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In need of some advice


J_G_M_

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8 hours ago, Telecaster68 said:

It isn't. But I've read a fair number of posts where asexuals perceive a tantrum is being had over a single 'no', when to the sexual, it's an outburst from feeling hurt and rejected consistently for weeks/months/years. The asexual just doesn't see the pattern, and they don't see a 'no' as rejection, any more than not wanting to see a particular film is a rejection. There are instances of this when it seems hard to swallow and it seems like there must be at least some denial going on, but that's what I've seen plenty of asexuals say is going on.

 

Also - OP's partner is autistic, so any ideas about what's going on in her head are going to have to be based on that, not on assumptions about how non-autistic people think.

There is a big difference in saying you are hurt and unfulfilled and throwing a tantrum. A tantrum implies being angry, lashing out, yelling, etc. Which, is never the right response. Example, I was with someone who would shut down at a no,yell at me, then completely ignore me and refuse to talk until I gave in and changed it to a yes. That is tantrum behavior. And it is childish and not at all a healthy way to communicate an issue. 

 

Saying how you feel, letting it be known its an issue, or being upset and hurt a few days is understanable if its consistent denial without explanation. 

 

Respectful way to communicate that vs throwing a tantrum and being angry because the person didnt open their legs for you. Because a tantrum is going to turn off most anyone, let alone someone who only has sex for your sake. 

 

Now can people misuse the term tantrum? Sure. Doesnt sound like it was in the post I referenced though. 

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9 hours ago, ryn2 said:

I can’t tell from the outtake I have but I agree that - from what I remember - she also talks about people experiencing a mix.

 

Contextual desire is more like what Ficto was describing about having to be in the right emotional place/headspace.

This is fascinating.  I just read an article about these "desire styles," as Nagoski describes them.  This sounds like a big part of the problem for us: My desire style is almost exclusively spontaneous, hers is almost exclusively contextual.  She absolutely has to be in the right emotional headspace -- relaxed, cared for, etc. -- or she experiences sexual repulsion.  If she's in the right headspace, she doesn't experience repulsion, though she doesn't always experience desire.  I am just really bad at getting her into that headspace, because my ADHD brain goes a mile a minute and feeling relaxed and comfortable is the last thing I want.

I wonder how much of this isn't about sexual/asexual at all, but just about me having the most common male desire style and her having the most common female desire style -- and my ADHD preventing me from bridging the gap.

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So, um, to get to the original poster @J_G_M_ and their situation and questions...
 

 

On 1/22/2019 at 1:59 PM, J_G_M_ said:

For me, talking and thinking about sex during stressful parts of the day is a stress management solution, so my instinct is to make near-constant sexual comments to her, sexual overtures (physical and otherwise), etc.  However, she is completely repulsed by sex during much of the day, and needs me not to do that. So as not to make her uncomfortable, I've trained myself to keep my mouth shut about sex when she's sexually repulsed.  However, in order to do that, I have to essentially build a taboo in my mind around her, similar to the taboo a sexual person has, say, with their work colleagues at work (you may find them attractive, but you must never ever talk about it or allow it to color your interactions with that person; you think of them as off-limits).  Doing that leads me to not think of her in a sexual way, ever.  That might be fine if she were fully asexual.  But as a demisexual, occasionally she IS attracted to me sexually and wants to have sex with me...and then I've got this block that I have to overcome, every time, where I've taught myself not to feel sexual attraction to her so I don't make her uncomfortable.  So -- then we have sex, and it's amazing, and I feel attracted to her again!  But as soon as we're done, I have to build up the taboo all over again, so I don't make her feel uncomfortable the next day, or the day after that.

...

Have any other sexuals on this forum had this problem?  If so, how have you handled it?

 

On 1/22/2019 at 3:33 PM, xstatic said:

My s/o is sex repulsed so anytime I'm in a situation where I'm completely turned on next to him, I kinda make light of the situation.  I bury my head in a pillow and maybe let out a rawr.  Kick my legs a bit and am like "yeah, just hold on a sec.  Gotta get rid of my lady boner here." But you know.  Then I'm good.  If I'm playful about it, then he doesn't have to feel uncomfortable.  Like he's hurting me in some way.  And then I don't feel bad either.  But I'm not hypersexual.  Dealing with that has to be exhausting.

 

... my partner is not repulsed, but very indifferent. That is to say: he does have sex with me (or would, I'm on medical leave at the moment). But I have to ask in an open-ended, low pressure way, e.g. "I was wondering if we could do something in the next day or two if you're okay with it, maybe Saturday afternoon?" (The trick for us isn't the timeline, it's about avoiding pressure. He's actually once said "Okay now is good" 10 minutes after! Score!)

