A. Sterling Posted January 25, 2019 Author Share Posted January 25, 2019 1 hour ago, uhtred said: An interesting side question is what "science" would mean in Eden. It seems to have been a very artificial place - isolated from normal biology, evolution, and probably meteorology. It was sort of like a little slice of heaven reserved for two humans - and with those artificial rules, its not clear what science means. Another question is what Adam and Eve *did* in Eden? How did they spend their time? What was there to talk about or think about? For a modern human I think Eden would be a prison - but of course modern humans have lost the innocence that made Eden desirable for Adam and Eve. Well again it depends on how you interpret it. There's no real rule that says how anything was made by God so Eden could have all the natural laws and evolution and all that behind it. (I mean the 7 days thing doesn't mean anything before time is created honestly.) And it is an allegory right Adam means man and Eve means woman so it could just be a summary of all men and women of a philosophical time of human moral purity. (For the record, I also don't buy in to the innocence equals ignorance and vice versa thing. And I think that's entirely separate from doing good and evil things as well, I mean kids can be little jerks from the beginning.) Honestly, I think Eden is meant to refer to a theoretical time before humans messed stuff up on Earth (so when all natural processes were functioning properly, i.e. before the Anthropocene). Because things are more metaphorical than literal there wouldn't even be a reason to bother with theories of scientific processes which would be outdated anyway. I think when you talk about it being an artificial place it just wasn't really the point to be factual like a literal history, that wasn't how histories were told back then, and it wasn't a scientific document it was more of a scholarly philosophical theology, which would be very abstract. Also the fact that the order of the creations are presented in two different ways kinda suggests that the writers weren't very concerned with the actual order that the things happened. The central themes seems to be that humanity was created in the image of God (from the first story), God created all of existence, God provided for humanity and was close to humanity in a heaven-on-earth type of place, humans messed up somehow, that mistake broke the presumed original natural order and distanced humanity from God. It is possible that they don't specify what Adam and Eve did on purpose, because they could have done anything. There is nothing that says they just sat around in ignorance though so I don't think it is meant to be interpreted in any way as a prison (I often find myself thinking of classic images of heaven in a similar way). Although it does say that God placed man in the garden (like an untainted earth) to work the land and care for it (and the animals also I think). So Adam and Eve did have a job (yeah Eve was to help Adam and whatnot in that version but it's still the same job), to take care of the earth, like a gardener or landscaper or environmentalist or biologist or zoologist. And there is that one liner about how Eve ate the fruit because she "saw it was desirable for gaining wisdom" which suggests high functions reason and logic and trying to gain wisdom is not really considered a bad thing in the text overall. Man, I really do get frustrated with this story in particular because I find myself wondering if the Bible even really thinks that eating the fruit was the wrong move. I mean it's repeated all the time that that introduced sin to the world and all but there isn't really ever an attempt to go back to the world before. Like there's no anti-clothes movement or anything, and mean they're said to wear clothes in heaven too, just saying, so even heaven isn't like Eden. *sigh* I need to take this one problem at a time. Link to post Share on other sites
Dreamsexual Posted January 25, 2019 Share Posted January 25, 2019 On 1/25/2019 at 8:21 AM, A. Sterling said: Man, I really do get frustrated with this story in particular . Link to post Share on other sites
A. Sterling Posted January 25, 2019 Author Share Posted January 25, 2019 Just now, Dreamsexual said: It's a fantastic story full of multi-layered meanings and polyvalent symbols (unsurprising given it's messy origin and subsequent use). It's mysterious and vague, and profound and resonant. Good stuff, imho Why be frustrated over it? Don't get me wrong, I love it, I used to read it over and over as a kid (I'm weird) but I sometimes I want to be able to figure it out and there's just no single answer. The thing that frustrates me is that I can't convince most people that it's okay for anything to have more than one answer at a time. (I have this thing about thinking the universe (and human thought/emotion particularly) is paradoxical by nature.) Link to post Share on other sites
Dreamsexual Posted January 25, 2019 Share Posted January 25, 2019 On 1/25/2019 at 8:28 AM, A. Sterling said: there's just no single answer . Link to post Share on other sites
uhtred Posted January 25, 2019 Share Posted January 25, 2019 9 hours ago, Dreamsexual said: That might well be true, but science as we understand it didn't really begin until then, I think. This lecture might highlight how complex this topic is (and maybe make a case for Christianity having a role to play in the development of science) (note, I haven't watched it all myself, yet, it's what I found on a quick search,lol - I got most my info from the Faraday Institute): There are somewhat fuzzy definitions of what constitutes science. The Ancient Greeks and to some extent Egypt in late antiquity did science - things like measuring the circumference of the earth. They Maya, and others did careful astronomical observations, but didn't have the math to fit them into any sort of physical model. The Arabs had very detailed observational astronomy and did a lot of work that qualified as science, even if it didn't quite fit the modern model. I feel like Galileo is roughly the start of modern science, but he was opposed by the church, though in the waning days of the Church's absolute control. (and my apologies, but I never watch online videos (other than kittens of course))) Link to post Share on other sites
