Beauty Privilege

[The Dryad]

I've talked about classism and racism before as systems of social hierarchy to some extent before, but I have rarely touched on beauty privilege, but I've been thinking about it lately because I'm aesthetically driven in almost everything, except my morals.

 

Personally.... it's strange to even think that I have privilege because to me it seems that other's privileges are greater than mine, but I would be a hypocrite to deny my beauty privilege.

 

I don't know how common this is, but I've been told by strangers, family and friends that I should be a model, even a teacher, who I swear hated me, and I've sort of been "scouted" before, but I ignored it. Almost everywhere I go, someone compliments my beauty, or how cute I am. Sometimes random service people give me discounts, but that also might be because I'm nice?

 

Is this normal for any of you? Do you notice your life quality is a bit different than your...plainer friends and family? Do you honestly think this is privilege in the same sense race is and should be taken seriously?

[Guest]

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I would describe it more as being close to whatever society's heteronormative ideal is at the moment as giving someone a kind of privilege. My experiences living before and after transition to nonbinary and also how people have treated me differently based on the clothes I wear or not suggests this is true. Also nonbinary people generally are marginalized, even compared to binary trans, although they may have features considered classically beautiful. This is why I would say it is how close someone fits into certain heteronormative beauty/sexuality ideals held by society at that particular time is what seems to give someone privilege. I guess if androgyny is the future, I'm set ,tho lol. Doesn't seem to becoming widely popular anytime soon, although I think there is increasing awareness about gender identities beyond cisman and ciswoman.

[LeChat]

Yes; I've read research articles that mentioned about "attractive people" having more social, financial, etc. benefits than people who are "average-looking," due to humans' bias towards "attractive people." If you're interested, here's an example, from Psychology Today.

 

I've definitely noticed a difference. Gender-conforming AFAB girls at schools I attended definitely had more people talk to them, want to be their friend, date them, take them to prom, etc., whereas, I, who didn't care about wanting to try to look attractive to others, but was more concerned about earning high grades at school, didn't have as many friends, wasn't asked out, much, etc., nor did many people pay me compliments (other than my teachers, for how hard they noticed I was working toward my schoolwork, not my appearance.)

 

Yes. Like, @alienanteater, I, too, noticed a sudden difference in how AMAB people would suddenly notice my physical appearance, in my 20s, when I decided to randomly wear bright colors or spaghetti strap tops, due to the summer heat; then, they'd suddenly come up to me and talk to me, trying to ask me out on a date, etc., whereas, when I would wear my usual, neutral clothes, baggy t-shirts, etc., no one would care or come up to me. I've never been offered random discounts by employees at stores, without showing a coupon.

 

It used to bother me a lot that my school peers didn't think I was pretty, like other AFAB people, but now that I'm older, I don't care, because I don't feel like trying to dress myself up to try to please other people. I already tried that, with wearing more professional clothes (in order to show others I was an adult and not a child, like they'd assume), and I ended up feeling more stressed out about trying to look perfect in order for others to treat me well, the way they'd automatically treat other adults (who didn't have to wear professional clothes in order to be respected by others.)

 

Now, I kind of like it that others sometimes think I'm AMAB because they don't come up to me and criticize me for exercising or walking alone, or cat-call me, the way they do if I wear more colorful clothing and look a bit more feminine to them. I'm left alone to do what I want without having others come up to me to tell me how, in their opinion, it's not safe for me to walk/exercise alone, just like how other AMAB people in the neighborhood are left alone and allowed to exercise and walk alone, without random strangers admonishing them for it.

[The Dryad]

@alienanteater    genderless fashion is on the rise actually, not exactly androgny but close @InquisitivePhilosopher yeah, society is weird, and I feel sad that people have to conform or be admonished.

 

I usually don't dress super feminine these days, I'm trying genderless dressing for awhile (more because it was in fashion) and I still got compliments/got noticed, I found it weird, all I was wearing is basically overalls, a baker boy cap, and oversized sweater with moccasins.

[uhtred]

I dislike the term "privilege" in a lot of situations because it tries to make binary something that is not just continuous, but multi-dimensional.   Beauty is a very good example of this:

 

Take the case of a beautiful woman.  She is likely to be noticed, and to be favorably viewed by heterosexual men.   But "favorably" is too broad a term.  If the beautiful woman is an engineer, her beauty might help get her a starting job, but it might also distract men from paying attention to her engineering skills. Beauty  may not actually be a positive if she becomes a manager because if she is perceived as being sexually attractive, it may cause men (and women) to not think about  her as seriously. 

 

A beautiful woman may find some career directions easier - but others more difficult.  In my experience beautiful female engineers tend to more often be found in sales / marketing.   If that is what that want, that is completely fine, but I expect that there is a pressure to go some directions. 

