (drunk and stoned, obvs) game of Cards Vs Humanity in which my wife was coming up with stuff that really pissed me off....

Lol what were some of the cards?? 

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11 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

I can't remember exact wording but there was one which strongly implied she was up for multiple partners, rather than, you know, no partner, and it was a card where she brought sex into it rather than the card already being explicit filth.

Oh yeah i know that stuff very well. It's infuriating. 

 

We were watching 40 Days 40 Nights and she said "wow, I don't think even I could go that long" and I glared, hard. In my head. Outwardly I was like lol no kidding hahaha. 

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13 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

I can't remember exact wording but there was one which strongly implied she was up for multiple partners, rather than, you know, no partner, and it was a card where she brought sex into it rather than the card already being explicit filth.

Ah yes, mine does this too. Not so much on the sexually explicit, but implying that he's very sexually experimental/open kind of thing, when.... sigh.

 

I even talked to him about it and he's like well, conceptually, what he said seemed right to him. And since it is all concepts to him, he can sound like he has no issues with things that would make me balk. He has no concept of sexual talk with him in context. He could probably discuss BDSM etc without seemingly having no limits whatsoever. Nothing taboo, no holds barred. It is all... philosophical in that sense, while we'd probably talk from a context of what we are and aren't okay with.

 

This is actually how our relationship got into the sexual zone pretty fast. I had no freaking idea that all the sexually accepting and curious world view was about the idea of sex rather than the activity of sex in which he was a participant. lol

 

I'd be furious, except with time it is quite obvious that he does indeed have a fairly open attitude to sex, even though he isn't interested in the act. On his part, he is honestly conversing, just as an idea and not from a perspective of personal preference. And I am like FACEPALM

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3 minutes ago, anamikanon said:

Not so much on the sexually explicit, but implying that he's very sexually experimental/open kind of thing, when.... sigh.

He has zero imagination/preference with himself in frame, so his view is more likely to be about the nature of specific actions or seeing how something could fulfill some need or some psychological connection etc rather than actual details of the actions, which are foggy, since he isn't in the picture at all and has no idea what he'd do or whether he'd like it.

 

Like he could probably discuss "How far should dangerous BDSM play go" and bring up ethical lines, risks, trust, safety and what not, as long as you don't ask him what he'd like to do. 😂😂😂

 

You'd sound chicken if you hesitated to endorse something you didn't feel comfortable with. He's not talking of his comfort with anything at all, merely all possible actions, their implications... and dwarfing your forwardness with everything possible about sex.

 

It is BIZARRE.

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For years I used to get excited by my husband’s threats/broken promises:

 

”If you keep doing that I will pin you down and have my way with you”  (It literally took me  forever to realize he never meant it.)  

 

That and “Stop that or I’ll have my way with you until your eyes roll.” If I had a dollar for every time he threatened (promised?) sex....

 

The spectrum went from hope, to thrill, confusion, uncertainty, disillusionment, anger, bitterness, acceptance, and eventually landed at “find a lover”.

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5 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

I guess asexuals in these kinds of conversations start from not wanting to do any of it at all, so it's all abstract.

 

Kind of a bit like conversations I have with a friend about what we'd do if we were in the Resistance during WW2 and were caught by the Nazis. Would we give up our compatriots' names under torture or not? Fun and interesting conversation, but not coming from any thought we might actually have to do it.

Exactly. You may say you'd be chicken and give up your compatriots or you may say you'd take their names to your mass grave, but it is all a mind game rather than an actual consideration of what YOU WANT to do - which more accurately would be to not be captured by the Nazis. ROFL

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5 minutes ago, Traveler40 said:

For years I used to get excited by my husband’s threats/broken promises:

 

”If you keep doing that I will pin you down and have my way with you”  (It literally took me  forever to realize he never meant it.)  

 

That and “Stop that or I’ll have my way with you until your eyes roll.” If I had a dollar for every time he threatened (promised?) sex....

 

The spectrum went from hope, to thrill, confusion, uncertainty, disillusionment, anger, bitterness, acceptance, and eventually landed at “find a lover”.

Oh god, I've been here. And all the steps after that. Right to the point of "find a lover"...