Like @xstatic I do talk about my desire. It's usually in the form of ridiculous flirting. "Wow, that new shirt looks good on you... dangerously good." And, if I'm going really over the top, "Actually, maybe it's awful, you should take it off right away." ;) I'll also move away if cuddling is getting arousing, and say "oops, I think I'm liking this a bit too much!", that sort of thing.

I'm given the freedom to express my sexuality while not actually engaging in sex. And he knows there is no expectation/request for actual "sex" in those expressions. (My actual sex requests are made explicitly, they aren't implied via flirtation.)

 

And I think this "verbalizing desire" gets at something important... I think in a successful compromise, each partner should feel respected and loved for the sexuality they have.

It makes me feel loved and respected that I'm able to express my sexuality, with these flirtations (and in some other ways), without feeling shame or guilt or a need to hide it. And I hope that my partner feels no shame or guilt or a need to be anything other than what he is -- I do my best to avoid any implication/expectation that he should experience attraction or desire or spontaneously agree to sex.

 

Between the two, we can joke with each other - and I think humor is a great way to assure each each other that we are comfortable with each other.

So I think I'd question whether it's a good idea for you to be suppressing your sexuality with the "keeping your mouth shut" thing. Inability to be open with your partner is not a great sign, IMHO. I'd wonder: is there a way you can express yourself and your attraction to her, without creating any pressure for sex, without making her uncomfortable?

 

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13 minutes ago, anisotropic said:

Like @xstatic I do talk about my desire. It's usually in the form of ridiculous flirting. "Wow, that new shirt looks good on you... dangerously good." And, if I'm going really over the top, "Actually, maybe it's awful, you should take it off right away." ;) I'll also move away if cuddling is getting arousing, and say "oops, I think I'm liking this a bit too much!", that sort of thing.

I'm given the freedom to express my sexuality while not actually engaging in sex. And he knows there is no expectation/request for actual "sex" in those expressions. (My actual sex requests are made explicitly, they aren't implied via flirtation.)

 

And I think this "verbalizing desire" gets at something important... I think in a successful compromise, each partner should feel respected and loved for the sexuality they have.

It makes me feel loved and respected that I'm able to express my sexuality, with these flirtations (and in some other ways), without feeling shame or guilt or a need to hide it. And I hope that my partner feels no shame or guilt or a need to be anything other than what he is -- I do my best to avoid any implication/expectation that he should experience attraction or desire or spontaneously agree to sex.

 

Between the two, we can joke with each other - and I think humor is a great way to assure each each other that we are comfortable with each other.

So I think I'd question whether it's a good idea for you to be suppressing your sexuality with the "keeping your mouth shut" thing. Inability to be open with your partner is not a great sign, IMHO. I'd wonder: is there a way you can express yourself and your attraction to her, without creating any pressure for sex, without making her uncomfortable?

This "ridiculous flirting" is exactly how I want to handle the situation.  However, it's exactly this that she cites as repulsing her.  When she's getting ready in the morning or at night, or when she's working, she is repulsed by my joking or talking about sex or flirting in any way.  She feels it's inappropriate and offensive when not in the context of a sexual encounter.  That's the main reason I feel I have to turn off my desire for her, because otherwise I can't help from making those comments.

There was a good example this morning.  We were talking about sterilizing a counter in our kitchen, and I said, with a giggle, "I'm glad YOU'RE not sterile..."  Her response was to tell me that she wouldn't mind me saying that in bed, but that she thought it was really sexist for me to say that outside of a sexual encounter, because women are continually shamed in our culture for not being able to bear children.  We had to have a long conversation where I tried to convince her that I hadn't meant to tap into societally-ingrained sexism, I was just making a sexy play on words.  I should add that we're both pretty woke and she doesn't generally think of me as a sexist person (and neither of us wants kids right now and she's on birth control), so this was pretty out of character.  She was just incapable of reading my sexy joking/flirtation as a joke; it was offensive and off-putting to her.

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Depends on her what works, tbh. My partner goes through periods of sexy is off limits... I leave the flirtiness out too, because I dont want to risk triggering something accidentally. But, we occasionally check in with how are you feeling ? When you are up to it, let me know, etc. Cause she does want me, but sometimes sexy times is just too much and she needs a week-fortnight-month whatever off from all of it. Complex reasons but we each have our own. 