 

The situation is made more complex by women's work dress not being as well defined as men's. It can be tricky to walk the fine lines between "business neat", "attractive" and "hot". 

 

I'm not talking about overt harassment (which can in principal be fixed and which I hope we all agree is clearly wrong) but about the subtle unconscious biases that can creep into people's thoughts.  There may be no identifiable action, and the people being biased may be completely unaware of their own bias. 

 

 

 

 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, uhtred said:

Beauty  may not actually be a positive if she becomes a manager because if she is perceived as being sexually attractive, it may cause men (and women) to not think about  her as seriously. 

The entire thing is very nuanced.

[Nuit_38]

I'm an ugly person, so it definitely isn't something I experienced.  Actually, four complete strangers felt the need to tell me how disgusting I am while they were pointing and laughing, and it didn't happen just once. People often make judgments based on physical appearance of other people. Beautiful people aren't an exception. I don't see it as a privilege, especially with all those "dumb blonde" stereotypes 

[Guest]

Doesn't mean the phenomenon(s) aren't real

[Joe the Stoic]

Honestly, Dryad, I think maybe you might think of the world in terms of privilege too much (even on racial and sexual issues), and I don't think that's useful, even though I'm otherwise a pretty typical Bernie supporter, progressive, and critic of "the 1%."  The truth is that the grass is always greener on the other side, and no matter how much we improve society, we're going to feel like someone else has something that we should have too.  This is an evolutionary behavior we have, because those of us who paid attention to what neighboring tribes were doing right were more likely to survive than those that didn't pay attention and got out competed.  To an extent this behavior gives us a gauge for social justice, but in an increasingly prosperous and free world, this behavior is also largely an illusion.

 

Beauty is an advantage.  Having people who enjoy looking at you is mostly a good thing.  That said, while it's usually an advantage, it can also cause problems.  Many beautiful women have to deal with stalkers and sexual assault.  That sure isn't privilege.  Some women just get mistreated and bullied by other women who feel threatened by their beauty.  That's not privilege either.  Then, there are still terrible things that can happen to beautiful people that have nothing to do with looks.  Most people will inevitably face some form of hardship or mistreatment, regardless of their intersectional privileges.  What you do with those privileges (or the lack thereof) is what really matters.

 

So if I assume that you are beautiful, as people state, then I would say that you shouldn't feel ashamed of it.  To an extent it's merely a circumstance of your birth.  Should you be ashamed of yourself for the circumstances of your birth?  Certainly not, and this is true of more than your beauty but also your race, your sex, and other such qualities.  Some of your beauty may be the result of personal choices, such as practicing good hygiene and following a proper diet.  Again, these things make you healthier and thus indirectly lower the costs of healthcare for the rest of us.  If being beautiful is a reward that you can get for being responsible, there's certainly no shame in that either.

 

What really matters is first principles.  Is an action moral, whether you are beautiful or not?  Like, I am a pretty mediocre-looking guy.  I can't hold it against every handsome man I meet just because he's an Adonis.  I am bound by the same morals as he and should be judged the same.

[Gloomy]

I've been told I should be a model (partly because I'm tall though) and have been complimented and asked out, I don't recall ever getting random discounts though. One guy did want to buy me a drink when I was at a bar once, but I told him no thank you.

 

Being attractive can open some doors for you, but it can only take you so far. I'm considered physically attractive by many people, but my social skills suck so it took me forever to find a job after college since I sucked at interviews and networking. Even now that I have a job I still don't make that much money. Although I suppose in a universe in which I was less paranoid about people and more extroverted I could get some rich guy to be my sugar daddy if I really wanted to...

 

It can also be a double-edged sword since while you may get more attention when you're attractive, you could also get negative attention. I've even had one random guy try to convince me to get in his car once, which was quite scary for me.

[thylacine]

Being pretty is not always easy.  Men hit on you, and if you ignore them, they become angry and treat you like crap for ignoring them.  Sometimes women act jealous, but they are not as bad as men most of the time.  It's annoying.  Sometimes people assume you got a job because you're pretty; they don't realize you have an education and the skills needed.  Then they say stupid stuff like, "Why even go to college?  You're pretty, you don't need college."

 

However it's nice to look in a mirror and like what you see.  The problem is when guys act like jerks and won't leave you alone.

 

People make assumptions.  They assume your life is easy because you're pretty.  It's not that easy.  It's a pain in the ass sometimes.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Rob Boss said:

Some women just get mistreated and bullied by other women who feel threatened by their beauty. 