uhtred Posted January 25, 2019 Share Posted January 25, 2019 Things can get very confusing when you include allegorical interpretations of the Bible. It can have deep meaning: Adam and Eve representing the happiness of innocence (ignorance?) being like animals in not knowing about their own morality, and not fearing it. Being free of internal conflict and stress because they didn't have to concern themselves with difficult problems of right and wrong. OTOH, when you move away from a literal interpretation of the bible, it can easily become just a mirror, reflecting your own thoughts and beliefs. Like a mirror, if your thoughts are beautiful, it will be as well, but as has happened in the past, ugly thoughts are also reflected. The bible has inspired great good, but also horrible evil. Its also possible to interpret the bible as reflecting the thoughts / culture of when it was written, as opposed to the thoughts of a presumably unchanging God. Again though once people start picking and choosing what parts to believe, they really are just using the bible to *justify* their beliefs, rather than to guide those beliefs. Link to post Share on other sites
Dreamsexual Posted January 25, 2019 Share Posted January 25, 2019 On 1/25/2019 at 3:41 PM, uhtred said: but he was opposed by the church . Link to post Share on other sites
Dreamsexual Posted January 25, 2019 Share Posted January 25, 2019 . Link to post Share on other sites
starweb Posted January 25, 2019 Share Posted January 25, 2019 17 hours ago, uhtred said: I didn't know that interpretation. If got promised that the child would be raised, the is a different (though still interesting) situation. A little surprising in that case he didn't let Abraham go through with it. Does God raise anyone from the dead in the bible, or is it only Jesus? There are stories in the New Testament, such as Jarius' daughter and a young man who was the only child of a widow and of course, Lazarus. In the OT there was the story of someone one of the prophets brought back, I think it was Elijah but not sure. 17 hours ago, Sally said: The Catholic Church suppressed the development of science until approximately 400 years ago. Early-middle Islam played the main role in scientific exploration. Islam should get more credit than it does. The Catholic Church has taught evolution in Catholic Schools for years and I'm sure we all know about Father Lemaître, the Catholic Priest who was one of the theorists of the Big Bang . They've come a long way since Galileo. Link to post Share on other sites
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The Forensic Girl Posted January 26, 2019 Share Posted January 26, 2019 My impression has been changing the last few months due to my certain set of circumstances. There is a church that I like to go to, but I don't ever intend to believe in some higher power. Before I met some of the people from this church, I was extremely cautious because I have at times ended up in conversations (is it a conversation if I am being talked at) for hours at a time when I had other things that really needed my attention, pretty much being told "You're going to hell if you don't believe in Jesus" and just having scripture after scripture talked at. And other times when someone finds out that I am atheist, they start talking behind my back and saying things like "Oh, that white girl with the glasses, The Forensic Girl, has been talking to your son lately. She's the reason why your son does not believe in God. She's influencing him" and people give me dirty looks. I've also been accused of using black magic recently, too. "This door keeps opening! It must be The Forensic Girl using black to summon demons and evil spirits because she doesn't believe in God" I've also met some of the nicest people who are Christians. I've had a lot of help from the church I like to waddle to and they are very nice and just want to help. Like the church would make sure I had some clothes, food, etc. While I was homeless. They invite me to things even though I don't believe in God. They don't care about that. They just want to help and make sure I'm alright. I'm still cautious based on my experiences, but less so as more and more people become aware of my presence and what I believe and leave me alone about it. And pretty much, some people judge me for not believing and some people don't care and still want me around. It's not necessarly Christianity itself, as it is with individuals. I try to judge on an individual case, due to people being so unique and individual that if I were to judge based on more general characteristics, I would miss some opportunities that I wouldn't have missed if I judge on a case-by-case. Link to post Share on other sites
Sally Posted January 26, 2019 Share Posted January 26, 2019 On 1/24/2019 at 10:24 PM, uhtred said: An interesting side question is what "science" would mean in Eden. It seems to have been a very artificial place - isolated from normal biology, evolution, and probably meteorology. It was sort of like a little slice of heaven reserved for two humans - and with those artificial rules, its not clear what science means. Another question is what Adam and Eve *did* in Eden? How did they spend their time? What was there to talk about or think about? For a modern human I think Eden would be a prison - but of course modern humans have lost the innocence that made Eden desirable for Adam and Eve. The two Genesis stories were a handy little description of how the early Hebrews thought the world began, and as such there's no logical way to determine anything about eden. The Hebrew word "eden" means "pleasure." Link to post Share on other sites