 

I dont think you need to build a wall as much as consider it a sensitive topic... like you dont talk about dogs after a persons dog dies or whatever. More a temporary ok out of respect lets leave this here thing, than a taboo lets never thing. 

 

I mean it can get a little weird bouncing between dont look when shes changing, dont make comments on her tight clothes, dont touch so casually and all that and more being OK. But, its a thing some people need. Sometimes sex is just too much for whatever reason. 

 

As for her not getting jokes and being too literal.. that is the autism. You arent going to change the way her brain reads it. I work with ASD as my job and that sterile joke situation is something we are told to avoid like the plague, because they will take it at face value. 

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4 minutes ago, Serran said:

As for her not getting jokes and being too literal.. that is the autism. You arent going to change the way her brain reads it. I work with ASD as my job and that sterile joke situation is something we are told to avoid like the plague, because they will take it at face value. 

This is what's interesting: I agree it's the autism...but at the same time, we joke around in exactly that way about non-sexual things all the time and she never ever takes it amiss.  That basic form, "That thing is green...YOU'RE green," is a running joke format that we use every day.  She knows it's a joke every other time, but when it's about sex, then all of a sudden it's something you shouldn't joke about because it's offensive.  Before she said that, she correctly identified my intent, too.  She said, "I bet in your mind you saw me, thought I was hot, thought about sex, and made a sex joke.  But to me it's offensive, because..." etc.

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35 minutes ago, J_G_M_ said:

This is what's interesting: I agree it's the autism...but at the same time, we joke around in exactly that way about non-sexual things all the time and she never ever takes it amiss.  That basic form, "That thing is green...YOU'RE green," is a running joke format that we use every day.  She knows it's a joke every other time, but when it's about sex, then all of a sudden it's something you shouldn't joke about because it's offensive.  Before she said that, she correctly identified my intent, too.  She said, "I bet in your mind you saw me, thought I was hot, thought about sex, and made a sex joke.  But to me it's offensive, because..." etc.

It's probably just a sensitive topic for her.  My ex and I would banter like that all the time, but every once in a while one of us would take something that, via  our patterns,  was normally fine, but for whatever reason that particular joke was 'not cool'.  

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3 minutes ago, xstatic said:

It's probably just a sensitive topic for her.  My ex and I would banter like that all the time, but every once in a while one of us would take something that, via  our patterns,  was normally fine, but for whatever reason that particular joke was 'not cool'.  

Probably.  But she says every time I banter with her about sex, I say things that are "not cool."  She brought this one up as a representative example of our conversations of this type.  What I can't tell is whether my banter really is offensive, or whether she just thinks it's not cool because she's sexually repulsed at the time.

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49 minutes ago, Serran said:

s for her not getting jokes and being too literal.. that is the autism. You arent going to change the way her brain reads it. I work with ASD as my job and that sterile joke situation is something we are told to avoid like the plague, because they will take it at face value. 

It sounds to me like she does 'get' jokes, but finds certain sexual stuff really inappropriate outside of a sexual setting. Which I mean, that's not *that* uncommon. :o

 

1 hour ago, J_G_M_ said:

We were talking about sterilizing a counter in our kitchen, and I said, with a giggle, "I'm glad YOU'RE not sterile...

I'll be honest and say that while I'm known to make sexual jokes, that one would have hit the wrong cords with me too. I mean, I've even had two kids, but I've also been through things that could potentially have rendered me sterile, and it also would feel like the other person was suggesting that they feel I don't have worth outside of my ability to have kids. Sterility just isn't something I think is funny to joke about :o ..So while her reasoning may be different from mine, I can absolutely see why she didn't find that funny!

 

Actually, I realise now I get pretty pissed off the second any kind of sexual joke is made *about* me. If we are joking about sex in general that's cool, but as soon as it's actually about me, I get offended. For example someone I talk to privately tried to make a joke about my boobs with regards to cooking the other day and I just instantly shut down and haven't been able to respond to him since, and him and I have been talking for ages and often joke about sexual stuff!!

 

So yeah, I think it must just be a personality trait that some people have for whatever reason :o I don't think it necessarily has to have anything to do with autism (as some are suggesting).

 

But regardless of all that, I can see why it's an issue for you both :c

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29 minutes ago, J_G_M_ said:

This is what's interesting: I agree it's the autism...but at the same time, we joke around in exactly that way about non-sexual things all the time and she never ever takes it amiss.  That basic form, "That thing is green...YOU'RE green," is a running joke format that we use every day.  She knows it's a joke every other time, but when it's about sex, then all of a sudden it's something you shouldn't joke about because it's offensive.  Before she said that, she correctly identified my intent, too.  She said, "I bet in your mind you saw me, thought I was hot, thought about sex, and made a sex joke.  But to me it's offensive, because..." etc.