Idk, I think there is this phenomenon where there are like they know they are perceived as superior to you and go out of their way to make you feel even worse about the fact that you are bullied based on your appearance everyday. I'm not saying every stereotypically beautiful woman is like that but the cruel, malevolent, and callous ones are definitely out there and thrive off of making other people's self esteem poor. I guess that goes for any category of people, but when you already have ptsd in part due to how you are treated based on how you look and not being heteronormative and then to have a heteronormative woman who meets society's ridiculous sex standards go out of their way to let you know how much value they have and how little value anyone who doesn't look like them have, I kind of stop feeling sympathy for my own sanity. I think that kind of behavior may be a sign of narcissism, though, which is supposed to actually be indicative of low self-esteem.

[divided_sky]

So this is a thread to brag that people find you attractive?

 

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, divided_sky said:

So this is a thread to brag that people find you attractive?

Can't speak for original poster exactly, but I doubt that it is.Even if it were Its a legitimate conversation point

[divided_sky]

2 minutes ago, alienanteater said:

Can't speak for original poster exactly, but I doubt that it is.Even if it were Its a legitimate conversation point

It is clearly at least part of the point. You can have the conversation without all the mentions of how beautiful people think you are

 

It's fine, but lol

[Joe the Stoic]

7 minutes ago, divided_sky said:

So this is a thread to brag that people find you attractive?

 

I think Dryad is trying to use this forum to have a Socratic conversation about her thoughts, nothing more.

[LeChat]

33 minutes ago, divided_sky said:

So this is a thread to brag that people find you attractive?

 

I don't think @The Dryad meant that to be the point. She likes to have philosophical discussions with others about race, privilege in society, etc. and mentioned that, she's realized that she seems to have privilege, due to others considering her attractive (not as a way to brag, but to recognize/be thankful for her good fortune, compared to others, who might not be as lucky.)

[ColeHW34]

Personally I don't care if your the prettiest or handsome person,

You get in my way I'll boss you around regardless.

Got no time for people who waste oxygen and resources and instead are worried about a stupid nail or shoes.

People like those are a big fat joke.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, alienanteater said:

I'm not saying every stereotypically beautiful woman is like that but the cruel, malevolent, and callous ones are definitely out there and thrive off of making other people's self esteem poor.

People only have power over your self-esteem if you give them power over your self-esteem. It's called self-esteem because it comes from within.

[Guest]

I am not pretty and I do not have beauty privilege but do I loath it. 

 

I have had doors literally slammed in a face when my arms are full and I need someone to open a door for me and I am ignored when I ask and then they open the door for the pretty one who does not have their arms full. I have become the punishment of games because I am so hideous that people think its a punishment to give me a hug. 

 

I got cast as an elephant for a play because I was slightly bigger then the other kids but our neighboring class never pulled such a stunt. 

 

I would sit down and then the girls would come steal my table and if they played with their food I was the one who go told "That girl is so gross playing with her food."

I could not sit down without a comment being made on me about to break the bench we sat on. 

 

If I asked for help I was ignored while the pretty one's did not have to say a word and people would do anything in their power to help. Group projects to just walking in the corridor became impossible because I was not pretty enough to help. 

 

P.A.S.S 

Pretty

Athletic 

Soical

Smart 

 

These are what you needed to be treated with respect and I was none of those. But pretty was valued above all.

 

I am not a fan of people doing anything in their power for someone because of how they look. 

 

I had two girls fight about who was the ugliest between each other in another language that I understood and they both came to an agreement that it was none of them but me who was the ugliest.

 

I would have killed to look pretty.

[The Dryad]

Author's Note

 

This isn't some random thread about bragging about beauty (mine or otherwise)

 

I meant to talk about privilege as a study of social constructs, as I tend of study these types of things, and as I mentioned before, I tend to see my station in society as "oppressed", because of my race and gender, but looking inward and based on my personal experiences, and having somewhat studied the phenomenon of "beauty privilege" before, I'm somewhat aware that I have it, but I was asking for experiences because the thing with "privilege" is that you feel blind to it except when  you see someone else's experiences compared to yours.

 

I was asking for experiences as actually see if beauty privilege is truly a thing, similar to one who realizes that white privilege is a thing, I'm sorry if you're offended.

 

*Personally, I see myself as quite plain, haha, so no I'm not bragging, but I only can go off of the things that people have told me and the way I have been treated,myself,to gauge my "privilege".

[Guest]

8 hours ago, Winter Spirit ❅ said:

People only have power over your self-esteem if you give them power over your self-esteem. It's called self-esteem because it comes from within.

I think this is mostly true but it would silly not to acknowledge the influence the external treatment of others can have, since that's what this is entire thread is about. While we're on that topic, as I mentioned, sometimes it does seem like people who would be considered attractive actually have low self esteem. Maybe it is because some of the reasons discussed in this thread; maybe they are made to feel like it is their only value (I feel like society tries to send this message to women a lot); maybe its like they have a visual form of anorexia. I don't know.

