Chimeric

This is important to me.

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Evil
1 hour ago, Sage Raven Domino said:

To avoid drama, I just use unambiguous terms like 'AFAB' when referring to biological differences ;)

Female and male are perfectly adequate and unambiguous terms to point out biological sex to most people, myself included. Also, we don't assign sex, we observe and acknowledge - unless a rare intersex case, ofc.

 

 

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Calligraphette_Coe
10 hours ago, Evil said:

Female and male are perfectly adequate and unambiguous terms to point out biological sex to most people, myself included. Also, we don't assign sex, we observe and acknowledge - unless a rare intersex case, ofc.

 

 

Why, then, do males have nipples and human male lactation, although very rare, has been documented? I suspect you'll say that exceptions never disprove the rules, and you're probably right. But could it also be nature's way of saying , "Just in case"?

 

I look at what happened to me-- I know I'm not XXY, but why did I end up so androgynous and have some of the rare life threatening conditions that I have? Was it the DES? I guess there's a perfect case of unwise things being done with the best of intentions. That there are some things that maybe shouldn't be messed with., like feeding growth hormones to lifestock. And I've seen it, too-- I took the medical advice and didn't transition because the advice said it would have been terribley unwise. And got  a preview of just how bad 'terribly unwise' could get. I've seen people die because they didn't take the advice.

 

Too, I've seen that another technology that wasn't around 35 years ago ended up allowing me to lead a normal life despite the problems. And some people would say "Lead, follow or get out of the way." Like you, I would often say to them, "Not so fast. Have you looked at the downsides with an honest eye?"

 

I think at least on that, we agree.  The rest? Not so much. And maybe it's because I feel the awful pull of being between Scylla and Charybdis. Nor do I have any doubt you've have seen your own Strait of Messina, too.

 

 

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Dreamsexual
1 hour ago, Calligraphette_Coe said:

I suspect you'll say that exceptions never disprove the rules,

Isn't this just true in biology, its just how biology as a discipline works, which to my unexpert mind seems to operate on a fuzzy paradigmatical definitional logic rather than something more akin to a mathematical a priori system?  However, I'm out of my depth here, so I might just have said rubbish :)

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Ammy

I apologize, but if you are truly a "trans ally", as you claim to be, then you should be willing to change your point of view regarding the definitions of words and word usage, rather than clinging to "accepted Western society standards." Just because the trans people you are friends with happen to agree with your point of view does not make you a trans ally; it only makes you an ally to them, and specifically them.

 

Note: "accepted Western society standards", at the current time, especially in the USA, discriminate heavily against trans people. Surely then, you would recognize why, as trans allies, we should steer ourselves away from "accepted Western society standards" and seek change?

 

I am all for allowing ideas like yours to be discussed, for the purposes of giving others the opportunity to explain why they are wrong, and to give yourself the opportunity to improve and change your point of view without you being ostracized for initially stating a harmful or offensive point of view. We aren't children anymore; I think most are capable of forgiveness, and if someone were making offensive or degrading comments but apologized and changed their point of view for the better once others told them why they were being degrading, I'm sure most would be able to forgive them for it. In fact, I remember a situation exactly like this a few months back, though I do not remember the exact thread and would unfortunately not be able to link to it.

 

Yes, it should be (and likely already is) allowed to discuss biological facts, if the subject is of a purely informative discussion of biological facts. Unfortunately, science has not progressed enough to the point where trans people could change to the point where they would be biologically identical to a person who was born as-is, and until science can reach that point, there will remain biological differences between trans people and those who aren't. This is a real shame, because I wish people could just be themselves without being stuck with all of those biological annoyances, but from a purely informative point of view, I think a discussion like this can be useful to help people learn how things are, so they can be better-informed. Idealism vs. Realism. I'm on the Realism boat.

 

However, a statement like "trans women aren't women" isn't even helpful in the context of an informative discussion either. It tells us nothing about biological facts. No, dictionary definitions and "accepted Western society standards" are not biological facts. They are merely word definitions, and just because society "may not" have yet changed their accepted usage of words doesn't mean you should be adhering to their definitions. It is perfectly acceptable to consider trans women as women from a social point of view (the same goes for trans men being considered as men), and just because the definitions you are reading in your dictionary don't match up with that doesn't mean it's wrong to accept that maybe those definitions should be adjusted to begin with.

 

In any other context, you should probably refrain from bringing up those biological differences, because it wouldn't even be relevant to anything anyway and would only serve to make trans people feel invalidated. For example, say someone is suffering from gender dysphoria and writes a post to confide in people and seek support. If someone replied telling them that they're still a man/woman at the core and backed themselves up with biological facts explaining the difference, they'd still be a jerk. Comments about biological facts can still be transphobic, you know.

 

No, maybe you're not transphobic, but you are making statements which are, and are refusing to accept why those statements are transphobic. You need to realize that presentation matters, and that by making comments like these, you are presenting yourself as such. This is something that is completely under your control to change.

 

 

Also, I would just like to mention, your friends are not the be-all end-all authority on trans matters. Just because they are fine with differentiating themselves from biological men/women doesn't mean that they get to dictate how every other trans person should feel. It is perfectly reasonable for a trans person to want to be recognized as trans, but it doesn't make it wrong if others just want to be recognized as men/women like everyone else. Certain trans people embrace their identity, while certain others have a really difficult time with the dysphoria and don't even want to have to think about it. Both are valid, and they should both be respected.

 

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Dreamsexual
8 hours ago, Ammy said:

I am all for allowing ideas like yours to be discussed, for the purposes of giving others the opportunity to explain why they are wrong

I totally agree.  :)  This is exactly why free speech is important.  Of course, the dialogue is two way and they will try and change your mind in return.  But trusting that the unforced force of the better argument will prevail, however unlikely in reality, is preferable to censorship or violence.

