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Editing marks on posts and PMs

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Heart

Hey everyone.

 

Some of you may have noticed recently that you can no longer edit posts or PMs "silently". When you edit a post, a watermark saying "edited by..." pops up automatically now with a time stamp.

 

I made that change in the control panel because of a recent discussion about members possibly editing posts after they had been reported. I admit that I did so without going through the full policy procedure. As a result, while I gave time to admods and staff to comment I did not do so in the most visible way possible and some admods did not see the discussion. Some admods agreed with this action, but some did not have a chance to discuss or voice other opinions. There was also some misunderstanding in thinking this only applied to PMs, rather than both PMs and posts.

 

Our (the admods that saw and discussed this) thought process was that this watermark would enable us to see if a post had been edited before we got to it, after it was reported. It was not my idea personally, but I agreed with it and was willing to put in the time to effect the change. I honestly did not realise people would even notice, nonetheless care. I was wrong, and I admit this.

 

Let's have a discussion. Let's talk about the pros and cons of enabling this feature, so we can make an informed decision as staff. I can walk back the change any time, though it does take some work. I can also enact the same changes to the staff groups (so that we are all under equal rules), which will take slightly more work, but which I am very willing to do.

 

Sincerely,

Heart

LOA Admin

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Sally

As someone mentioned in another thread, it makes some people wonder why the poster did the edit.   Surely there weren't that many instances of people sneaking in (or jumping in) to edit their posts for nefarious reasons?  And since we don't know if our posts have been reported anyway, we wouldn't be doing it for that reason.  I don't like it.  We have enough suspiciousness and conspiracy-theory crud on AVEN as it is, we don't need more.  

Edited by Sally
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Chihiro

I dont see any pros as of now.

 

1) It looks ugly.

2) Its distracting unnecessarily.

3) I see above post was edited. Can admods see what was the original post Sally wrote? (I doubt AVEN software has a way of tracking edit logs)

If not, it doesn't matter if Sally wrote something offensive for few seconds, realized the mistake and corrected it. Or if they corrected it after few minutes or hours.

Are admods going to rely on screenshot to see what was written before edit? Screenshots can be manipulated easily and are not reliable.

 

P.S- Apologies for using you as example Sally. Didn't know how else to explain easily.

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StomachGod

As has already been said, I don't see any actual pros for this feature.
Unless it involves saving previous versions of a post, and in that case surely only the mods need to be able to see such a thing when applicable...
However I don't really see any cons either.
Except being slightly distracting.

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Life With Masks

My opinion is that it should be visible to Mods only, but for normal users, it shouldn't be visible, for the same reasons that people have marked here.

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Tercy

Even in cases where someone edits a post after being reported, what use is that to the admods in making a decision? The fact the post was edited isn't really incriminating in itself.

 

Either way. I'm sure this forum software has an option for saving post history (i.e. versions of posts between edits). It may add a bit to the size of the database, but you should be able to wipe it every few months or so.

 

Is there no option to just block editing on posts that have been reported? I thought this was the case anyway; I tried to edit a post a few days ago, 2 minutes after I made it - and the forum said I wasn't allowed - and due to the content of the post, I assumed someone had reported it. Might be worth testing amongst yourselves. If not, maybe there's a plugin to do this.

 

Perhaps there's also an option or plugin for capturing the version of the post at the time of reporting.

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Sally

You can't edit a post because you've been reported, because you won't know that you've been reported.  If you edit it AFTER you know that you've been reported, there's  no point, is there. 

 

 

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SkyenAutowegCaptain

Speaking as a member, not an admod. 

 

I agree, it's messy, clutters the post and pointless. Most edits are just because after posting the poster has noticed a typo, spelling mistake, missed punctuation mark or similar. 

The old system where we had the option to show that we have edited a post is much better. Sometimes we want to show an edit, such as when adding to a post without making a double post. 

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Kimmie.

To be honest i don´t see that it is messy, Oh there is a new line with gray text so horrible!!

But in the same time as already been stated it those not have any actual function. I edit my post daily because i am finding speeling misstakes and want to add something.

