Your Understanding of Christianity?

[Guest Jetsun Milarepa]

I think the title off the thread speaks directly to me. What do I understand of Christianity? 

Probably zero. Total mystery to me particularly in light of all the above.

[Sally]

7 minutes ago, chandrakirti said:

I think the title off the thread speaks directly to me. What do I understand of Christianity? 

Probably zero. Total mystery to me particularly in light of all the above.

Admittedly speaking as a non-Christian, I doubt if all those preceding pages explain what most Christians consider to be Christianity.  

[Dreamsexual]

On ‎2‎/‎8‎/‎2019 at 8:16 AM, Sally said:

Judaism is Jews, just as Christianity is Christians, and Islam is Muslims.  A religion without its people is just a name

 

[Guest Jetsun Milarepa]

5 hours ago, Sally said:

Admittedly speaking as a non-Christian, I doubt if all those preceding pages explain what most Christians consider to be Christianity.  

...or anything that can be verified outside of an opinion.

[Dreamsexual]

On ‎2‎/‎8‎/‎2019 at 2:14 PM, chandrakirti said:

...or anything that can be verified outside of an opinion.

 

[Howard]

Sometimes I talk well of Christianity, other times I talk ill of it. I'm in a mood right now to talk ill of it. So Christianity is the belief that God made Adam and Eve in an Earthly paradise with one rule they broke because of a talking snake. Adam and Eve gets kicked out and nobody is allowed back in the Garden of Eden because of them. So comes Jesus who paid for our sins. That means you get to go to Heaven when you die. It sounds wonderful except I suspect that all those that told me that dead people I know are in a good place right now are charlatan. It was a nice gesture from Jesus, but I wonder what he thought it would get us.

[uhtred]

9 hours ago, Howard said:

Sometimes I talk well of Christianity, other times I talk ill of it. I'm in a mood right now to talk ill of it. So Christianity is the belief that God made Adam and Eve in an Earthly paradise with one rule they broke because of a talking snake. Adam and Eve gets kicked out and nobody is allowed back in the Garden of Eden because of them. So comes Jesus who paid for our sins. That means you get to go to Heaven when you die. It sounds wonderful except I suspect that all those that told me that dead people I know are in a good place right now are charlatan. It was a nice gesture from Jesus, but I wonder what he thought it would get us.

In talking about religion you need to decide what you believe.  If you only believe what can be measured, you are talking about science not religion.   

 

You can take religious texts as "true", but of course that can lead down some very unsettling paths.

 

You can take the interpretations of those texts by particular sects, but then you have to decide why to believe one sect and not another.

 

You can take a probabilistic view and accept different things as true with different probabilities

 

 

[Howard]

3 hours ago, uhtred said:

n talking about religion you need to decide what you believe.  If you only believe what can be measured, you are talking about science not religion.   

Why couldn't I decide to choose to base my beliefs on my own personal experience and observation? If not, I may as well believe in unicorns because, just like the bible, there's been books written on them. But more specificaly, my biggest complain about christianity is that they claim that we have been forgiven our sins yet there is no evidence of that in our daily lives.

I still wouldn't classify the whole of the bible as useless. There are several moral stories, when taken into context, are still true today. I'm not talking about stoning homosexuals and polyamorous people. An eye for an eye makes sense considering I would like to poke both eyes of someone who poked one of my eyes. Loving your neighbour as you love yourself is a good guideline of conduct when you don't know how the other person wants to be treated.

To sum up what I think, the empirical method is superior and necessary to gather facts in order to decide what to believe. The words 'I feel' and 'I think' are equaly important before uttering out 'I believe'. That the death and resurection of Christ was metaphoricaly true, I want to believe for multiple reasons, but there is nothing to point out, outside the picture and in our common existence,  that it was literal.

[Evren]

Christianity and I do not get along at all. I grew up in the church as a preachers kid and most of the interactions I had with Christians as a child were abusive and horrible. They had expectations of me that were ridiculous, I was expected to be a perfect little person because I was the preachers kid. We had no privacy, they would just walk into our house any time they wanted too. There were many times they yelled at both my parents and I for doing something they thought was wrong, like talking about Disney World in church or not inviting every church member to my birthday parties. I wasn't supposed to be angry, have boundaries, or believe anything that went against the church. LGBT+ people were subhuman, and in order to get into heaven you had to be perfect. They told my mother that she should stay with my abusive father, and that it would be better if she went back to him and killed herself then to get a divorce.

 

Since then, I have known exactly one Christian that was a good and decent person, loved people and God and didn't judge people. He didn't actually go to church most Sundays, and he rarely talked to other Christians. 

