Chimeric

This is important to me.

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Chimeric

I've been struggling for a while now with how to word this in a way that will get me in the least amount of trouble, but I don't know that it's possible, and it's important to me that this gets out there, so here goes. And, for the record, he didn't put me up to this; I'm flyin' solo on this one.

 

Who does this website serve?

 

It claims to be for the asexual community, but I believe it would be far more accurate to say that it's for a very specific subset of the asexual community.

 

@Evil - an openly asexual man - was suspended from here the other day. Not because he was attacking or harassing or insulting or bullying anybody, not because he was spamming or trolling, not because he was telling people they can't be what they claim to be, not because he was being hateful or spiteful or bigoted in any way shape or form... but because he is adamant in recognizing the basic facts that "female" is a sex class, and that boys can't have periods.

 

Think about this for a second.

 

An asexual man, a card-carrying member of this community, was temporarily removed from this community for saying things that are completely true, because these truths may insult some people here.

 

When he invites people to tell him why his statements are untrue, his posts are deleted and he is penalized... even when they're in the hotbox, ostensibly the place created for having challenging conversations on all subjects.

 

You don't have to agree with him, you don't even have to like him all that much, but how is it fair to kick him out for saying things that are complete and honest, 100% true facts?

 

1. Female is a sex class, not a gender.

2. Although there are some communities that recognize "boy" and "man" and "woman" and "girl" as gender identities, this is not a universally accepted concept in Western society. Unless and until the widely accepted definition of those words changes to include members of both sexes, "boy" still means a "young human male," and human males of any age are not able to menstruate. That is just a fact. You don't have to like it. S-, I don't like it, I wish they did so they understood the friggen PITA it is, but we cannot deny that these are true statements.

 

And Evil was removed from his own community for saying this.

 

If he's blunt in his delivery, it's because his daily job involves delivering painful truths to vulnerable people, and this is how he's discovered it's best to do it.

 

So either AVEN is prioritizes perceived insult over delivery of the truth, or they are less interested in serving the ace community in all of its diversity and more interested in serving the ace-trans intersectional community. In either of those cases, is that fair?

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CBC

I had no idea he was suspended, jeez. Seems ridiculous. I don't have much to add, but I'm with ya on this.

 

AVEN is such an odd place sometimes; I'm a very progressive socialist, LGBTQ+ myself, and yet sometimes if you speak the truth here, you're at risk of getting made out to be something akin to a conservative bigot.

Edited by Ceebs.
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Polygon

A person being asexual doesn't exempt them from an asexual site's rules, though - like, an American breaking American laws is not given special consideration because they're American. I mean, I'm not saying all the rules are almighty, good, and invariably fair, but at the end of the day there are certain things on the books that the website doesn't allow. What might have been more ideal was to raise a conversation on the rules themselves - "why is this rule in place?", "Should it be made more lax?", "This rule should be clarified more", etc., and I'm sure these conversations have happened before, but while a website has a rule and a person has elected to follow that rule and all the others, they should probably follow it? 

 

But I don't know the whole context. Maybe the action against a person was completely uncalled for, but I don't have the full story or a big stake in this, so whatever. 

Edited by Polygon
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Chimeric
8 minutes ago, Ceebs. said:

AVEN is such an odd place sometimes; I'm a very progressive socialist, LGBTQ+ myself, and yet sometimes if you speak the truth here, you're at risk of getting made out to be something akin to a conservative bigot. 

Yeah man I hear you.

 

I dunno if his profile is still accessible, but if it is, you should check it out. The man was raised by lesbians, is openly asexual, and is dating bisexual ol' me. He's an atheist & a rabid animal rights enthusiast. He sometimes gets treated on here as though he's a close-minded, conservative bigot.

 

It's kinda nuts.

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1 minute ago, Chimeric said:

I dunno if his profile is still accessible, but if it is, you should check it out. The man was raised by lesbians, is openly asexual, and is dating bisexual ol' me. He's an atheist & a rabid animal rights enthusiast. He sometimes gets treated on here as though he's a close-minded, conservative bigot.

I did just the other day actually, after he liked a comment of mine (I think in a thread about whether asexuals should be allowed to have opinions on abortion) and replied with something about freedom of speech on here, which I agreed with. Sounds like you've got a guy with a reasonable head on his shoulders. :) I'm sorry about the ridiculous suspension thing, ugh.

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Tercy

It's funny, but just this morning I was thinking about how all the drama surrounding AVEN giving certain people special treatment had died down. There was that time just a few months ago (I think, unless my perception of time is really that skewed) where it seemed like every 6 hours there was a new thread about this sort of thing, people criticising mods for being warn/ban-happy, accusations of AVEN being "TVEN" etc. - and then it stopped - and now here we are.

 

... maybe I have psychic powers?