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What I don't get is where he gets all the creativity from. He says it is just "conditioned" - you read books, watch films, hear people talk.... and that is it. So he can 'get' sexual jokes, innuendo, do all the right sex talk.... and it is a freaking conversational skill or general knowledge or something.

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3 minutes ago, anamikanon said:

What I don't get is where he gets all the creativity from. He says it is just "conditioned" - you read books, watch films, hear people talk.... and that is it. So he can 'get' sexual jokes, innuendo, do all the right sex talk.... and it is a freaking conversational skill or general knowledge or something.

I agree with him there.  It’s no harder to learn to talk the talk (and even walk the walk at a surface level) than it is to learn any other role.  The world is full of references for good boss, good audience member, good friend, good child, good sex partner, etc.  If you’re not put off by sex conceptually it’s easy to discuss, make jokes, say the expected stuff, etc.

 

It’s probably more like work roles than theatrical roles, though, because most people know theatrical roles are based in reality whereas it’s reasonable to assume many people are purely acting when it comes to “boss who really cares about your husband’s mother’s bunion” or “employee who genuinely wants to work 25 hours of unpaid OT.”

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39 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

What I don't understand is how it can be true and asexuals can have no idea that sex is important to sexuals. Not to share that importance, or empathise, or get it intuitively, but to be able to rationally figure it out, as intelligent, informed people. I don't understand why people are so passionate about soccer, but I don't assume they're pretending.

I’m not sure exactly what the difference is, but there is one.

 

Part of it for aces who are okay having sex could be that the aspects you can see - the physicality of sex, the big O and getting there together - aren’t that different.  It’s the emotional pieces you can’t see that are.

 

Also, and we’ve talked about this before, sports fandom is so visible.  We see real people involved all the time.  With sex, we see the media representation out in public but the real people are largely in private.

 

Even for sexuals, from what people regularly say here, the joking and the banter and the public stuff is (or at least appears to be) a bit of a role.  How quick people are with an innuendo and how much they brag about their exploits doesn’t seem to equate to how they see or treat sex in private.

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30 minutes ago, CBC said:

 

My husband gets sexual humour easily, but totally blanks on being able to participate in discussions with other people... which makes sense if you can't relate to anything. I don't think he could fake that one to save his life. He's told me about conversations from his university years where he just went silent when all his friends started talking about girls and sex.

 

I had zero problem keeping up (or leading) these discussions, but with my (all male) friends they were mechanical and not emotional.  By that I mean they were talking about what they put where and about arousal/bodily responses, and not about their emotions/thoughts/feelings.

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2 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

Much of the focus on sex in TV drama, for instance, isn't explicit sex scenes, it's about the emotional weight of sexual relationships.

We’ve talked about this too.  I can’t speak for everyone but 1) it seems like people may be drawn to different types of entertainment and therefore exposed to different things and 2) when we do watch the same things our perspectives color what we see.

 

I think it would be difficult not to notice that sex - like sports - is a big focus in our society.  What doesn’t come across is how sex is what builds relationships (rather than “relationships can be a way to get sex”).

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23 hours ago, CBC said:

Yeah he just went dead silent, from what I understand. Zero ability to relate or fake it.

I’d had as much sexual experience as a lot of them had...  so when they were talking about the mechanics of sex (and they never talked about the emotional components of relationships, except if they were pissed about being cheated on) there was nothing to fake.

 

In terms of relating, when I couldn’t it was easy (and perhaps correct) to write off as the, err, inherent difference between pitching and catching,

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I’ve also always had a strong interest in medicine/anatomy/physiology and a good imagination for physical stuff so from that standpoint I knew way more about my body and often way  more about theirs than they did.

 

I knew - and know - a ton about sex.  Everything, it seems, except what it’s like (especially from a brain perspective) to actually experience it as a sexual.

 

Sort of like how I know everything about eating and food except what it feels like from inside the head of someone without an eating disorder history.

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On 2/26/2019 at 10:18 PM, anisotrophic said:

In the last year, one of the things I wonder a lot about is whether I was on some level more comfortable with someone that wasn't attracted to me -- because I wasn't comfortable being female. I don't feel dysphoria, but... maybe I was unlikely to settle down with a heterosexual man? Maybe someone being attracted to my female-ness felt like pressure to be ... female?