 

I am unsure on whether or not I believe in God or an ultimate power, but I will never go back to the church and find it very hard to trust people when they are christian. 

[uhtred]

On 2/21/2019 at 1:54 AM, Howard said:

Why couldn't I decide to choose to base my beliefs on my own personal experience and observation? If not, I may as well believe in unicorns because, just like the bible, there's been books written on them. But more specificaly, my biggest complain about christianity is that they claim that we have been forgiven our sins yet there is no evidence of that in our daily lives.

I still wouldn't classify the whole of the bible as useless. There are several moral stories, when taken into context, are still true today. I'm not talking about stoning homosexuals and polyamorous people. An eye for an eye makes sense considering I would like to poke both eyes of someone who poked one of my eyes. Loving your neighbour as you love yourself is a good guideline of conduct when you don't know how the other person wants to be treated.

To sum up what I think, the empirical method is superior and necessary to gather facts in order to decide what to believe. The words 'I feel' and 'I think' are equaly important before uttering out 'I believe'. That the death and resurection of Christ was metaphoricaly true, I want to believe for multiple reasons, but there is nothing to point out, outside the picture and in our common existence,  that it was literal.

Maybe its a matter of terminology.  Is it a "belief" is it is something you know to be true from direct observation?    

 

 

[A. Sterling]

2 hours ago, Evren said:

Christianity and I do not get along at all. I grew up in the church as a preachers kid and most of the interactions I had with Christians as a child were abusive and horrible. They had expectations of me that were ridiculous, I was expected to be a perfect little person because I was the preachers kid. We had no privacy, they would just walk into our house any time they wanted too. There were many times they yelled at both my parents and I for doing something they thought was wrong, like talking about Disney World in church or not inviting every church member to my birthday parties. I wasn't supposed to be angry, have boundaries, or believe anything that went against the church. LGBT+ people were subhuman, and in order to get into heaven you had to be perfect. They told my mother that she should stay with my abusive father, and that it would be better if she went back to him and killed herself then to get a divorce.

 

Since then, I have known exactly one Christian that was a good and decent person, loved people and God and didn't judge people. He didn't actually go to church most Sundays, and he rarely talked to other Christians. 

 

I am unsure on whether or not I believe in God or an ultimate power, but I will never go back to the church and find it very hard to trust people when they are christian. 

Man, I'm so sorry that happened. I wouldn't be a Christian either if that was my experience. In my case the Christian's I knew were the only understanding and kind people that I've known in an abusive household that scoffed at religion to a degree (though both of my parents are technically "Christian" my dad frequently says he doesn't believe in that stuff). I have always had an issue with the extraverted nature of Christianity though. That other stuff is very conservative Christianity, something I'd probably consider "old-world" thinking even though probably way too many people think that way. I'd never really been taught to think of any religion in terms of rules. I guess I was lucky in that way. 

[Evren]

2 minutes ago, A. Sterling said:

Man, I'm so sorry that happened. I wouldn't be a Christian either if that was my experience. In my case the Christian's I knew were the only understanding and kind people that I've known in an abusive household that scoffed at religion to a degree (though both of my parents are technically "Christian" my dad frequently says he doesn't believe in that stuff). I have always had an issue with the extraverted nature of Christianity though. That other stuff is very conservative Christianity, something I'd probably consider "old-world" thinking even though probably way too many people think that way. I'd never really been taught to think of any religion in terms of rules. I guess I was lucky in that way. 

Yeah, I know someone who was in a situation like that. He only got fed as a child because the church fed him, so he has a soft spot for Christians even though he doesn't believe. And I know that not all Christians are like that, ect. But it's like a visceral feeling when someone tells me they're a Christian, they have to try harder than someone else would to get me to trust them.

 

My father was the pastor, but he didn't really believe in the bible either, he would pick and choose which parts he liked. If the church had ever been on my side against him then I might be ok with them, but every christian I've ever met except the one irl all told me I was a horrible person to not talk to my abusive father and I should stay in touch with him so I can take care of him when he gets old. The ones I have met online have been much more reasonable, and Catholics for some reason are usually fine with it, and pretty nice. But the ones I met irl are usually the same as the ones I knew in childhood.

 

You were very lucky not to be taught about religion as rules, and if anyone ever tries to do so don't listen to them. Their all made up by people who just want power over you, very cult-like.

[Howard]

2 hours ago, uhtred said:

Maybe its a matter of terminology.  Is it a "belief" is it is something you know to be true from direct observation?    

Maybe not observation, but reasons to believe would need to be a bare minimum. I mean, looking at other people's comments, it does not even seem beneficial to believe in Christ for the sole advantage of maybe knowing Heavens when you die if it means having to put up with an abusive spouse. The bible says itself that you recognise the good tree by the fruits it bears and frankly, I don't see them in christianity.

