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Could someone briefly explain the Ireland situation?  I can't remember the shorthand phrase that's used for it.  It seems to be all-important -- ?

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Sally, the agreement signed during the Blair era which lead to the ceasefire by the IRA, ULA et al had a clause in it to say that the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland shall be an open one, just like crossing between two states in the USA. There's different rules which apply when crossing between EU and non-EU countries, and having an agreement which suits all is proving difficult 

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20 hours ago, Frankentan said:

Why assume that? People I've spoken to know exactly why they voted as they did.

I don't dispute that, in fact I am sure that pretty much everyone who voted had a reason for voting the way that they did; it would have been silly to just flip a coin. What I do question however is whether many of those reasons are sensible, and whether people understand and appreciate the full implications of that decision. Yes, some will, but many won't. Note that I said many, not most or all. I have no doubt that many of the reasons some people had for voting the way they did were based upon incorrect assumptions or biased information. Not everyone has a particularly close interest in business and the economy, and I can't believe that those who don't fully appreciate the seriousness of the situation in the same way as people who do.

 

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On 5 February 2019 at 8:32 AM, Ortac said:

What Is do question however is whether many of those reasons are sensible, and whether people understand and appreciate the full implications of that decision.

 

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On 5 February 2019 at 11:22 AM, Telecaster68 said:

The point is to pick one who's pretty much going to vote how you would if you had time to understand the issues.

 

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3 hours ago, Dreamsexual said:

Edit:

The referendum has raised the issue of the franchise again.  I'm come across multiple remain voters who try to make the case that older people shouldn't vote because they don't have to live with the consequences, for example. It's interesting to think about exactly why we give the vote to the people we do :)

But the older generation was involved in the 1975 referendum - when I was a lot younger ;)  - we didn't say they should be excluded because they  wouldn't be affected as much. One person, one vote.

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On 5 February 2019 at 3:45 PM, Frankentan said:

we didn't say they should be excluded because they  wouldn't be affected as much.

 

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Personally I would replace all age restrictions by mandatory registration exams to make sure voters have a basic knowledge of what they are voting on. But that might be something for the "controversial opinions" thread.

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12 hours ago, Telecaster68 said:

They are virulently against anything that makes Northern Ireland different to the rest of the UK

With three exceptions

- same sex marriage

- abortion

- bar closing times  (seriously come on, night club time closing in a city on a bank holiday weekend's Sunday at 1am is ridiculous)

 

Then the DUP are thrilled to be different from the rest of the UK.

12 hours ago, Telecaster68 said:

There's also a strong political opposition from Irish republicans who want to keep pushing towards a de facto united Ireland.

I do think sinn fein are secretly (and some not so secretly) very happy at the brexit debacle as they see it as helping them towards their objective of a united ireland.

 

12 hours ago, Mysticus Insanus said:

Republic of Ireland is part of the EU, and has no plans on exiting

A party has been set up called irexit to prosper.

Funnily the party leader both writes for the Irish mail and works for ukip's group in the European parliament.

 

[Sarcasm]Because this has worked so well and been so smooth for Britain, we should leave the EU too

[/sarcasm]

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22 minutes ago, iff said:

A party has been set up called irexit to prosper.

Funnily the party leader both writes for the Irish mail and works for ukip's group in the European parliament.

 

[Sarcasm]Because this has worked so well and been so smooth for Britain, we should leave the EU too

[/sarcasm]

giphy.gif

 

Goddammit. Those nutjobs are crawling out of the woodworks everywhere. How many votes do they currently have?

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2 minutes ago, Mysticus Insanus said:

giphy.gif

 

Goddammit. Those nutjobs are crawling out of the woodworks everywhere. How many votes do they currently have?

They are talking about standing candidates for the European elections and county council elections in may. It would be their first election

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3 hours ago, Telecaster68 said:

Ireland's already had several referenda though, and was made to keep having them till they got the answer right. 

On both occasion, I think we got reassurances from the EU on various matters that had been reasons people voted against the treaty that hadn't been included in the treaty.

 

In the referendums, we had groups canvassing that the treaties would lead to same sex marriage, legalisation of drugs, legalisation of prostituition, abortion, end to our neutrality and conscription so we got reassurances from the EU that Ireland would not be included in these (that weren't in them

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How would neutrality work when they're proposing a European army?

 

On 2/5/2019 at 4:01 PM, Dreamsexual said:

Sure - unless the 'new franchise system' had been sorted out prior to a vote it shouldn't affect the vote.  But I think the question of education and age and voting rights is being/has been raised a lot by remain voters.

It would be a betrayal of all who'd  fought and died getting the ordinary man (and woman) the right to vote. Most had rudimentary education - if any at all, they were ignorant peasants.