You get taught to untangle some of it growing up. So, a you are green thing could be a skill learned. But, translate it in an unexpected way to something she feels strongly about (sex being compartmentalized) and ... 

 

She probably rationally gets you mean nothing by it, but emotionally it triggers negatives. 

 

Predictability and rules are pretty important. It sounds like shes made the rule no sex talk outside of sex. If you want to change that, it would need to probably be in the form of lots of talking to figure out boundaries and details of whats OK and what isnt. So you both know whats expected behavior. 

 

And it may be she will never feel comfortable discussing sex or joking about it casually. But, it also sounds like you are struggling repressing your natural impulses to be casually sexual with her. So you two probably need to sit and have a long talk to try to find a middle ground level so neither of you is too far outside of comfort. 

 

My partner lets me know when her need time out from sexy stuff is over, so i know when flirtation stuff is back on. In turn I reassure its OK if shes not there yet occasionally, so she doesnt worry. Maybe you two could work out her comfort areas, when/why they change and try to communicate them clearly so you arent left feeling kind of like a huge on/off switch is needed ? 

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24 minutes ago, EasternMagic said:

Do you know what a shit test is?

Er.. unless you mean smelling a kids clothes to check if it's shit or chocolate on their pants then I have no idea :o

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12 minutes ago, (Pan) Ficto. (on hiatus?) said:

It sounds to me like she does 'get' jokes, but finds certain sexual stuff really inappropriate outside of a sexual setting. Which I mean, that's not *that* uncommon. :o

 

I'll be honest and say that while I'm known to make sexual jokes, that one would have hit the wrong cords with me too. I mean, I've even had two kids, but I've also been through things that could potentially have rendered me sterile, and it also would feel like the other person was suggesting that they feel I don't have worth outside of my ability to have kids. Sterility just isn't something I think is funny to joke about :o ..So while her reasoning may be different from mine, I can absolutely see why she didn't find that funny!

 

Actually, I realise now I get pretty pissed off the second any kind of sexual joke is made *about* me. If we are joking about sex in general that's cool, but as soon as it's actually about me, I get offended. For example someone I talk to privately tried to make a joke about my boobs with regards to cooking the other day and I just instantly shut down and haven't been able to respond to him since, and him and I have been talking for ages and often joke about sexual stuff!!

 

So yeah, I think it must just be a personality trait that some people have for whatever reason :o I don't think it necessarily has to have anything to do with autism (as some are suggesting).

 

But regardless of all that, I can see why it's an issue for you both :c

This makes sense.  And most of my flirtatious jokes follow a similar model: "I need a fork...I'd fork YOU..."  She doesn't appreciate that.  I admit it lacks subtlety.  But, since I learned a long time ago that she's not going to appreciate anything I say sexually outside of a sexual encounter, it kind of feels like subtlety is pointless.  There's a certain amount of despair that's gone into this, I'll admit.  I need to interact with her sexually somehow, some way.  Or I could shut that off forever, if she were completely asexual and wanted me to.  But because she desires me every month or so, I'm trying to stay sexually engaged with her the rest of the time.  If I can't proposition her, or touch her sexually, or even make jokes about sex, that puts me in the bind I started this thread with.  The only way not to make her uncomfortable is to shut off my attraction for her so completely that I never indicate to her that I'm thinking about sex with her -- the kind of taboo I'd develop for a work colleague I was attracted to, for instance.  But then, when she DOES want me, it's hard to want her back, because my attraction is still shut off.

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@J_G_M_ you've described a need to experience sexual attraction to your partner, and that you meet this need through making jokes. But it sounds like jokes about sex make her unhappy. The reaction you describe doesn't indicate that she's necessarily uncomfortable with your attraction per se.

 

One question: have you asked her directly about this? (ASD folks have told me that being direct is usually best.) In other words, something like... "I don't have any expectation of sex, but I feel a need to express my attraction to you more regularly. Is me being attracted to you upsetting, or is it the manner in which I express it?"

 

Within a woke paradigm, assuming you are cis-male, I think the whole joking-about-sex -- or even talking about your desire -- will play out very differently. Talking about sex may work better when it contravenes a standard paradigm of the male/masculine as sexual pursuer, and the female/feminine valued according to their desirability as sexual partners. Perhaps she is angered by the reminder your humor makes of the oppressive social roles that an accident of birth has cursed her with.