[uhtred]

2 hours ago, Howard said:

Maybe not observation, but reasons to believe would need to be a bare minimum. I mean, looking at other people's comments, it does not even seem beneficial to believe in Christ for the sole advantage of maybe knowing Heavens when you die if it means having to put up with an abusive spouse. The bible says itself that you recognise the good tree by the fruits it bears and frankly, I don't see them in christianity.

A lot of evil is committed in the name of religion - with Christians and Muslims high on the list.   

 

Why does god allow it.   For answer I think one should re-read the Old Testament and how it portrays god. 

[Howard]

6 minutes ago, uhtred said:

For answer I think one should re-read the Old Testament and how it portrays god. 

I think you are alluding to the fall of man. Like I mentionned earlier, I have 2 big problems with it : why is everyone afftected while only 2 people, under the influence of a talking snake, broke the commandment? If Christ did die for our sins, where are the signs of our atonement?

[uhtred]

On 2/22/2019 at 1:16 PM, Howard said:

I think you are alluding to the fall of man. Like I mentionned earlier, I have 2 big problems with it : why is everyone afftected while only 2 people, under the influence of a talking snake, broke the commandment? If Christ did die for our sins, where are the signs of our atonement?

No, I'm talking about the way God behaves in general, though you have hit on two interesting points.   I feel that there is an underlying theme to the story of Abraham, who was called on to be willing to sacrifice his child.  Of Job - who's children and wife were killed to test his faith.  Lot who offers his daughter to be raped by the crowd to protect an angel.  Exodus where God kills all the firstborn of Egypt to punish Pharaoh, after first hardening Pharaoh's heart. God who allowed his only child to be tortured to death on the cross.

 

 Step back from traditional assumptions and what does this say about God. 

[Sally]

7 hours ago, uhtred said:

No, I'm talking about the way God behaves in general, though you have hit on two interesting points.   I feel that there is an underlying theme to the story of Abraham, who was called on to be willing to sacrifice his child.  Of Job - who's children and wife were killed to test his faith.  Lot who offers his daughter to be raped by the crowd to protect an angel.  Exodus where God kills all the firstborn of Egypt to punish Pharaoh, after first hardening Pharaoh's heart. God who allowed his only child to be tortured to death on the cross.

 

 Step back from traditional assumptions and what does this say about God. 

Since God didn't write the Torah, I don't think it says anything about God.  

[user23974865]

On 1/24/2019 at 2:24 AM, A. Sterling said:

So, an open ended question. I was just curious about people's interpretations of Christianity or the impression they get from or about it in general, in practice, and in theory. (No right answer, no strings attached, just curious... I find that people get suspicious about religion questions.) 

It's a mythological system, with its associated earthly hierarchies and with cultural/historical impact/legacy as inconsistent as the scripture itself.

 

There are cultures and peoples that are historically and demographically associated with it, but I think it would be misleading to assume that those cultures and peoples exist under Christianity or as part of it, and it's more like the other way around.

 

So, "a mythological system" it is.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLVvKB6u3Wc&t=1m41s

[Howard]

8 hours ago, uhtred said:

 

 Step back from traditional assumptions and what does this say about God. 

Ok, so re-reading what you wrote on this forum thread and taking into account the examples of tests of faith that God put the Israelites through, my opinion of christianity diminishes. Let's take a milder example and compare it to me having a girlfriend. Let's pursue this thought experiment by saying that I decided to put our love to the test. Not by killing anyone, just insulting her parents when we meet, flirting with her friends and joyriding with her car. All that to put our relationship to the test. Would she be sane to want to pursue a relationship with me? Let's instead of offering her Heavens, I have lots of money and offer her a quarter million dollars, wouldn't her love for me be superficial if she chose to stick with me?

[Traveler40]

My children attend a private Christian school for a variety of reasons which do not include me being a bible thumper.  Over the past year, I’ve felt the indoctrination growing too intense and decided I needed to educate myself to either fight the tide or find a different school.  You can imagine my shock when my child thought I was making evolution up.  I merely asked him if the Bible states the earth is a few thousand years old, how then could he explain dinosaurs?  (He knows them to be millions of years old.)  So, if dinosaurs roamed this earth when they did, and half life science has proven this, then God didn’t write the Bible through man as it’s not based in fact as taught.  I can report that a seed of doubt goes a very long way in establishing perspective.