Dreamsexual Posted January 26, 2019 Share Posted January 26, 2019 On 1/26/2019 at 10:54 PM, Sally said: how the early Hebrews thought the world began . Link to post Share on other sites
SorryNotSorry Posted January 27, 2019 Share Posted January 27, 2019 Impotent, stolen magic. Link to post Share on other sites
The Dryad Posted January 27, 2019 Share Posted January 27, 2019 My understanding of "Christianity" as we know it is absolute bs, not that I'm not a believer, I am, but most of what we know is stolen bs, lies, manipulation, and complete and convenient denial of supernatural dealings....even though God is supernatural, based on a legacy of people who converted to a religion they killed people over, changed the image to look like them, and conquered the world for that false image... Truly terrifying stuff, especially if you read their punishment in the book of Enoch, convenient how that was removed from the Bible. Link to post Share on other sites
A. Sterling Posted January 27, 2019 Author Share Posted January 27, 2019 Just now, The Dryad said: My understanding of "Christianity" as we know it is absolute bs, not that I'm not a believer, I am, but most of what we know is stolen bs, lies, manipulation, and complete and convenient denial of supernatural dealings....even though God is supernatural, based on a legacy of people who covered to a religion they killed people over, changed the image to look like them, and conquered the world for that false image. Very interesting take. As a believer who doesn't believe the histories that are left how do you construct your believes. (What do you take to be true about God and what is not?) Link to post Share on other sites
SorryNotSorry Posted January 27, 2019 Share Posted January 27, 2019 Meh... to me it's the "I am GOD, be my little pogey or I'll ram lightning up your butt" BS. And the mystical/prophetic visions stuff, which sound like the rantings of someone tripping on tainted LSD. Link to post Share on other sites
The Dryad Posted January 27, 2019 Share Posted January 27, 2019 Just now, A. Sterling said: Very interesting take. As a believer who doesn't believe the histories that are left how do you construct your believes. (What do you take to be true about God and what is not?) My perspective might be more different than most, I might get into it one day, but I believe most in the Essene/Nazarene Bible, plus the books and scrolls most people ignore, because I think there's much more truth to them (the Gospel of Thomas, the book of Enoch is one of the most important, etc. There are so many) I believe in most things the Bible says.... between the subliminal messages different translations give you (but that's a story for another day) It's not exactly that I don't believe in what the Bible says either, it's that I don't believe the Church- it's sketchy. Especially when talking about the children of the watchers/Nephilim and their descendents, holy **** that's creepy. Link to post Share on other sites
uhtred Posted January 27, 2019 Share Posted January 27, 2019 One interesting (at least to me) issue is that until very recently humans had absolutely no idea how vast the universe is. To early Christians, the world was measured in days journey by boat or horse. Maybe a few knew the size of the earth from the measurements by Eratosthenes, and that must have seemed really big. Still they could imagine God having created it and sent his only son to the earth. Now we know that planets are as common as grains of sand in the Sahara, so the idea that god created ALL of that - presumably 14 billion years ago, and then in an eyblink of cosmological time, decided to send his only son ... *here*. .Not to one of the thousand billion billion other planets. It is one of my greatest problems with Abrahamic religions: for God to have created the Universe he is just too... well vast for me to interact with . Link to post Share on other sites
Sally Posted January 27, 2019 Share Posted January 27, 2019 6 hours ago, Dreamsexual said: In other words it might be not so much as cosmogony but a tribal origin myth. Of course it is, the Hebrew origin myth. Other tribes have their own origin myths. Link to post Share on other sites
Dreamsexual Posted January 28, 2019 Share Posted January 28, 2019 . Link to post Share on other sites
uhtred Posted January 28, 2019 Share Posted January 28, 2019 7 hours ago, Dreamsexual said: OK, different related topic: What do people see as the big reason lying behind so many different varieties of Christianity? Is it cultural difference, historical difference, philosophical differences, etc. For me, I think the biggest single root cause of variation is bibliology/hermeneutic theory - ie how they interpret the bible. Most arguments and differences in behaviour/belief can be traced back to this, I think. Thoughts? Could just be simple politics. The Christian religion is very large and at some times in history very powerful. There are lots of non-religious reasons for people to want to grab control of part of that power. Link to post Share on other sites
Dreamsexual Posted January 28, 2019 Share Posted January 28, 2019 On 1/28/2019 at 4:05 PM, uhtred said: Could just be simple politics. . Link to post Share on other sites