(I mean, that's how I might feel if I were woke. Which I'm not, because new babies wake up so damned often. Ugh. I knew what I was in for.)

There are probably other ways to express attraction. For example, vulnerable and apologetic. Personally I avoid it because I think it's more pressuring. On your end, the root of the problem isn't your jokes, it's the need to experience your desire somehow -- without stressing your partner.

My broad advice is to work through problems together, and don't expect them to solve themselves. (Through the power! of! love! haha... no.) Introspect, find potential explanations, potential ameliorations, discuss, test a new approach, see if it helps. Sometimes you try something that totally bombs. Observe that, try something else. I haven't navigated my partner's asexuality alone. Our happiness has been a team achievement.

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2 hours ago, J_G_M_ said:

This makes sense.  And most of my flirtatious jokes follow a similar model: "I need a fork...I'd fork YOU..."  She doesn't appreciate that.  I admit it lacks subtlety.  

If we're being honest, it sounds kind of like bullying. It sounds like you're angry, and you're not joking to stay connected in a loving and warm way, you're joking to make sure she knows you're frustrated. 

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21 hours ago, ryn2 said:

I took “in other ways” to mean “besides sex.”  Agreed that some partners can successfully compromise.

People may use "sex" to mean different things.  If "sex" means intercourse, then there may be a lot of sexuals who would be content with other *sexual* activities (oral etc) . If "sex" means "sexual activities" , then usually non-sexual stuff won't substitute. 

 

I think the different uses of the word "sex" causes a lot of confusion here. 

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2 hours ago, uhtred said:

People may use "sex" to mean different things.  If "sex" means intercourse, then there may be a lot of sexuals who would be content with other *sexual* activities (oral etc) . If "sex" means "sexual activities" , then usually non-sexual stuff won't substitute. 

 

I think the different uses of the word "sex" causes a lot of confusion here. 

When I said "in other ways" I did mean non-sexual ways, but in sensual and emotional ways.

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23 minutes ago, EasternMagic said:

For example? Just trying to understand what you mean.

So in sensual ways I mean like skin on skin contact holding each other while we sleep.  Or kissing sessions while listening to chill music together.  That sort of thing.  Really intimate without crossing a sexual line.  But damn close.  For me it almost feels akin to edging and I kinda like it.

 

The emotional ways that I require are a sense of love, trust and understanding on a mutual level.

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54 minutes ago, EasternMagic said:

When is the line crossed? When you are both aroused?

No... We definitely both get aroused.  

 

I guess to explain it in more detail, I go to bed naked because That my comfort level and he doesn't seem to have a problem with that.  Also, I really like feeling him with my bare skin.  He goes to bed in boxers and an undershirt.  That seems to be his comfort level.  I've never questioned it.  We like facing each other and embracing each other.  We'll stroke arms, or legs, or hair, or necks.  That sort of thing.  Occasionally a hand on my backside.  Not often.  I usually grab his wasteband.  That's as far as we go.  

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5 minutes ago, EasternMagic said:

You don't feel the need to... take care of yourselves afterwards? Don't you have trouble sleeping?

Is he asexual too?

I'm sexual.  He's asexual.  I take care of myself when I'm alone.  Sometimes I have trouble sleeping, but it's not because I'm frustrated.  It's because I feel absolutely alive when I'm with him.  He described it as saying I vibrate with affection when I'm near him.

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8 minutes ago, EasternMagic said:

Does he vibrate too or is that a non-ace thing?

I think it's a me thing.  😘

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On 1/23/2019 at 10:18 PM, Skullery Maid said:

If we're being honest, it sounds kind of like bullying. It sounds like you're angry, and you're not joking to stay connected in a loving and warm way, you're joking to make sure she knows you're frustrated. 

After thinking about this a bit and talking with her about it, I think you're right.  These jokes seem to be loaded, with underlying critical messages.  What tripped me up here is that I'm a sexual sadist and I thought critical jokes like that were part of my sexual expression.  However, upon reflection, when I fantasize or have S&M conversations with masochists online, I don't talk like this.  My sadism is pretty straightforward and isn't intended to make my partner feel guilty.  So, I think I need to lay off these jokes and comments, and try to express myself in other ways.  I've been trying that a bit over the past few days, and I've discovered that she isn't repulsed when I make overtures that don't involve those jokes.  I'm starting to think she doesn't actually experience sexual repulsion, but is just rightfully mad at the comments I've been making.

If that's the case, the problem is mostly solved.  I need to get a handle on my comments, and I need to figure out other ways to express myself sexually to her, but I think I can do those things.  I'm grateful for everyone's help on this thread.

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