I was only reading the thread out of idle curiosity, but this sounds so familiar. So familiar... Except that I used to be on the other side of it.

 

Reading about these kinds of personal experiences is a sobering reminder to me that I should not be in a relationship. I should be (and I usually am) thankful for being single, and sparing myself and some other person out there a lot of unnecessary trouble. The concept of wanting your partner to initiate something as an expression of appreciation is something that I can easily understand, and it's something that I can definitely relate to, a lot. But the concept of "needing to feel desired" is just... completely alien to me.

 

I went through so many arguments with my girlfriend where she would tell me something like "I don't love you, I love that girl that I've told you about", and then I'd literally say "okay" and I'd ask her if she wanted to break up and be friends, and then she would invariably say no. That was the point when I would usually get very upset. The way she felt about me made no difference to me, but I always felt that it was extremely important for me to know what she needed or wanted from me. I didn't want to be in a relationship where my efforts were unwanted, because it really was an effort, even though I did like her a lot. Relationships are completely unnatural to me. I told her that it would bother me if she wanted to be with other guys (I really don't like anything resembling competition), but that I didn't mind it if she wanted to be either sexually or romantically involved with women (because to her it was clearly a different type of attachment, more like yin-yang than "competition"), especially during our long-distance phase. It didn't help.

 

We met on a forum meant specifically for people who prefer to avoid intimate relationships and social contact in general. She specifically told me more than once that a big part of what made her comfortable with me was the fact that I didn't show any sexual interest in her despite being in contact every day and despite finding her attractive. When we met in person, she kept telling me "I don't know how to do the whole girlfriend thing", and I kept telling her "I don't want or expect you to", but it didn't seem to help. I knew from the start that she had even more issues than I do though, so I take my share of responsibility for the slow-motion drawn-out disaster. I have the feeling that she regrets the relationship as a whole. But I don't. I kinda wish I could have also made her feel positive about the experience and even the failure itself, but I guess that's just not up to me.

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anisotrophic

Wow, the insensitivity of others' partners is so awful. I ... gosh, I mean... my partner would never say what @Traveler40's said, what a mindf**k thing to do. OTOH he wasn't role-playing het guy anyway, already comfortable with not sticking the het male script, so maybe there is that? But then, @Telecaster68's wife did things like that too -- why??

I get the feeling my partner would say "what the heck". (I don't want to bother him right now with the topic, he's really busy. Me too.) And @Skullery Maid that sounds just, so, ugh. It's wonderful that you can be moving on!!

Also, @anamikanon were you implying your partner "talks like he's OK with BDSM but isn't"? More misleads? That sucks. But maybe you just meant that he's passive.
 

Spoiler

My partner talked like he was OK with things because he was OK with those things, he just wasn't interested in them. I can see this rapidly becoming obvious if expecting someone to behave dominantly. Maybe that's the distinction.

Because in the context where I was taking the lead, it's entirely possible to do the things. But I experienced the difference between "passive" and "submissive". It was nice of him to play along with things! I appreciate that. But he didn't *want* it. Eventually I feel silly about it, no matter how good-natured he is. I guess I'm embarrassed, but not hurt.


... so, in this context, with my partner being very understanding, I guess it makes sense that I feel pretty content. I'm not suffering from the added issues of misleading/insensitive behavior. We love each other and want each other to be happy. I feel like... no rush on the sex thing. I'm not comfortable with him now & his lack of desire... but that's okay, it doesn't feel integral now. I had a lot of emotional response before which is pretty normal to have, and I think I had to work through all that and be comforted. (and he was really patient with all that! still is, it doesn't disappear, just subsides)

@burobu it's kind of similar but not? For example, he's fine with me being sexual with other men, or at least he was in the past (or rather, we were with each other), and supportive of that happening (again/more) someday. Unlike what you've described, we've been very romantic / communicative / emotionally close / sympathetic. I guess we're very secure with each other?

