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19 hours ago, Sleighcaptain said:

Reference antisemitism, I'll agree that Corbout hasn't been antisemitic, but he's been damaged by not being seen to come down hard on party members who have displayed antisemitic behaviour.Β 

He definitely has been, and there were about 3 UK Jews who spoke up in his behalf.Β  Β The open expression of anti-Semitism usually comes down from the top, and he was the top.Β Β 

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6 hours ago, funky bananawarp said:

This is a relatively new development in the UK. It used to be all about class, but now age is the deciding factor. This article by the polling expert John Curtice elaborates a bit more on it. Besides Brexit, he names "attitudes towards immigration, ease of getting on the housing ladder, and the cost of university tuition" as possible factors that make a difference.

I think that, as with everywhere, younger people are more left-leaning than older people (on average). Brexit has exacerbated the effect, because many (most?) left leaning older people are pro-Brexit and thus much more likely to vote conservative than they would otherwise.

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The relationship between class and political position was never straightforward IMO. Middle class folks of high education (those sometimes disparagingly referred to as "metropolitan liberal elites") have always tended to be left wing or at least liberal, more often than not. A significant portion of the working class has always voted conservative, though I guess far more so in this election than previous ones.

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Another noticeable thing from the chart is the gender gap - a 6-7% swing towards conservative for men and labour for women. My recollection is that there was very little gender gap if any over Brexit itself, so this is probably no different to normal.

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Whore*of*Mensa
1 hour ago, Sally said:

He definitely has been, and there were about 3 UK Jews who spoke up in his behalf.Β  Β The open expression of anti-Semitism usually comes down from the top, and he was the top.Β Β 

Can you give an example of the open expression of anti semitism?

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with regard to age there was a saying a long time ago that went something like this

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"if you don't vote Labour when you are 20, or Tory when you are 50, there's something wrong with you". The young have always been more idealistic.

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In this particular election the Labour Party has offered a fairly left wing agenda. The last time a Labour party of that leaning was actually in power was the Wilson/Callaghan regime of 1974-79. There were other factors at play they couldn't control, but it was pretty bleak with electricity rationing and public worker strikes that lead to (amongst other things) bins not being collectedΒ for months. To have lived through that as an adult, one has to be at least 55 and I'm sure that that has had some effect on voters of that age.

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7 minutes ago, Midland Tyke said:

"if you don't vote Labour when you are 20, or Tory when you are 50, there's something wrong with you". The young have always been more idealistic.

Thing is, I could get behind voting conservative in different circumstances. I'm not necessarily anti-capitalist: I can get behind a well regulated capitalist economy with a strong social safety net. To hardcore socialists, that'd make me a capitalist. To hardcore capitaists, I'm a socialist.

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Given their present state though, I'm fairly sure I couldn't stomach voting Tory no matter how old I was.

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It's interesting that you appear to give no credit to the EU for the incredible economic growth the UK has had under the EU.

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β€œ

It is now also well established that older people tend to be less favourable towards immigration and more likely to have voted for Britain to leave the EU, while those with more education are more pro-immigration and more likely to have voted remain (see e.g. Kunovich, 2004; Hobolt, 2016).

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The first shows 2013 data on the percentage of people expressing a preference for reducing immigration levels. At 77%, the UK was the most anti-immigration of these countries"

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https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings/uk-public-opinion-toward-immigration-overall-attitudes-and-level-of-concern/

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The message of kicking immigrants out would have worked for 55+ even if Labour adopted it so let's not pretend. Conservatives wanted to severely restrict immigration and they won for it and nothing else.

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@natsume, not sure which "you" you are referring to.

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And yes, I think immigration attitudes are a factor. Long before the election, Labour were already watering down their original pro-immigration message under Corbyn, because it wasn't appealing to large parts of the base. There's also a distinction between their metropolitan/urban supporters, who are more pro-immigration, and their rural supporters, who are less so.

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17 minutes ago, michaeld said:

@natsume

there's also a distinction between their metropolitan/urban supporters, who are more pro-immigration, and their rural supporters, who are less so.

I, too, have heard this urban legend my entire life, but I am unable to find any statistics which back this up. It seems rooted in beliefs about country people and a desire to scapegoat racism.

