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In need of some advice


J_G_M_

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2 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

So if you react the same either way, why does she always go with excuses?

For same reason thousands and thousands of people do.

 

Think about what I’m say when I initiate sex with my spouse

* I want you

* I desire you

* I’m attracted to you

* I want to be close to you

* You are important to me

 

Now think of it this way. Rejecting someone is the opposite of all the above. 

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10 minutes ago, xstatic said:

My ex would throw a god damn tantrum if I said no.  And not only would he go to sleep mad, he would wake up mad and hold a grudge against me until I coddled him and apologised.  It was so god damn annoying and disrespectful.

I'm sorry you had to go through that :c I ended up giving my ex sex twice a day, every single day, because of how upset he'd get if I tried to say I didn't feel like it. Life was just easier if I gritted my teeth and took the sex.  Everyone told me it was normal for me to feel like that and if I just kept giving it to him I'd start enjoying it (he was my first boyfriend I'd ever had and was 14 years older than me).. But after 5 years I just couldn't take it anymore so I left him. My only choice was give him sex, or deal with his rage and aggression.. and eventually I realised I actually just can't take another second of either the sex or the rage.

 

I will never, ever be in that situation again nor will I ever put another person into a situation where they have to give me sex they don't want. Sex, for me now, is only ever had under the condition that we both actively desire it. And contrary to what @James121 seems to believe, that's 100% possible in a happy and healthy sexually compatible relationship!

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Just now, James121 said:

For same reason thousands and thousands of people do.

 

Think about what I’m say when I initiate sex with my spouse

* I want you

* I desire you

* I’m attracted to you

* I want to be close to you

* You are important to me

 

Now think of it this way. Rejecting someone is the opposite of all the above. 

That's where people can be wrong.  I still felt all of those things for my ex.  Just, I wasn't there sexually at that moment.  And the pressure made me feel even worse.  Like the message I received from him was:

*Your feelings don't matter

*This is all about me and my wants and needs

*I'm going to punish you if you don't give me exactly what I want

 

I think part of why my current relationship with an ace works as well as it does is because I very vividly remember being in the situation listed above so I don't equate intercourse as the be all end all of the feelings of want, desire, love and attraction.

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5 minutes ago, Ficto. (on hiatus?) said:

Again, back to the whole thing where you assume everyone feels like you do.

Again....no

 

5 minutes ago, Ficto. (on hiatus?) said:

Not everyone can get in the mood by forcing themselves into sex James, it just doesn't work like that for everyone.

Did i use the word force? That’s an oppressive word you’ve used to deliberately twist and manipulate what I have said in to something really terrible.

 

8 minutes ago, Ficto. (on hiatus?) said:

I gave my ex sex that I didn't want twice a day every day for five years.

This is simply ridiculous and I’m not suggesting this at all. Let’s be a little more realistic though.... would responsive desire worked with once a week sex? 

 

10 minutes ago, Ficto. (on hiatus?) said:

And actually that's true for plenty of females. We need our emotions and minds to be in the right space for our bodies to be able to want it.

 

Because woman need to feel loved and valued to have sex right? But many woman often to forget to complete the famous saying.

 

 

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6 minutes ago, xstatic said:

That's where people can be wrong.  I still felt all of those things for my ex.  Just, I wasn't there sexually at that moment.  And the pressure made me feel even worse.  Like the message I received from him was:

*Your feelings don't matter

*This is all about me and my wants and needs

*I'm going to punish you if you don't give me exactly what I want

 

I think part of why my current relationship with an ace works as well as it does is because I very vividly remember being in the situation listed above so I don't equate intercourse as the be all end all of the feelings of want, desire, love and attraction.

I completely understand that if someone becomes oppressive if they don’t receive the desired answer to initiation, it will result in the feelings you have listed. However, flip side of the coin is repeated rejection results in my list being turned on its head.

I don’t want you

I don’t desire you 

I’m not attracted to you

i don’t want to be close to you

You’re not important to me

 

So how many times was your ex initiating and getting moody for you to be made to feel the way you describe?

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25 minutes ago, xstatic said:

My ex would throw a god damn tantrum if I said no.  And not only would he go to sleep mad, he would wake up mad and hold a grudge against me until I coddled him and apologised.  It was so god damn annoying and disrespectful.

How often did he initiate and expect sex? You need to give some idea of numbers before I can say whether he was being reasonable or unreasonable 

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A tantrum and being mad at a person for days over a no is never reasonable. That is enough to turn off a lot of sexual women, let alone asexual or grey. 