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Una Salus Victus

It's pointless. It serves no purpose what so ever.

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Tanwen
Quote

recent discussion about members possibly editing posts after they had been reported

It's the 'possibly' I don't like -  if you can't be sure it's happening,  nor how often then why do it? I think everyone has, at some point, edited their posts maybe because we've thought better of it. As @Sally pointed out, we don't know when,or if, a post has been reported so any editing can't be for that reason. As a mod, if I thought a post was inflammatory, I'd give the poster a chance to edit it to avoid any confrontation.

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James121

I’m really pleased that this change has been made!

 

If you edit for reasons such as you missed something or notice grammatical errors, why on earth would you have an issue with it showing that you have edited it? There’s no logical reason to be concerned by it. 

 

See....I’ve edited and I’m not concerned!

Edited by James121
I like freely posting and editing.
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James121
3 hours ago, Chihiro said:

I dont see any pros as of now.

 

1) It looks ugly.

2) Its distracting unnecessarily.

3) I see above post was edited. Can admods see what was the original post Sally wrote? (I doubt AVEN software has a way of tracking edit logs)

If not, it doesn't matter if Sally wrote something offensive for few seconds, realized the mistake and corrected it. Or if they corrected it after few minutes or hours.

Are admods going to rely on screenshot to see what was written before edit? Screenshots can be manipulated easily and are not reliable.

 

P.S- Apologies for using you as example Sally. Didn't know how else to explain easily.

1) it doesn’t look ugly

2) how are you distracted by that? In what way is it distracting?

3) Hopefully the amods can see everything so there is total transparency on Aven!

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James121
2 hours ago, Kimmie. said:

To be honest i don´t see that it is messy, Oh there is a new line with gray text so horrible!!

But in the same time as already been stated it those not have any actual function. I edit my post daily because i am finding speeling misstakes and want to add something.

But you have the opportunity to write why you have edited the post. I don’t see why people are making such a big deal of it. What is there to hide about the edit?

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Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?)

@Heart what kind of forum software is this where you as an admin can't see the edits made to every post though? You should be able to see every edit made (including what was originally said) and when it was made.. isn't there something you can do at your end to turn this on instead of us having to have our posts messed up because we accidentally missed a comma or our phone did a bad autocorrect or somerhibg?

 

And if all you an see is that we edited our post (and can't see what changes we actually made) how in the heck is that going to help you, because you'll only have someone else's word to go on that something that broke ToS was said? Unless that person screensnaps the original comment, then you'll have literally zero proof that anything bad was said except the little edit sign, which doesn't help because it's very, very common to need to edit posts for typos and grammatical errors etc. 

 

I could edit this now, after posting it, and someone could then report it and say 'Ficto said Heart is a _______' and you'll see that it was edited. So does that automatically mean I said that you're a _______ just because another member said I did and my post has been edited?

 

Seriously though, how are you as an admin not able to see all edits made to posts? I thought that was a basic function of all software on a forum like this??? 

 

2 minutes ago, James121 said:

What is there to hide about the edit?

Nothing should be hidden from admods regardless though. I was under the impression they can see every edit made and what was originally said, so editing won't change anything at their end. Again if this isn't the case then I ask what kind of budget software are they using?? It's a basic method of protection for members because otherwise someone could be going around targeting people in PM or on forums saying stuff like 'youre a racist pig' then quickly editing. It's a basic safety measure for admods to be able to see all those changes to protect members. That's what I always assumed anyway.

 

People are complaining because it looks ugly (personal opinion), and also because now when I edit a misspelled word or something, everyone gets to know that I can't type for shit. Almost every single one of my posts will show I've edited them which is just silly. And again, it literally won't serve any function at all. If the mods truly can't see previous edits, then them knowing a post has been edited won't change anything at all because they'll still only have someone else's word to go on that the edit was actually made to remove something that broke ToS. How the heck are the mods to know that the edit wasn't just fixing a damn spelling mistake?

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Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?)
2 minutes ago, Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?) said:

somerhibg?

 

2 minutes ago, Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?) said:

 

And if all you an see

Things I would previously have edited that now have to be left in so that every single one of my damn posts doesn't show 'edited by Ficto at some point or another'.