 

I think it would improve everyone's mental health if we saw more variety of kinds of 'beauty' in the media. After all, while there may be some consistent things that are thought to make a person aesthetically pleasing, what is considered 'beautiful' has changed dramatically over the centuries and there really isn't a set checklist or anything that makes someone 'attractive' or 'not attractive.'

 

Going back to the quote, I  find when I am happy I other people tend to be more ok with me and I like myself better, but fighing against ptsd I also have to be tolerant with myself when I cannot always be happy. I've had to drop friends that expect constant positivity because it's just not realistic, but also realize dumping excessive negative emotions on other people is usually inappropriate. I think it is important everyone can find something about the way that they look that they like, even if it is not what society considers attractive .

[starweb]

I'm one of the ones who apparently 'cleans up nice' but most of the time I can't be bothered. I have noticed a difference in the way people treat me when I do but once again, it's not really worth the effort. I really do not care about the opinions of strangers and I don't get affirmation through my looks.

 

I have, however, been friends with some very beautiful women, some who have been models and after hanging around them I came to realize they still have problems.  Being pretty didn't stop their relationship problems, their health problems, men bothering them when they just want to sit in the coffee shop and be sad because their dog just died. It's like the very rich (I once knew a billionaire, no, I don't move in those circles, husband worked for him). They STILL have problems. Their problems might be different from the problems of 'regular' people but they still have problems.

 

I'm not sure if its the same when it comes to beautiful men, but I have noticed a tendency for people to believe them and act on their advice before anyone else's, but that might just be in my little circle.

[Dreamsexual]

.

 

[Joe the Stoic]

1 hour ago, The Dryad said:

 

I was asking for experiences as actually see if beauty privilege is truly a thing, similar to one who realizes that white privilege is a thing, I'm sorry if you're offended.

I mean, it probably is in some sense, just as white privilege is a thing in some sense.  I just think that these phenomena are complex and don't provide many useful heuristics for how to treat others.  This is why I prefer the term "advantage," because having an advantage does not imply that things necessarily go swimmingly, but that is the assumption when we say someone has a life of privilege.

 

Beautiful people, like white people, have an advantage from this quality of theirs.  Studies have shown that even babies will prefer traditionally beautiful faces over traditionally ugly ones.  Much of this bias is coded in our DNA, meaning it's not something we're going to take down easily, if we are ugly.

 

That said, there are always so many exceptions to the general trend of privilege.  If 60% of beautiful people have happy lives, while 60% of ugly people have sad lives, then you can certainly say that there is a phenomenon of privilege, but you still have 40% of beautiful people where the assumption of privilege gets you nowhere.  That's a pretty big chunk to get wrong.  If we can avoid assuming that people are straight, gay, or ace when we first meet them, even though human beings are overwhelmingly straight at large, I think assumptions of privilege (and the consequent character judgments) can be discarded too.

[Guest]

Hmm, I agree with @Dreamsexual. I think that being seen as beautiful has it's advantages. But like @starweb said, beautiful people have problems like the rest of us. 

 

As I've mentioned elsewhere on this forum, I'm very insecure about my appearance. I wouldn't be described as attractive by my society's definition of attractiveness. And yes, that does bother me. I'm fairly open about that. I've been aware of my lack of attractiveness since childhood. It's sad, but true. Kids are cognizant of such things. 

 

Yet, I'm not so insecure that I feel anger towards attractive people and any privileges they may have (I do sometimes feel jealous, tho). I do wish to be much more attractive, not so much for others but for myself (I'm a perfectionist). I don't think that wanting to be more attractive is necessarily a bad thing; it is when it takes over one's life, though. It does seem to have it's advantages, tho. 

[Dreamsexual]

On ‎1‎/‎29‎/‎2019 at 3:31 PM, Just Dani said:

As I've mentioned elsewhere on this forum, I'm very insecure about my appearance. I wouldn't be described as attractive by my society's definition of attractiveness. 

.

 

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Dreamsexual said:

I know that feeling

But since I'm not looking for a relationship, it doesn't matter too much

Hey, I just wanna look attractive for myself! 😁 

 

Damn perfectionism... 

 

I'm currently not looking for a romantic relationship, but if I was, I'd be more than a bit worried. Awhile back a friend asked me if I'd ever use a dating app. Considering that I don't have any pics of myself anywhere on the web, I'm not sure how that would work, lol! 🤣

[abandoned-account]

My mom has told me I should try making myself look conventially attractive because it would give me some “advantage” or something.

 

How about no.

[Karst]

One element of beauty that no one's really brought up on this thread so far is that fashions change.  The "preferred" body type, skin color, and so on shifts from generation to generation.  Whatever preferences we have for people who look a certain way can't be just a biological reaction.  Social conditioning plays into it, too.