 

With my exes responsive desire - which I have for my current spouse - would not have worked, even at once every two weeks cause I didnt desire them at all, ever. For my current spouse if either of us isnt into it and a little harmless teasing doesnt change that, then sex is off the table because sex when you dont want to just sucks. Its we mutually desire it or nothing. And if its a no, we respect each other enough to not pitch a hissy fit and try to cause enough negative feelings to change the no. 

 

Not to say one cant be upset over consistent denial, but there are ... reasonable and respectful ways of saying you are sad or feeling rejected and a hissy fit tantrum isnt that. 

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1 minute ago, James121 said:

Did i use the word force? That’s an oppressive word you’ve used to deliberately twist and manipulate what I have said in to something really terrible.

 If you DON'T want it but give it anyway then you're literally forcing yourself into it. It's not rapey or anything though, it just means you're dragging yourself into bed and gritting your teeth and waiting for it to be over. THAT'S WHAT SEX IS LIKE FOR ME WHEN I DON'T WANT IT. For YOU it's not like that. Because you can want it even when you're not in the mood. I CAN'T want it if I'm not in the mood and nothing can MAKE me want it and that's just how MY body works. 

 

4 minutes ago, James121 said:

This is simply ridiculous and I’m not suggesting this at all. Let’s be a little more realistic though.... would responsive desire worked with once a week sex? 

 

No because my body is just not wired that way. My body literally cannot be forcefully turned-on by having someone else do stuff to it. I wish it was that easy for me, sure, but it's just not.

 

Again though for many females, desire is as much (if not more) about what's happening in their minds and their emotions as what's happening to their body. It's a known fact that if a woman's mind isn't in the right place, it can be very, very hard to get her body there. I happen to have a body that just WON'T get there unless my mind is in the right place. That's just how my body works.

 

8 minutes ago, James121 said:

Because woman need to feel loved and valued to have sex right? But many woman often to forget to complete the famous saying.

 

Well I would have thought most people need to feel loved and valued on at least some level to have truly pleasurable sex but whatever. For me it's that I need to be in the mood or the sex isn't happening. And my partner needs to be in the mood as well or sex isn't happening.

 

Of course I'm only going to have sex with someone who loves and values me though. I mean.. duh.

 

11 minutes ago, James121 said:

But many woman often to forget to complete the famous saying.

I can't speak for other women but if I'm in the mood (and my partner is too) I'll very happily engage in mutually desirable kinky sex. ...but if I'm not in the mood then no matter how loved and valued I feel I'm not going to force myself into sex. And I wouldn't let my partner force themselves into sex with me if they're not in the mood either. For me, loving someone and valuing them means if they don't want sex with me then I'm not going to hold that against them like it's their obligation or something. That's just me though, maybe not everyone feels that way. 

 

 

4 minutes ago, James121 said:

How often did he initiate and expect sex? You eed to give some idea of numers before I can say whether he was being reasonable or unreasonable 

It's always unreasonable to throw a temper tantrum like a 2 year old if your partner isn't in the mood for sex.

 

I mean, nowadays if any man who I'd fucked tried that on me I'd throw him out the door so fast he'd get whiplash on the way out (speaking metaphorically of course). I just wish I'd been so assertive as a teen when my then 32 year old ex got his claws into me, would have saved me a lot of pain and heartache.

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5 minutes ago, Serran said:

 

A tantrum and being mad at a person for days over a no is never reasonable. That is enough to turn off a lot of sexual women, let alone asexual or grey. 

 

I completely disagree. It completely depends on the situation as to whether it’s unreasonable or reasonable.

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4 minutes ago, Serran said:

A tantrum and being mad at a person for days over a no is never reasonable. That is enough to turn off a lot of sexual women, let alone asexual or grey. 

 

Yep, I'm feeling my libido rapidly waning just thinking about it lol. That's up there with some of the most undesirable traits in a partner.

 

4 minutes ago, Serran said:

Not to say one cant be upset over consistent denial, but there are ... reasonable and respectful ways of saying you are sad or feeling rejected and a hissy fit tantrum isnt that. 

Exactly. I don't even let my small children get away with temper tantrums over not getting something they wanted, let alone a grown-ass adult.

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4 minutes ago, Ficto. (on hiatus?) said:

literally forcing yourself into it.

Wrong. I don’t particularly like going to work sometimes. I choose to. I’m committed and I understand there is a balance in life. 