 

We went on to contemplate a God who could wipe out the world and the improbability of an Ark, the idea of various men living hundreds of years old while populating the world through sisters, the fact that there were two sets of 10 commandments, Job, Lot (modified as the actual story is beyond him), and the New Testament being written decades after the fact among other ideas presented through parables.  We also discussed how geography plays a role in which religion a person falls into.  My son found it hilarious that had he been born in China, he may well be a Buddhist!  There is so much more we’ve covered this year in the hopes of keeping his mind open and nimble.

 

Yes, Faith is belief in the absence of proof, but religion has nothing to do with that.  Religion is marketing and big business imho, while spirituality is free and personal.   My children learn many wonderful lessons at the school they attend, but it’s the levity at home that will round them out and (hopefully) form independent and broad thinkers in time.

[user23974865]

When I hear people talking about fundamentalist-type Christian communities / families / schools / etc., it makes me thankful that that's not something I ever knew in my own life. I went to a Catholic school from kindergarten until I was 14, but religion was more like "ambiance" and "a theme" rather than a major part of the actual content that was taught. I'm the opposite of religious, and I don't have a positive view of / relationship with religion in general, but that kind of school education is what I would want for my children if I ever had any.

 

My father went to priest school for several years before changing his mind, but, despite still going to church every week and reading the bible every day and being part of an active church group, he has no trouble accepting that parts of the Bible are practically copy-pasted from the epic of Gilgamesh. He'll say "It's just the way they told stories and got their point across back then, and it's silly to read it any other way." So I can and do talk about religion and cosmology and history and anthropology with him all the time, and he's fascinated by those things just as much as I am. He believes in God, I don't, and that's about it. Just a personal thing.

 

That's why I say that the legacy of Christianity is just as inconsistent as the Bible. Where I come from, "being religious" has a completely different meaning (and effect) than it does in some other predominantly-Christian places. And even the basic values associated with religion are completely different.

[Sally]

4 hours ago, Traveler40 said:

My children attend a private Christian school for a variety of reasons which do not include me being a bible thumper.  Over the past year, I’ve felt the indoctrination growing too intense and decided I needed to educate myself to either fight the tide or find a different school.  You can imagine my shock when my child thought I was making evolution up.  I merely asked him if the Bible states the earth is a few thousand years old, how then could he explain dinosaurs?  (He knows them to be millions of years old.)  So, if dinosaurs roamed this earth when they did, and half life science has proven this, then God didn’t write the Bible through man as it’s not based in fact as taught.  I can report that a seed of doubt goes a very long way in establishing perspective.

 

We went on to contemplate a God who could wipe out the world and the improbability of an Ark, the idea of various men living hundreds of years old while populating the world through sisters, the fact that there were two sets of 10 commandments, Job, Lot (modified as the actual story is beyond him), and the New Testament being wrtten decades after the fact among other ideas presented through parables.  We also discussed how geography plays a role in which religion a person falls into.  My son found it hilarious that had he been born in China, he may well be a Buddhist!  There is so much more we’ve covered this year in the hopes of keeping his mind open and nimble.

 

Yes, Faith is belief in the absence of proof, but religion has nothing to do with that.  Religion is marketing and big business imho, while spirituality is free and personal.   My children learn many wonderful lessons at the school they attend, but it’s the levity at home that will round them out and (hopefully) form independent and broad thinkers in time.

I'm curious why you send your children to that private Christian schools (and pay for  it, I assume) when it obviously teaches your children a variety of  Christianity/religion that you yourself think is -- to not  put a fine point on it -- BS.  As you mention, there are other schools they could attend.

[Traveler40]

It’s an excellent school academically. Additionally, the character building, community in general, facility and student support is unparalleled in our area.  The religious angle was something we felt we could bring levity to, but should have started earlier.

 

I went to private parochial schools my entire life and understand the pros and cons well.  The benefits far outweigh the problems even at a more foundational school.  We need to keep supplemental guidance going to round out and fill in where necessary.

[uhtred]

On 2/24/2019 at 10:17 PM, Sally said:

Since God didn't write the Torah, I don't think it says anything about God.  

But then how do we know what God is like?  If the bible doesn't represent God, what does? 

[uhtred]

On 2/24/2019 at 11:43 PM, Howard said:

Ok, so re-reading what you wrote on this forum thread and taking into account the examples of tests of faith that God put the Israelites through, my opinion of christianity diminishes. Let's take a milder example and compare it to me having a girlfriend. Let's pursue this thought experiment by saying that I decided to put our love to the test. Not by killing anyone, just insulting her parents when we meet, flirting with her friends and joyriding with her car. All that to put our relationship to the test. Would she be sane to want to pursue a relationship with me? Let's instead of offering her Heavens, I have lots of money and offer her a quarter million dollars, wouldn't her love for me be superficial if she chose to stick with me?