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StomachGod

At risk of getting a warning myself. Strict biological facts are not hate speech. So if simply declaring that is grounds to get suspended I would be very concerned.

Being ACE does not exempt one from the TOS of this site, however I would hope that there was a good reason for suspending a member.
I know that the person in question can come across a tad insensitive at times, but I fail to see how that is grounds for suspension IF this is the reason.

Edited by StomachGod
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Chimeric
5 minutes ago, Tercy said:

It's funny, but just this morning I was thinking about how all the drama surrounding AVEN giving certain people special treatment had died down. There was that time just a few months ago (I think, unless my perception of time is really that skewed) where it seemed like every 6 hours there was a new thread about this sort of thing, people criticising mods for being warn/ban-happy, accusations of AVEN being "TVEN" etc. - and then it stopped - and now here we are.

 

... maybe I have psychic powers? 

=O

You did this!!!

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Polygon
2 minutes ago, Tercy said:

... maybe I have psychic powers?

I wish I had AVEN senses... then I could leave before definition discussions. 😕

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Chimeric
5 minutes ago, StomachGod said:

I know that the person in question can come across a tad insensitive at times,

He is blunt - he knows it, I know it, I think most people here do. But afaik, being blunt isn't a sin, ya know?

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Chimeric
18 minutes ago, Polygon said:

A person being asexual doesn't exempt them from an asexual site's rules, though - like, an American breaking American laws is not given special consideration because they're American. I mean, I'm not saying all the rules are almighty, good, and invariably fair, but at the end of the day there are certain things on the books that the website doesn't allow. What might have been more ideal was to raise a conversation on the rules themselves - "why is this rule in place?", "Should it be made more lax?", "This rule should be clarified more", etc., and I'm sure these conversations have happened before, but while a website has a rule and a person has elected to follow that rule and all the others, they should probably follow it? 

 

But I don't know the whole context. Maybe the action against a person was completely uncalled for, but I don't have the full story or a big stake in this, so whatever. 

But he didn't. None of his posts are directly targeted at individual people. He engages in conversation with specific people, but he has never once said that trans isn't a valid identity, or that transwomen/transmen are terrible people, or anything actually hateful or bigoted.

 

(Edit: Also, I liked your post for the joke, not because I want you to leave the discussion. Just wanted to clarify, @Polygon!)

Edited by Chimeric
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Polygon
2 minutes ago, Chimeric said:

But he didn't. None of his posts are directly targeted at individual people. He engages in conversation with specific people, but he has never once said that trans isn't a valid identity, or that transwomen/transmen are terrible people, or anything actually hateful or bigoted.

Huh, that does seem a bit extreme, then. I try not to pass too harsh a judgment on mod actions since making decisions on what's a broken rule and what isn't is probably pretty damn hard, but obviously, yeah, they're not infallible. 

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I always wonder what sort of shit I'm gonna get myself into with things like otherkin threads. That stuff is either fantasy and imagination, or a sign of mental illness. No one is part wolf or part dragon, that's a fact. One should be able to state those things without them being interpreted as hostile invalidation.

Edited by Ceebs.
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StomachGod
Just now, Chimeric said:

He is blunt - he knows it, I know it, I think most people here do. But afaik, being blunt isn't a sin, ya know?

I'm not saying it is, not at all.
...
Besides, being blunt is normally something I get in trouble for XP

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Chimeric
4 minutes ago, StomachGod said:

I'm not saying it is, not at all.
...
Besides, being blunt is normally something I get in trouble for XP

For whatever it's worth, some of us have a deep appreciation for blunt conversation. x)

 

6 minutes ago, Ceebs. said:

No one is part wolf or part dragon, that's a fact.

There go my hopes and dreams of dragons ever being real, thanks a lot.

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Just now, Chimeric said:

There go my hopes and dreams of dragons ever being real, thanks a lot.

You can report me if you want. ;) 

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Polygon
2 minutes ago, Ceebs. said:

You can report me if you want. ;) 

"AVEN Bureau of Investigation, what is your emergency?"

 

"There's a user that won't cower in fear as I spit fire, roar, and fly away into the sunset"

 

"They didn't even flinch?"

 

"No!"

 

"We can see this is serious. We're on our way."

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Chimeric
17 minutes ago, StomachGod said:

Being ACE does not exempt one from the TOS of this site, however I would hope that there was a good reason for suspending a member.

Also, I wanted to expand on this - no, being ace doesn't exempt folks from the ToS. But it ought to make ace folks of all sorts of belief systems and political leanings and whatnot feel comfortable, and I wonder sometimes at how successfully that is happening.

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I will say, also agree with this:

 

24 minutes ago, Polygon said:

A person being asexual doesn't exempt them from an asexual site's rules, though - like, an American breaking American laws is not given special consideration because they're American.