Choose vs forced

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6 minutes ago, Ficto. (on hiatus?) said:

dragging yourself into bed and gritting your teeth and waiting for it to be over. THAT'S WHAT SEX IS LIKE FOR ME WHEN I DON'T WANT IT. 

That’s because you had to do it twice a day every day for five years. Nothing like what I’m talking about. Try once a week!

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Just now, James121 said:

Wrong. I don’t particularly like going to work sometimes. I choose to. I’m committed and I understand there is a balance in life. 

Choose vs forced

I chose to force myself to have sex for the sake of my partner for 5 whole years. It's literally that simple.

 

And you're choosing to force yourself to go to work (even though you don't want to) or you know you'll face disciplinary action. 

 

Trying to make this about semantics doesn't help your case James.

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8 minutes ago, Ficto. (on hiatus?) said:

For me, loving someone and valuing them means if they don't want sex with me then I'm not going to hold that against them like it's their obligation or something. That's just me though, maybe not everyone feels that way. 

Well we are very different. For me, saying no because I’m playing candy crush is something I’d never do. It’s such a cop out to suggest that I would have to lie there and think of England. I feel that if my wife has made a move to share outlet bodies together and be close, it would be a pretty poor show to carry on trying to pass level 745. 

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3 minutes ago, Ficto. (on hiatus?) said:

I chose to force myself to have sex for the sake of my partner for 5 whole years. It's literally that simple.

 

And you're choosing to force yourself to go to work (even though you don't want to) or you know you'll face disciplinary action. 

 

Trying to make this about semantics doesn't help your case James.

Which is probably why you are where you are. If I had to force myself twice a day for 5 years I’d probably have a hatred for sex.

 

My case by the way is sound. It’s based on fact, logic and not on excuses.

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1 minute ago, James121 said:

That’s because you had to do it twice a day every day for five years. Nothing like what I’m talking about. Try once a week!

I have had sex with other people who weren't that one guy, just to be clear. I've chosen to have sex with women and a few other men before I decided I preferred celibacy. And those experiences boiled down to the same thing. I tried to push my body into wanting it even though my actual innate desire wasn't there and I just couldn't make myself enjoy the sex (like, I literally couldn't even get genitally aroused from having a gorgeous naked woman between my legs), even with the few fucking drop-dead gorgeous bi and lesbian women whom I was lucky enough to get in the sack with I just couldn't force myself into arousal. And with the men it was even more difficult because they're not as attuned to the intricacies of how to be gentle with a woman who isn't aroused sometimes. 

 

I know now that it's because I need to desire it already before my body can want it. It all ties in together. I can't force one without the other. That's just how my body works.

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4 minutes ago, Ficto. (on hiatus?) said:

I have had sex with other people who weren't that one guy, just to be clear. I've chosen to have sex with women and a few other men before I decided I preferred celibacy. And those experiences boiled down to the same thing. I tried to push my body into wanting it even though my actual innate desire wasn't there and I just couldn't make myself enjoy the sex (like, I literally couldn't even get genitally aroused from having a gorgeous naked woman between my legs), even with the few fucking drop-dead gorgeous bi and lesbian women whom I was lucky enough to get in the sack with I just couldn't force myself into arousal. And with the men it was even more difficult because they're not as attuned to the intricacies of how to be gentle with a woman who isn't aroused sometimes. 

 

I know now that it's because I need to desire it already before my body can want it. It all ties in together. I can't force one without the other. That's just how my body works.

And what were you like prior to the boyfriend who forced you to perform sexual acts every day for five years. It sounds very much to me like this is some sort of hatred of sex/PTSD off the back of what was essentially abuse.

 

 

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28 minutes ago, James121 said:

Which is probably why you are where you are. If I had to force myself twice a day for 5 years I’d probably have a hatred for sex.

I don't have a hatred for sex? 

 

I adored sex with my most recent partner, who was the man who taught me I can want and desire sex (and that I can literally still be gagging for it even after he's already made me cum three times).

 

Don't think I'm some sexually prudish woman just because I'm assertive in my needs now that I know what they are. My most recent sexual partner knew how to make someone like me want sex. You don't know because you're too set in your ways and seem to think if it works one way for one person it must work like that for everyone.

 

But believe me, there are men out there who know exactly how to handle someone like me, and as a result they get to enjoy my hypersexuality once they've awakened it. Women too of course, some of them know too. Can't forget the ladies. 

 

21 minutes ago, James121 said:

And what were you like prior to the boyfriend who forced you to perform sexual acts every day for five years. It sounds very much to me like this is some sort of hatred of sex/PTSD off the back of what was essentially abuse.