It's not that I need my partner to initiate as an expression of appreciation (he could probably do that, if he put his mind to it), it's just disappointing that he doesn't intrinsically experience desire for this thing (or me), no hunger/pull/desire/fantasies. But romantic and physical and emotional affection are in abundance. The split attraction model was very much a "holy shit" moment (for both of us) where all the pieces fell together basically immediately upon learning about it. Kind of wild. Which is why I care a lot about the visibility of asexuality, I hope it continues to increase.

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user23974865
3 hours ago, anisotrophic said:


@burobu it's kind of similar but not? For example, he's fine with me being sexual with other men, or at least he was in the past (or rather, we were with each other), and supportive of that happening (again/more) someday. Unlike what you've described, we've been very romantic / communicative / emotionally close / sympathetic. I guess we're very secure with each other?

Yes, in those regards it's very much different, which is definitely a good sign for you. :lol:  You wouldn't be posting about bumps in the road anyway if your relationship was generally like mine was. There wouldn't be a road for bumps to be found in, just thick uncharted jungle.

 

It just really caught my attention when I read what you said in particular about being drawn to someone because they don't seem particularly attracted to you. On that forum that I was talking about (it was about "schizoid personality"), back when it was still active, that was kind of a recurring theme. There were a few regular members who were sort of dumbfounded by the very fact that they ever got married (and still dumbfounded about what their spouses expected from them), but mostly it was sporadic posters, mainly women, who showed up looking for advice with failing relationships and then eventually realized that they had a pattern of being attracted to men who weren't attracted to them. So I guess "it's a thing". Within that realm, you're probably one of the lucky ones.

 

3 hours ago, anisotrophic said:

It's not that I need my partner to initiate as an expression of appreciation (he could probably do that, if he put his mind to it), it's just disappointing that he doesn't intrinsically experience desire for this thing (or me), no hunger/pull/desire/fantasies.

This is part of what got my mind wandering into my own personal story. Because the main lesson I take from the relationship I had is that I would inevitably make anyone feel unwanted, which defeats the purpose of a relationship to begin with. I could find a million different ways to express sincere appreciation, but I simply wouldn't be able to express desire (both sexual and emotional), because it just short-circuits my brain. I have no particular issue with sex, but I quickly realized that I'm basically indifferent to it (just as I'm indifferent to much everything else). Things and people and thoughts and activities are interchangeable in my head. I drift off. I get bored. I grow weary. And I guess what makes it worse is that I have a normal sex drive, maybe higher than average, and I'm very much heterosexual (which I guess is part of why any hint of "competition" makes me more aggressive than I'm comfortable with). I'm just not particularly interested in the act itself. When I thought of sex with her, I thought of it (and talked to her about it) mostly like "let's try this today, it will be fun".

 

It was actually kind of a problem that I was more interested in pleasing her than in pleasing myself in the act together with her. She seemed very conflicted about it. As far as my own satisfaction was concerned, I could just as well simply hold hands with her for a while, and then please myself later on at a more convenient time. Given how that's less complicated, it's generally what I would prefer. When I read about people's frustrations with their partners' failure to meet their "desire to feel desired", it resonates with memories of moments I never realized had anything to do with that, even though this was something I thought I was attuned to at the time. And if I think about it, that's really inevitable, because I would never even want to be in a relationship where I'm not the more assertive one. Long story short, 2 + 2 = 4, the sky is blue, and I should just stay away from relationships altogether. :P

 

The other part of what got me thinking of my personal story was what you said about being drawn to men who aren't attracted to you "because then you don't feel pressured to be a woman". Those women who would ask for advice on that other forum were usually more feminine than average, but my girlfriend was the opposite. She was very pretty, but she seemed to hate it that she was pretty. She used to complain about having breasts, and she liked to wear sports bras to hide them. Her hair was messy most of the time, and she almost never wore makeup (I have to say, I don't really get why most women do anyway). But she also went through phases when she thought about modeling. Whatever she really felt about it, it was clear that she was very uncomfortable being a woman. Which was one of the reasons why I was drawn to her, because I was never comfortable being a man either. Except that I'm not conflicted about it, I simply refuse to follow manly-man stereotypes and that's about it. I felt she would be accepting of it, and to me that was enough. Not so simple in reality though.

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