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InquisitivePhilosopher
3 minutes ago, Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?) said:

...If the mods truly can't see previous edits, then them knowing a post has been edited won't change anything at all because they'll still only have someone else's word to go on that the edit was actually made to remove something that broke ToS. How the heck are the mods to know that the edit wasn't just fixing a damn spelling mistake?

After thinking more about this, I agree with what others have said: just because someone edited a post doesn't mean they originally posted something inflammatory. What if it was to fix a spelling mistake, but, say, another member wants to falsely accuse a member of saying something inflammatory when they didn't (perhaps in retaliation for suspecting or assuming a certain member previously reported one of their posts or due to jealousy)? Then a member might unfairly get into trouble for something they didn't do.

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Chihiro
24 minutes ago, James121 said:

1) it doesn’t look ugly

2) how are you distracted by that? In what way is it distracting?

3) Hopefully the amods can see everything so there is total transparency on Aven!

Its about aesthetics, it is distracting. Look at your own post where you say "I like free editing....". Look at "Posted X minute ago". Compare it to, "Edited ago by James". One of them is very distracting, because of the kind of font used, and the kind of spacing used.

 

If I start writing everything in capslock and in size 28 large fonts I doubt many people would read it. That too is distracting and people want to read something thats "eye pleasing".  

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James121
7 minutes ago, Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?) said:

People are complaining because it looks ugly (personal opinion), and also because now when I edit a misspelled word or something, everyone gets to know that I can't type for shit. Almost every single one of my posts will show I've edited them which is just silly.

Well I think this idea that it looks ugly which as you say is someone’s personal opinion is somewhat weak as an argument not to have it. It’s not like everyone has OCD.

As for knowing or believing you can’t type for shit, who cares what people think about your typing ability? Everyone knows that people have lives and post in a rush sometimes. There isn’t anyone marking our posts A - F based on use of the English language.

I like it particularly on PM because you can’t use language or say something that elicits a certain response and then alter what you originally said.

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Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?)
1 minute ago, InquisitivePhilosopher said:

After thinking more about this, I agree with what others have said: just because someone edited a post doesn't mean they originally posted something inflammatory. What if it was to fix a spelling mistake, but, say, another member wants to falsely accuse a member of saying something inflammatory when they didn't (perhaps in retaliation for suspecting or assuming a certain member previously reported one of their posts or due to jealousy)? Then a member might unfairly get into trouble for something they didn't do.

Yup. Because I have to edit almost every single one of my posts and someone who dislikes me could say 'she was actually making racist remarks about black people, but edited it quickly so she wouldn't get in trouble!'. Literally anyone could say that about any edited post, and we all know we sometimes get members here who go after certain others out of spite :o

 

If mods can't see what was originally said (which they should be able to!) isn't this causing them MORE issues and not less?

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James121
1 minute ago, Chihiro said:

Its about aesthetics, it is distracting. Look at your own post where you say "I like free editing....". Look at "Posted X minute ago". Compare it to, "Edited ago by James". One of them is very distracting, because of the kind of font used, and the kind of spacing used.

 

If I start writing everything in capslock and in size 28 large fonts I doubt many people would read it. That too is distracting and people want to read something thats "eye pleasing".  

Yet your previous post was written in blue. @Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?) Has previously posted in pink. It’s different and it’s up to you. Is that  not distracting as well? I’m sorry I just think this is not a credible reason not to have it.

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Kimmie.

So basically this can have the opposite function then what was intended. With that the "Edited .. ago by......" can make people suspicious and give someone that wants to hurt another member more tools for that.

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Tercy

Gillette ad attacking men: Opinions range from "love it" to "nah no big deal I'm tired of everyone getting worked up about it."

 

Admod adds a little "edited by" tag to posts: Outrage and rioting in the streets.

 

Only on AVEN. :P

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James121
3 minutes ago, Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?) said:

Yup. Because I have to edit almost every single one of my posts and someone who dislikes me could say 'she was actually making racist remarks about black people, but edited it quickly so she wouldn't get in trouble!'. Literally anyone could say that about any edited post, and we all know we sometimes get members here who go after certain others out of spite :o

 

If mods can't see what was originally said (which they should be able to!) isn't this causing them MORE issues and not less?