 

Well I think the answer I've just given you will explain this further for you.

 

Not getting aroused by pushing myself into sex I don't want isn't some form of PTSD. It's just me being knowledgeable of what it is that gets me going and what doesn't get me going. It's that simple.

 

 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

It isn't.

If someone who wants sex 3 times a week refrains from initiating save for twice a year and is still turned down on one those occasions, I think a tantrum is somewhat understandable personally. The person who made this reference to their partner having tantrums needs to put it in to context before anyone can suggest whether it’s reasonable or not.

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1 hour ago, James121 said:

For same reason thousands and thousands of people do.

 

Think about what I’m say when I initiate sex with my spouse

* I want you

* I desire you

* I’m attracted to you

* I want to be close to you

* You are important to me

 

Now think of it this way. Rejecting someone is the opposite of all the above. 

No, my question was - assuming she does not want sex - why does she choose an excuse over just saying “I don’t want to have sex today”?

 

Some people make excuses because their partners react better to excuses than they do to the truth, but you seem to be saying you react the same either way.

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1 hour ago, James121 said:

would responsive desire worked with once a week sex? 

Reponsive desire is something some people experience and others do not.  It’s not about frequency or reasonableness, although probably even someone who *does* experience it might be put off by unreasonable demands.

 

Also, people who do experience responsive desire do not experience it with/for every person out there who comes on to them (just as I presume you would not experience it with another man).  It’s still possible

for them to just not desire a particular person ever, or to no longer desire someone they once did.

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1 hour ago, James121 said:

Sex doesn’t work like that. 

Statements like the above certainly make it sound like you think your own experience is universally true...

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31 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

But I've read a fair number of posts where asexuals perceive a tantrum is being had over a single 'no', when to the sexual, it's an outburst from feeling hurt and rejected consistently for weeks/months/years. The asexual just doesn't see the pattern, and they don't see a 'no' as rejection, any more than not wanting to see a particular film is a rejection. There are instances of this when it seems hard to swallow and it seems like there must be at least some denial going on, but that's what I've seen plenty of asexuals say is going on.

It’s probably reasonable to guess that this is some of what leads to excuses...  if the partner reacts less harshly to an excuse than they do to an outright no, that teaches the person turning them down that excuses are a better choice.

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All of this aside, OP certainly knows his partner better than any of us do.  If OP believes his partner is honestly expressing her feelings, I’m not sure how useful “well, if she’s like *my* partner, she’s lying” observations are.

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7 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

90% sure they've been lied to

Unfortunately the best way to avoid this is to react equally pleasantly to the truth.  It’s a tough situation.

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11 hours ago, James121 said:

That isn’t what was described. You feeling repulsed by yourself and not having sex is not  not having sex because you are sex repulsed.

I just don’t believe you can flick between enjoying and embracing sex to sex repulsed. She’s excusing herself and that’s all.

No - I can assure you that in those moments I am very repulsed by the act of sex itself. =] It's because I feel repulsive, yes, but can you understand how, in those moments, when I can barely stand to be in my own body, the thought of letting someone else into it is horrible?

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24 minutes ago, Chimeric said:

No - I can assure you that in those moments I am very repulsed by the act of sex itself. =] It's because I feel repulsive, yes, but can you understand how, in those moments, when I can barely stand to be in my own body, the thought of letting someone else into it is horrible?

I totally get that and sometimes experience the same.  When you’re finding yourself repulsive, the idea of doing something that involves both you and someone else focusing on your body is... ugh.

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27 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

Or have the spine to speak your truth and face the consequences...

Someone who is inclined to speak the invarnished truth no matter what would typically not be “at risk of” being inadvertently trained to make excuses/white lies to start with, though.

 

Some people are pleasers.  For good or bad they are sensitive to the way others react and will tailor their communications to get the most positive reaction.

 

When I was a kid, if I told someone (the teacher, my mother) I was getting bullied, I got told I was lying and then shoved back into the situation.  If, on the other hand, I said I had a stomach ache I could spend the rest of the day in the nurse’s

office with any bullies safely outside.

 

Probably not the lesson they intended to teach me, but...

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1 hour ago, ryn2 said:

Reponsive desire is something some people experience and others do not.

Most do and few do not.

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17 minutes ago, James121 said:

Most do and few do not.

What are you basing this on?  While I haven’t studied all the related literature, I know E. Nagoski reported that only 5% of men and 30% of women experienced responsive desire... that’s not close to “most.”

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