 

 

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InquisitivePhilosopher

I'm confused. Hasn't this thread turned into the one that was originally asked for, in the Hot Box Forum?

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Dreamsexual
4 hours ago, InquisitivePhilosopher said:

I'm confused. Hasn't this thread turned into the one that was originally asked for, in the Hot Box Forum?

I'm not sure, can you explain?

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InquisitivePhilosopher

@Dreamsexual Well, in the beginning of this thread, I thought @Chimeric said that Evil's original thread that they got a warning for (in the Hot Box) was just that they wanted to hear others' differing opinions about gender, that they were open to that. I remember seeing it in the Hot Box thread, before it was removed. It just seems kind of ironic that their original discussion that they wanted to have in their Hot Box thread in the first place seems to have come to fruition, here.

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Rob Boss

Argument is over.  Time for cheeky memes.

 

Xsots5F.png

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Charna
On 2/12/2019 at 9:02 PM, Evil said:

Female and male are perfectly adequate and unambiguous terms to point out biological sex to most people, myself included. Also, we don't assign sex, we observe and acknowledge - unless a rare intersex case, ofc.

 

However, there is nothing unambiguous about the biology of sex itself. The best summary I've ever heard (from a developmental biologist) was: bimodal doesn't mean binary. And yes, intersex is rare in that it's a small percentage of the population, but the human population is huge. 1-2% of 7 billion people are millions.

 

But that's not the beef I have with this argument. Women throughout the ages haven't been discriminated or persecuted because of their chromosomes; misogyny is far older than genetics, and to reduce being a woman to biological sex is to ignore the reality of it. Being a woman is not something you can separate from the rest someone's identity; from their race, ethnicity, religion, culture etc. Same as being a man.

 

Biology as a science has a very problematic history of being used for discrimination: racism, homophobia and now transphobia. Nothing surprising about this. But people should be aware of where it lead to in the past, and should learn from it, imo.

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Dreamsexual
1 hour ago, Rob Boss said:

Argument is over.

Has the ad mod deliberation finished?  What was the result?

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Evil
On 2/13/2019 at 6:57 AM, Calligraphette_Coe said:

Like you, I would often say to them, "Not so fast. Have you looked at the downsides with an honest eye?"

 

I think at least on that, we agree. 

Correct, I think rushing in can be dangerously foolish. I'm sure there are as many things we would agree on as disagree, given the opportunity.

 

I have read your story many times on AVEN and I truly wish it could have been easier for you. I feel that you of all people here would have honestly benefitted from the things you could not have. 

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Rob Boss
3 hours ago, Dreamsexual said:

Has the ad mod deliberation finished?  What was the result?

That is not for me to say or announce.  My previous post should not be taken as an official statement, nor should any of my (or other moderators') forum posts that are not green-texted.

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Skullery Maid
On 2/13/2019 at 1:54 PM, Ammy said:

I apologize, but if you are truly a "trans ally", as you claim to be, then you should be willing to change your point of view regarding the definitions of words and word usage, rather than clinging to "accepted Western society standards." 

This. 

 

Allies provide, for better or worse, majority validation for minority viewpoints. You're an ally if you help bring trans experiences, needs and realities to the attention of the majority, and if you then stand up for the validity of those statements. You're not an ally if you say "I'm cool with trans people so long as they're the ones that tell me I don't have to change any of my opinions." That's not being an ally, that's just being a regular person who enjoys being told their right. There's nothing wrong with that... We all seek out people who reassure our own worldviews... But it doesn't make you an ally. 

 

I spent the last two years off AVEN. When I first left, it was really hard! I was used to arguing and asserting myself, and I was used to having enough people agree with me that I never, ever had to reconsider my viewpoint if I didn't feel like it. Suddenly I found myself in these really supportive, positive, productive groups of people who weren't interested in arguing... they were interested in being happy, in supporting each other's experiences and perspectives.

 

In furtherance of achieving genuine understanding of others' perspectives that I often found challenging, I forced myself to read daily news and blogs from a variety of sources that would normally upset me. Holy shit the first month of reading articles that only ever referred to white people as wypipo was hard! I would get shaky, it upset me so much. But I adjusted. I got used to it. Once I got past the immediate feeling of being attacked, I gained a much deeper understanding and I was finally able to absorb, instead of filter, what I was being told. 

 

It is not easy to grow. It hurts, to be perfectly honest. But the choice is between having the maturity to suck it up and change yourself, or to continue to hurt others because it's easier that way. 

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Calligraphette_Coe
On 2/14/2019 at 5:08 PM, Evil said:

Correct, I think rushing in can be dangerously foolish. I'm sure there are as many things we would agree on as disagree, given the opportunity.

 

I have read your story many times on AVEN and I truly wish it could have been easier for you. I feel that you of all people here would have honestly benefitted from the things you could not have. 

Thanks, Evil. That means a lot to me. And I'll always found that denial and wishful thinking can get one in a ton of trouble.

 

Sometimes, too, I think "Were I  a  Woman Born Woman, would I have been able to have done some of the things that _have_ gone right for me, like being able to be a creative engineer? And I'm forced to say, "Yanno, maybe not, in the place and time I was working in." So I think, "I can't have some of the things that would have made my life better, but maybe I can do what I can to expose sexism in STEM and make someone else's road easier?" I look at the lives of people like Rosalind Franklin and think how they were probably cheated of their rightful recognition. I think, "My chance of 'getting congruent' is nil but maybe helping  to do something about that injustice is the least I can do.

 

Even if I can't get past the broken bricks and cheap steel that is my less-than-perfect biology, if I'll never know exactly what I missed out on, I know in my bones that as far as being a woman, I'm a pretty good Turing Machine in the flesh, I think.

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