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On ‎2‎/‎6‎/‎2019 at 5:32 PM, Frankentan said:

It would be a betrayal of all who'd  fought and died getting the ordinary man (and woman) the right to vote

 

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47 minutes ago, Frankentan said:

How would neutrality work when they're proposing a European army

It was in none of the European treaties we have already voted on  so such would require another treaty as such would be a loss of competencies for countries.

 

The Irish constitution specifies about neutrality so if we give up the neutrality, it would have to be by referendum and that referendum would certainly not pass. I don't believe in certainty when voting but a no vote there is as close to a certainty as possible. We are also not the only neutral country in Europe.

 

It really depends on the detail of any proposal rather than a headline quote.

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Today I had a look at open positions at Dyson in my field of knowledge, which happens to be right at the core of their business. There are currently two openings, one in Singapore, the other in Malaysia. "We'll keep the engineering in the UK"? Could have fooled me.

 

This is what I appreciate about Tim Martin (the Wetherspoon owner for those who don't know him) despite all the annoying pro-Brexit stuff in each of his pubs - at least he's not a bloody hypocrite.

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I think The special place in hell for those in political positionswho advocated and promoted brexit without a plan is that they will be sent every day to negotiate something they didn't want, then at end of everyday with the agreement reached, they will be told by the rest of the people that deal is not what they wanted at all and they need to go back to renegotiate with no results ever.

repeat for eternity

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On ‎2‎/‎6‎/‎2019 at 11:10 PM, iff said:

think The special place in hel

.

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Not as bad as a government and small majority of population who are hell bent on following a path that's making it worse for the majority 

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On ‎2‎/‎7‎/‎2019 at 6:46 AM, Skycaptain said:

Not as bad as a government and small majority of population who are hell bent on following a path that's making it worse for the majority 

 

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Basically brexiteers have got the hump because he spoke the truth. 

 

Maybe, just maybe, they should realise that Brexit can also mean that they want to leave Britain.....

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On ‎2‎/‎7‎/‎2019 at 8:30 AM, Telecaster68 said:

Oh FFS haven't you heard the expression before?

 

 

 

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18 minutes ago, Dreamsexual said:

Yes.  It's an expression that signifies that one wishes a special degree of torturous pain upon a group of people.  It's often used in connection to pedophiles, for example.  It's not suitable language for this person, at this time, in this context.  It shows a rather nasty streak in someone who should be willing to negotiate in good faith - but obviously isn't.  It is a 'bad thing'.

Completely agreed.

 

(Though it surprises me that a free speech advocate like yourself sees it that way. 😜)

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On ‎2‎/‎7‎/‎2019 at 9:42 AM, Telecaster68 said:

I think you're over reacting. 

 

 

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Just now, Dreamsexual said:

Really?  Why?  I don't see how my advocacy of a lack of legal/violent sanction against words should inure speakers against social consequence, rebuttal or a moral judgement that they are 'wrong'?  I wouldn't ban the publication of Mein Kampf, but I will still say it's a horrid book and that Nazis are wrong, for example.

Fair enough (borrowing your catchphrase, haha :)).

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3 hours ago, Skycaptain said:

Not as bad as a government and small majority of population who are hell bent on following a path that's making it worse for the majority 

A small majority is still a majority.  Had the vote gone the other way, regardless of how small the majority, the remain camp would have said 'Majority rules, accept it, get over it and shut up'

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16 hours ago, iff said:

It was in none of the European treaties we have already voted on  so such would require another treaty as such would be a loss of competencies for countries.

 

The Irish constitution specifies about neutrality so if we give up the neutrality, it would have to be by referendum and that referendum would certainly not pass. I don't believe in certainty when voting but a no vote there is as close to a certainty as possible. We are also not the only neutral country in Europe.

 

It really depends on the detail of any proposal rather than a headline quote.

Perhaps it's a little optimistic to assume the EU will honour such agreements. A European Army is at least an intent, even assuming the Irish would be able to 'ring fence' their troops, a proportion of the budget would be allocated to the support of any such army and that would be far more difficult to do (again assuming other member states would agree to it).

Not the only neural country - isn't Sweden a member too? Can't count Switzerland as it isn't a member though it has many of the privileges

 

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3 hours ago, Frankentan said:

A small majority is still a majority.  Had the vote gone the other way, regardless of how small the majority, the remain camp would have said 'Majority rules, accept it, get over it and shut up'

Farage said when BBC referendum night coverage began when he was projecting remain would win, that it wasn't the end, that the issue wasn't final when he thought remain would prevail in June 2016

 

2 hours ago, Frankentan said:

Perhaps it's a little optimistic to assume the EU will honour such agreements. A European Army is at least an intent, even assuming the Irish would be able to 'ring fence' their troops, a proportion of the budget would be allocated to the support of any such army and that would be far more difficult to do (again assuming other member states would agree to it).

Not the only neural country - isn't Sweden a member too? Can't count Switzerland as it isn't a member though it has many of the privileges

 

I need to see actual proposals before making up my mind rather than some soundbites as any thing else is just guesswork.

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