Someone's sexuality should play no role in whether they're allowed to be here or not or how they're disciplined. Asexuals who behave like complete assholes should be kicked out. But of course this doesn't sound like that at all, this sounds like overbearing PC-ness.

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TheAP

If people are allowed to post things invalidating trans people, AVEN won't be a place for the entire asexual community. Trans people, or whoever is invalidated, will be hurt and will be driven away. And before you say they should just get over it because it's just feelings, trans people may deal with having their identities attacked all the time. It can get exhausting to hear the same things said over and over again and having to keep arguing against it. The majority of trans people see female and male as referring to their gender identities. If we want AVEN to be welcoming to all, we can't allow people judging others for who they are and treating their identities as a debate. People's varying beliefs and opinions should be respected, but not at the cost of other people.

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4 minutes ago, Polygon said:

"AVEN Bureau of Investigation, what is your emergency?"

 

"There's a user that won't cower in fear as I spit fire, roar, and fly away into the sunset"

 

"They didn't even flinch?"

 

"No!"

 

"We can see this is serious. We're on our way."

This sounds like a completely plausible scenario, tbh. :lol: 

Edited by Ceebs.
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Just Dani

Sorry to hear about @Evil being suspended. :(

 

11 minutes ago, Chimeric said:

For whatever it's worth, some of us have a deep appreciation for blunt conversation. x)

 

There go my hopes and dreams of dragons ever being real, thanks a lot.

I'm personally a fan of blunt conversation, but I can be pretty blunt myself, tho. <_<

 

Hey, nothing wrong with holding onto those hopes and dreams! Maybe they exist somewhere out there! 😆

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Chimeric
12 minutes ago, TheAP said:

The majority of trans people see female and male as referring to their gender identities.

But female and male aren't gender identities.

 

This is the problem.

 

Male and female are sex categories. This is fact. If someone views this simple fact as an attempt to invalidate them (which it isn't, because trans people are either male or female and are still trans), at some point somebody somewhere has to say "No, this is just  how it is. We aren't going to issue a warning because you feel invalidated by something that is real."

 

Edit cus apparently I wasn't done thinking about this yet -

 

And I think this is part of where the conversation gets cloudy. We can insist on biological reality while still maintaining that trans people are real, and have real struggles.  But the second someone mentions the fact that male and female are innate characteristics (which is just true), they're told that they're transphobic, that they've invalidating someone else's identity. I'm not when I say those things, and he isn't when he says them, but we're treated like bigots just the same. We aren't. Neither of us has said that trans people don't exist or aren't deserving of respect and attention and basic human rights.

Edited by Chimeric
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Skullery Maid

Ewww this post is gross. Sorry your friend got a warning but are you kidding me with this "card carrying member" bullshit? So if you're asexual it's cool to offend trans people? 

 

Also wtf is the deal with people being so melodramatic about a warning or temp suspension?

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TheAP

Female is also defined as "relating to or characteristic of women". As nouns, female and woman/girl mean the same thing. So those terms are linked.

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Chimeric
5 minutes ago, Skullery Maid said:

Sorry your friend got a warning but are you kidding me with this "card carrying member" bullshit?

Nope. I'm sure I made it clear in my original post why I brought that up to begin with - that AVEN Is meant to be a place for asexual people regardless of intersectionality. That's why I mentioned that, not because I think he deserves more leniency, but because he deserves the same. And "the same" should include not having to worry about getting warned for reiterating fact.

 

5 minutes ago, Skullery Maid said:

So if you're asexual it's cool to offend trans people?  

It isn't "cool" to offend anybody.

 

People may have been offended by things he was saying, but he wasn't saying them to be hateful or offensive. He was saying them because they're true, and they fit in the context of the conversation.

 

8 minutes ago, Skullery Maid said:

Also wtf is the deal with people being so melodramatic about a warning or temp suspension?

I don't think I've ever been called melodramatic about anything before, unsure if I should thank you or not.

 

These are fora, we do voice opinions here - and I've got many of them. They happen to revolve around the people and the things I care about the most.

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So what words does one use when discussing actual biological sexes then? Do we need more new words so all the Tumblrgender people don't throw a fit?

 

Edit: re: the "female" comment above.

Edited by Ceebs.

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Skullery Maid

@Chimeric I'm sorry. I'm in a bad mood for other reasons. 

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Chimeric
6 minutes ago, TheAP said:

Female is also defined as "relating to or characteristic of women". As nouns, female and woman/girl mean the same thing. So those terms are linked.

Yes, female and woman/girl mean the same thing. Because in Western society right now, the accepted definition of a woman is an adult human female. As I mentioned, there are some communities that are pushing to change the definition of woman to include both sexes, but that isn't the broadly accepted definition currently.

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TheAP

^^^AMAB and AFAB? Using the terms biologically male/female isn't against the rules in itself, though. It depends on intent.

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