"

However, while the effect of living in a more diverse neighborhood reduces prejudice, living in a more diverse metropolitan area increases it (Fosset and Kiecolt 1989;Β Quillian 1996;Β Taylor 1998). The key to explaining this apparent contradiction is whether the context facilitates face-to-face contact between in-groups and out-groups (McDermott 2011a;Β Pettigrew and Tropp 2011;Β Rocha and Espino 2009

"

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4782982/

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Sounds like white enclaves in metropolitan areas are quite prejudiced.

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By "you" I mean conservatives. I began writing my post before your response to Midland. Strikes are more likely to happen when wages fall, and that's more likely to happen during periods of economic contraction. And, post Brexit, economic contraction is inevitable.

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Β 

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12 minutes ago, natsume said:

I, too, have heard this urban legend my entire life, but I am unable to find any statistics which back this up. It seems rooted in beliefs about country people and a desire to scapegoat racism.

Interesting; I've seen some stats on this before but I'll look them up later.

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An obvious reason though has nothing to do with country people being more inherently racist. It's just that metropolitan areas are already quite diverse, and thus possibly more likely to favour immigration.

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More generally I think there was a clear trend towards more urban areas being more remain leaning when it comes to the EU. Whether that can be attributed specifically to immigration attitudes or to other factors is harder to say.

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Well, non-whites are less likely to be anti-immigrant. Non-whites have larger percentages of the population in metropolitan areas. This is the reason for the overall figures. This does not mean that the white people are less anti-immigrant.Β 

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Which is quite consistent with what I wrote, as I'm obviously writing about the entire urban population, not just white people. I'm not comparing whites in urban areas to whites in non-urban areas, but overall trends.

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Whore*of*Mensa
9 hours ago, Midland Tyke said:

if you don't vote Labour when you are 20, or Tory when you are 50, there's something wrong with you

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It's this - 'If you’re not a socialist before you’re twenty-five, you have no heart; if you are a socialist after twenty-five, you have no head.'

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9 hours ago, Midland Tyke said:

In this particular election the Labour Party has offered a fairly left wing agenda. The last time a Labour party of that leaning was actually in power was the Wilson/Callaghan regime of 1974-79. There were other factors at play they couldn't control, but it was pretty bleak with electricity rationing and public worker strikes that lead to (amongst other things) bins not being collectedΒ for months. To have lived through that as an adult, one has to be at least 55 and I'm sure that that has had some effect on voters of that age.

Well, we have a new kind of rubbish that doesn't get collected now -Β  a homeless man lay in the street yesterday for several hours before anyone realised he was dead.Β 

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DueΒ to the closure of domestic violence shelters, the number of women killed by a partner has gone up from 2 per week to 3 per week

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Personally, I still have a heart although I'm way over 25, and - I can't help it - I hate the Tories and everyone who voted for them. ☹️

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19 hours ago, More*of*Wenceslas said:

Can you give an example of the open expression of anti semitism?

Laying a wreath on the tomb of a Nazi soldier, and being photographed doing so.Β Β 

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12 hours ago, More*of*Wenceslas said:

It's this - 'If you’re not a socialist before you’re twenty-five, you have no heart; if you are a socialist after twenty-five, you have no head.'

The American (and Wizard of Oz themed) version of this:

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"If you're a 20 year-old Republican, you have no heart, if you're a 50 year-old Democrat, you have no brain, and if you cant admit to that publicly, you have no courage."Β 

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(Not that I agree with it, but it's memorable.)

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1 hour ago, AspieAlly613 said:

The American (and Wizard of Oz themed) version of this:

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"If you're a 20 year-old Republican, you have no heart, if you're a 50 year-old Democrat, you have no brain, and if you cant admit to that publicly, you have no courage."Β 

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(Not that I agree with it, but it's memorable.)

If you're a Republican, no matter your age, you have no brain.

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13 hours ago, Sally said:

Laying a wreath on the tomb of a Nazi soldier, and being photographed doing so.Β Β 

Most Nazi soldiers were just ordinary guys who likely didn't have much choice in the matter. They had to do what they were told or risk themselves and their families being killed.