Yes.  Only here you would also be a crazy mass murderer who will kill her and her family and friends if she doesn't date you.....

 

To me the God of the old testament is deeply evil.  I understand people who worship him out of fear of the consequences of not doing so,  or possibly for personal gain in the afterlife. He is like a mob boss who insists on loyalty, giving out rewards and punishments as he sees fit.  I can imagine some guy in a suit and gold chains, surrounded by his goons, handing someone a gun and ordering them to shoot their own kid -  then laughing when the gun clicks empty.  "That's what I like - loyalty. Your're a good man Abraham". 

 

I understand why the angels revolted, I'm just sorry that they lost.  

 

[user23974865]

I just took the time to read through the entire thread, and, boy, have I learned a lot about obscure esoteric maps. The main lesson being: Wut?

 

---

 

Someone mentioned the idea of many people being "culturally Christian, but not religiously". That's pretty common, in my personal experience. Just like "secular Jews". I think Catholicism in my country has always been a lot more a matter of social habits and publicly visible behavior and tradition for the sake of tradition than a matter of belief. Kinda like a "don't ask don't tell policy". You can believe whatever you want, you can be gay or whatever, just keep it to yourself. If you don't, there might be consequences, but if you do, you're fine. Most people rarely go to church, and don't often pray or think about religion or Jesus or God or whatever (and that's been the case for quite a while), but most people will say that "they're Catholic" anyway.

 

The common idea of "what a religious person is" seems to be more about going to church regularly and helping organize church-related events (like, say, bingo to help raise funds for a yearly local church festival). It's pretty common for people to have their own goofy "extracurricular" beliefs, and I've met priests who honestly don't seem to care whether or not people believe in God. I think the general understanding (both within and outside the church) is that religion / the church is all about social activity, and that all the other details are secondary. Like it's meant to be a pretext for social gatherings and a shared understanding of what kinds of appearances should be kept up for the sake of superficial social cohesion. The widely prevalent idea that "the highly religious are nothing but big hypocrites" seems to have a long tradition (dating back to at least as early as the mid 1800's, but probably much earlier, and, remarkably, being prevalent in all social classes).

 

So (here, at least) Catholicism is effectively more of a cultural thing than really a religious thing. Though I'm not sure if that's more of a cause or more of a consequence of the recurring theme of "theory and practice being largely independent", which is so pervasive and ingrained in the culture of the country.

[user23974865]

On the other hand, there's the booming evangelical industry, which sells religion as a means for social mobility and protection from urban violence. "Come to church, get exorcised, work hard, stay sober, start a business, spread the word, work harder, and God will reward you -- as long as you keep paying Him back every month, in cash". Those are the people who will use the words Jesus, Christ, God, Lord or amen at least once every sentence, and who will ramble on about Jesus to strangers at a bus stop while people awkwardly nod along and think "for fucks sake, can't you see I have my headphones on?".

 

Evangelical churches have been slowly but steadily creeping their way into mass media and politics over the last few decades, and they're one of the reasons why it was even possible for us to be where we are now -- with a newly-elected neo-fascist president. He wouldn't have had enough support from the poor otherwise. Their followers are usually just annoying at worst, and, to their credit, they usually are hard-working. But, collectively, those churches are downright dangerous and scary. They don't just demand blind faith, they demand blind allegiance. And they're growing every day.

[Semiterrestrial Scientist]

I’m about 1/4 Christian. It’s weird to say it like that but it’s the best I can really describe it. I was raised as a Christian but I began to see the cracks and flaws in it. So right now I’m my own little religion that has bits and pieces from a couple religions and my own philosophy 

[SithLord]

On ‎1‎/‎24‎/‎2019 at 1:24 PM, A. Sterling said:

So, an open ended question. I was just curious about people's interpretations of Christianity or the impression they get from or about it in general, in practice, and in theory. (No right answer, no strings attached, just curious... I find that people get suspicious about religion questions.) 

Late to the party but willing to contribute:

I understand Christianity as a long lasting (still not the longest lasting, however) religion with religion being just modern and still active mythology. While there may be a deity out there, the closest thing to one I can think of would be a deistic god who has not touched their creation since the beginning and therefore has no purpose in being worshiped or even acknowledged much. The Christian Bible cannot be interpreted as absolute fact because of all the translations and interpretations leading to what we can currently call The Bible contradicting itself and other different translations and interpretations. 

[Guest Jetsun Milarepa]

Oh it's just one of the many religions that have come and gone. It just hasn't gone yet or been supplanted in its home base, like how it supplanted the Roman pagan religions.