In which case the mods should only be acting on what they can see. 

The opposite of your argument is that you could write something really racist and without the edit showing, you could remove it and deny you ever wrote it and the post wouldn’t even display that you did edit it.

 

For me it’s simple (I know I don’t speak for everyone) 

 

Nothing to hide, no concerned by transparency, no issues with edit being shown.

 

May be an even better way for this to be resolved is that you can edit the post/message but not only does it show you edited it but you can click to see the original message/post. That way your concerns about being falsely accused of something are completely eradicated!

 

Total transparency.

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ryn2
5 hours ago, Heart said:

Our (the admods that saw and discussed this) thought process was that this watermark would enable us to see if a post had been edited before we got to it, after it was reported.

The original option to not show editing warned that administrators would (might?  I don’t remember the exact wording) see that posts had been edited.  That made me think there was some sort of log function.  Is that not true?

 

I’m asking because - while I dislike the change (every time I fix a mid-line carriage return it now looks like I went back and made my post more palatable after I took heat for something) - I can understand why it might be be necessary if it’s the admods’ only tracking tool.

Edited by ryn2
typed “thing” for “think”

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James121
2 minutes ago, James121 said:

May be an even better way for this to be resolved is that you can edit the post/message but not only does it show you edited it but you can click to see the original message/post. That way your concerns about being falsely accused of something are completely eradicated!

 

Total transparency.

@ryn2

 

Would this not resolve what you are concerned about?

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Chihiro
Just now, James121 said:

Yet your previous post was written in blue.  Has previously posted in pink. It’s different and it’s up to you. Is that  not distracting as well? I’m sorry I just think this is not a credible reason not to have it.

You clearly don't understand how a website is aesthetically designed. And why its designed such a way. And whats the difference between user preference and site preference regarding the aesthetics. I am not going to give a lesson on this. Doesn't matter now.

 

If you have your points, please post it. No need to rebuff every point that says "I am against this feature". You can make your point by saying one strong reasoning which automatically makes other parties reasoning trivial. 

IMO, your 3rd point was enough already as a strong argument and there was no need to pick on trivial points like "ugly" or "distraction". In fact, I strongly believe in your 3rd argument, but I am waiting for more points before I make another generic post. I don't see why you are pointlessly arguing over other things like color. I am no longer arguing about anything more, I will wait for more opinions and then post.

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ryn2
52 minutes ago, James121 said:

I’m really pleased that this change has been made!

 

If you edit for reasons such as you missed something or notice grammatical errors, why on earth would you have an issue with it showing that you have edited it? There’s no logical reason to be concerned by it. 

 

See....I’ve edited and I’m not concerned!

With the old settings you always had the choice of showing that the post had been edited... so you could continue to do so (even if the change is rolled back) if you like it.

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James121
2 minutes ago, Chihiro said:

You clearly don't understand how a website is aesthetically designed. And why its designed such a way. And whats the difference between user preference and site preference regarding the aesthetics. I am not going to give a lesson on this. Doesn't matter now.

 

If you have your points, please post it. No need to rebuff every point that says "I am against this feature". You can make your point by saying one strong reasoning which automatically makes other parties reasoning trivial. 

IMO, your 3rd point was enough already as a strong argument and there was no need to pick on trivial points like "ugly" or "distraction". In fact, I strongly believe in your 3rd argument, but I am waiting for more points before I make another generic post. I don't see why you are pointlessly arguing over other things like color. I am no longer arguing about anything more, I will wait for more opinions and then post.

 I wasn’t arguing over colour. It was an example of how ridiculous this distracting idea is and that’s all.

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ryn2
8 minutes ago, James121 said:

@ryn2

 

Would this not resolve what you are concerned about?

I think edits (both their presence and the before and after content) should be available to the admods.  That’s part of why forums have admods.

 

I don’t see any benefit in making them visible to other posters by default unless it’s the only way the admods can also see the information.

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