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13 hours ago, Sally said:

Laying a wreath on the tomb of a Nazi soldier, and being photographed doing so.Β Β 

Could you cite a source for this? The only thing that relates to wreath laying I know of was in Tunisia and was either

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- to honour innocent people killed in an Israeli air strike in 1985 (Corbyn's version)

or

- at the grave of one of the people involved in the killing of Israeli athletes at the 1972 Munich Olympics (this is what the Daily Mail published)

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I'm not in a position to tell which version is true, but: even if Corbyn's version is correct, it is in my view a mistake to take a side in a conflict like the one between Palestinians and Israel or the Northern Ireland conflict. (Regarding the latter, Corbyn is known to have had intense contacts with nationalists, but not - at least not to my knowledge - with unionists.) Having met both Palestinians and Israelis myself I can say that what I've taken out of conversations with both is that normal people suffer from the conflict and I just wish there will be a definite solution for peace in the area. Taking a side is something I cannot imagine, and that is me just being some random outsider. For a politician, especially a high-profile one,Β  it's something that is bound to backfire.

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In my opinion this is at the core of what's wrong about Corbyn.

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Whore*of*Mensa
14 hours ago, Sally said:

Laying a wreath on the tomb of a Nazi soldier, and being photographed doing so.Β Β 

I think you might need to do some fact checking on this one. I've added a link below, if you want to read it - it gives both sides, and what evidence there is for either.Β 

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This story blew up over the fact that Jeremy Corbyn was pictured with Palestinian leaders, in a graveyard, holding a wreath. He was not photographed laying a wreath on any grave.Β  The event took place a year before he became Labour leader but was brought up by the Press later.Β 

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The wreath was to commemorate those killed in a terrorist attack committed by Israel, which was condemned by all governments at the time. The victims of the terror attack included Palestinian leaders of the time who wereΒ terrorists, as well as innocent people. Because theyΒ were Palestinian terrorists who attacked Jewish people,Β they were called Nazis. Hence, the media statedΒ that Jeremy Corbyn had laid a wreath on the grave of a Nazi.

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Some sources also stated that he was seen standing close to the graves of people who had carried out a terrorist attacks against Israel, hence again the claim he was celebrating Nazis.Β 

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https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-jeremy-corbyn-and-the-wreath-row

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There were similar charges thrown at him for the fact that he had a dialogue with the IRA, alsoΒ terrorists. His focus has always been to bring about peace.Β  AΒ Labour Government later brought about an agreement with the IRA which led to peace in Ireland (which the Conservatives areΒ about to completely fuck up with Brexit by the way).

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Whore*of*Mensa
15 minutes ago, funky bananawarp said:

even if Corbyn's version is correct, it is in my view a mistake to take a side in a conflict like the one between Palestinians and Israel or the Northern Ireland conflict

I don't disagree, however, Britain had already taken sides in Ireland by sending troops there to support the Unionists. It was an incredibly complex situation. I don't claim to understand it any more than I claim to understand Palestine/Israel. But I'm pretty sure that a politician would need to talk to both sides to get a clear picture.Β 

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(I posted my response to Sally at the same time as you)

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1 hour ago, More*of*Wenceslas said:

I don't disagree, however, Britain had already taken sides in Ireland by sending troops there to support the Unionists. It was an incredibly complex situation. I don't claim to understand it any more than I claim to understand Palestine/Israel. But I'm pretty sure that a politician would need to talk to both sides to get a clear picture.Β 

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(I posted my response to Sally at the same time as you)

And then there was the collusion between loyalist terrorists and the British state. One such example being the murder of human rights solicitor pat finucane in 1989.Β 

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From this, it seems that he condemns all sides.Β 

2 hours ago, funky bananawarp said:

For a politician, especially a high-profile one,Β  it's something that is bound to backfire.

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In my opinion this is at the core of what's wrong about Corbyn.

But at the time in the 1980s, was Corbyn a high profile one? He was one of the 600 or so backbench mps.Β 

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Honestly i only heard of Corbyn in 2015 when he ran for Labour leader

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3 hours ago, Cheshire-Cat said:

Most Nazi soldiers were just ordinary guys who likely didn't have much choice in the matter. They had to do what they were told or risk themselves and their families being killed.