uhtred Posted January 28, 2019 Share Posted January 28, 2019 1 hour ago, Dreamsexual said: Certainly an aspect, no doubt. But it seems to me that the ultimate root of most internal disagreements is interpretative. Politics, power, personality, language and culture just seem complicating factors in addition to the core problem, IMHO. Its not easy to tell which aspect is driving. It may also be different for different splits in the church. Link to post Share on other sites
A. Sterling Posted January 28, 2019 Author Share Posted January 28, 2019 8 hours ago, Dreamsexual said: OK, different related topic: What do people see as the big reason lying behind so many different varieties of Christianity? Is it cultural difference, historical difference, philosophical differences, etc. For me, I think the biggest single root cause of variation is bibliology/hermeneutic theory - ie how they interpret the bible. Most arguments and differences in behaviour/belief can be traced back to this, I think. Thoughts? From my understanding Christian groups have always argued about how to think about biblical teachings. I mean, Paul and some of Jesus' disciples argued about whether Jewish food limitations should be upheld and whether Christians should also be circumcised. During Jesus' time their were two main classes of Jewish belief; one thought there was life after death (resurrection) and one didn't. It seems built in to the history for Christians to disagree on how they practice and what they believe. The irony is that they separated over their differences because Jesus called for a unified people. Oh well. I do think it's mostly because of interpretation but I don't think the bible expressly has an issue with people having different interpretations, just with them fighting over being right. Link to post Share on other sites
Dreamsexual Posted January 28, 2019 Share Posted January 28, 2019 On 1/28/2019 at 5:33 PM, A. Sterling said: Christian groups have always argued about how to think about biblical teachings. . Link to post Share on other sites
The Dryad Posted January 28, 2019 Share Posted January 28, 2019 On 1/27/2019 at 12:20 AM, uhtred said: One interesting (at least to me) issue is that until very recently humans had absolutely no idea how vast the universe is. To early Christians, the world was measured in days journey by boat or horse. Maybe a few knew the size of the earth from the measurements by Eratosthenes, and that must have seemed really big. Still they could imagine God having created it and sent his only son to the earth. Now we know that planets are as common as grains of sand in the Sahara, so the idea that god created ALL of that - presumably 14 billion years ago, and then in an eyblink of cosmological time, decided to send his only son ... *here*. .Not to one of the thousand billion billion other planets. It is one of my greatest problems with Abrahamic religions: for God to have created the Universe he is just too... well vast for me to interact with . Hmm...I don't think this is necessarily true, and it feels like an oversimplification, for example the oldest civilizations in the world-class Egypt, Ethiopia, Mesopotamia, Aztecs, Incans, The Mali Empire, etc. had a vast amount of knowledge available to them, especially Mali (considering the University/Mosque of Djenne), Egypt and Ethiopia. Especially with reading stars, "magic"/science, etc. I'm mentioning these parts of the world because Christianity was born in Nile Valley and "middle eastern" culture. You can find the beginnings of Abrahamic religion in Egypt and the middle East (because the middle East was originally an extension of North Africa). Another thing to think about is people counted time much differently than we currently do- look at the differences between the Gregorian calendar vs. the Aztec calendar vs. the Egyptian calendar vs. the Enoch calendar. So to an ancient person, the perspective probably would have made more sense than it does now. Link to post Share on other sites
The Dryad Posted January 28, 2019 Share Posted January 28, 2019 12 hours ago, Dreamsexual said: OK, different related topic: What do people see as the big reason lying behind so many different varieties of Christianity? Is it cultural difference, historical difference, philosophical differences, etc. For me, I think the biggest single root cause of variation is bibliology/hermeneutic theory - ie how they interpret the bible. Most arguments and differences in behaviour/belief can be traced back to this, I think. Thoughts? Personally, there are a lot of different groups of people who claim the Abrahamic God as theirs, and that they are "original" and the "chosen people", and.... they're not exactly wrong, in some way, all of these groups are correct, even though religion is deeply rooted in politics, a lot of it is cultural and basic common sense/science mixed with legends. ***Like....what do Noah and Genghis Khan have in common? Noah is just an albino black man (blonde hair, white skin, colorful eyes) born to black parents who were terrified because he looked like the Nephilim, the children of fallen angels/watchers (note: which definitely puts a new light on "England" Land of "Angles", Anglo-Saxons...)like Genghis Khan legends states that his birth was strange- "a spirit came on to his mother" or something like that, idk, fact is stranger than fiction, I've been reading the book of Enoch and its freaked me out. The Christian Bible states to be wary of strangers because some have entertained angels (the fallen). So freaky. Link to post Share on other sites
Dreamsexual Posted January 28, 2019 Share Posted January 28, 2019 On 1/28/2019 at 8:32 PM, The Dryad said: there are a lot of different groups of people who claim the Abrahamic God as theirs, . Link to post Share on other sites
Homer Posted January 28, 2019 Share Posted January 28, 2019 I view it as a cult, just like I view any other religion. Link to post Share on other sites
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