Er … that doesn't mean you should go round laying wreaths on their graves and impliedly condone the holocaust.

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That said, like the others, I can only find the Tunisia thing on this and it doesn't look clear-cut to me. That said, I also know relatively little about the Israeli-Palestine conflict except that everyone who picks a side gets very upset if I tell them I'm not informed enough to pick a side, because it's apparently very straightforward. They then proceed to inform me how horrible the other side is. I know enough people with views on both sides that all this serves is to balance me out. But I do note the Daily Mail isn't exactly a strong source of facts...

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Lonemathsytoothbrushthief
On 12/16/2019 at 2:20 PM, natsume said:

It's interesting that you appear to give no credit to the EU for the incredible economic growth the UK has had under the EU.

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β€œ

It is now also well established that older people tend to be less favourable towards immigration and more likely to have voted for Britain to leave the EU, while those with more education are more pro-immigration and more likely to have voted remain (see e.g. Kunovich, 2004; Hobolt, 2016).

Β 

The first shows 2013 data on the percentage of people expressing a preference for reducing immigration levels. At 77%, the UK was the most anti-immigration of these countries"

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https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings/uk-public-opinion-toward-immigration-overall-attitudes-and-level-of-concern/

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The message of kicking immigrants out would have worked for 55+ even if Labour adopted it so let's not pretend. Conservatives wanted to severely restrict immigration and they won for it and nothing else.

I agree with you and it's really frightening. There's a big part of me which wants to help in an active way not just donate to stuff, but I'm isolated because I can't maintain travelling a lot/going out/working easily because of disabilities. So I kind of rely on others more than I can offer them any help.

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Lonemathsytoothbrushthief
40 minutes ago, natsume said:

Right-wing populism/corruption may take Poland out of the EU next.Β 

Are there other countries to keep an eye on? From what I've heard a lot of centre-east european countries are right wing now, austria, hungary, romania...but considering how many EU countries are racist and xenophobic anyway and how they've already influenced so much of EU politics internationally, I really don't see the point in more countries leaving. They basically have what they want, and I thought the UK was the main country with a government which has this conviction that the EU is too left wing. It does start to feel like the benefit is more focused on what right wingers on top can gain from outside of the EU than any actual difficulty they have implementing extremely right wing policies while inside the EU. Which sounds cliche with the number of people who go on about russia, but tbh if this idea spread to other countries in a majority I'd be kind of surprised. It feels like a right wing I don't understand tbh, because I don't understand the economies of other countries well enough but what I know of the UK has made me feel there really isn't much logic, capitalist or otherwise.

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29 minutes ago, Lonemathsytoothbrushthief said:

Are there other countries to keep an eye on? From what I've heard a lot of centre-east european countries are right wing now, austria, hungary, romania...but considering how many EU countries are racist and xenophobic anyway and how they've already influenced so much of EU politics internationally, I really don't see the point in more countries leaving. They basically have what they want, and I thought the UK was the main country with a government which has this conviction that the EU is too left wing. It does start to feel like the benefit is more focused on what right wingers on top can gain from outside of the EU than any actual difficulty they have implementing extremely right wing policies while inside the EU. Which sounds cliche with the number of people who go on about russia, but tbh if this idea spread to other countries in a majority I'd be kind of surprised. It feels like a right wing I don't understand tbh, because I don't understand the economies of other countries well enough but what I know of the UK has made me feel there really isn't much logic, capitalist or otherwise.

Well, this may not be voluntary like the UK. They have been warned to stop stuffing their courts with political allies by the EU.

"The proposals would allow judges to be dismissed if they questioned the government's judicial reforms.

Judges say the proposals threaten the primacy of EU law and could be an attempt to gag the judiciary"

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https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-europe-50828516

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Being a member of the EU has extraordinary economic benefits to the point that I don't think any other member's ruling government would voluntarily request to leave as it would be political suicide. But forcing the EU to kick Poland out may be a strategy of Duda to gain the immigration control that Brexit has given Boris.

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