Master UK Political Discussion Thread

[Cheshire-Cat]

2 hours ago, Moonman said:

https://www.camera.org/article/jeremy-corbyns-antisemitism-crisis-a-timeline/

 

If you want a simplification, he's a supporter of Palestine. 

So he supports people that got pissed off because the land they lived in was split up and shared out between others? Same as India and Pakistan. The British were assholes back in the day and put boundaries where they wanted, not necessarily where they were suitable. Both Palestine and Isreal like to fight each other over borders and who entitled to what. Supporting one side doesn't make him anti-semitic. It's just an excuse.

[Tyke]

I don't think that Labour would have done any better replaying their 2017 Brexit policy for a second time. The electorate really does want to get Brexit moved on (one way or another). Only two parties offered clarity on that front. And from the comments I've read from Northern Labour Heartland voters they didn't warm to Corbyn, perceiving him as too metropolitan; and also too left-leaning. He's a long way from Blair and Brown, isn't he?

 

Labour is far from doomed, though. Whatever happens in the next 5 years wont be easy and probably wont be popular. Labour needs a new leader (for sure) and probably a somewhat less left-leaning manifesto. It's traditional voters will flood back. UNLESS the Lib-dems can steal their ground. The Corbyn years have been a fantastic opportunity for the Lib-dems to make ground. I'm sad that hasn't happened. Because once Brexit runs its course, had they been a stronger/larger force, they could have picked up voters from Tory supporters who see BJ as too right wing. But it hasn't happened. 

[michaeld]

10 minutes ago, Midland Tyke said:

The Corbyn years have been a fantastic opportunity for the Lib-dems to make ground. I'm sad that hasn't happened.

The lib dems actually increased their vote share pretty significantly in this election, and quite consistently at least in the seats I saw. (I haven't done a thorough review.) However in the first past the post system we have, they had zilch to show for it.

 

Realistically Labour couldn't re-run their 2017 strategy, I agree. I don't think they had any good options.

 

I wish the remain parties (or even vaguely kinda-sorta remain-leaning parties like labour) could have made a proper alliance. In FPTP it's the only way really. However I have no idea how that could have been made to work, given some of the other differences between these parties.

[natsume]

[iff]

1 hour ago, natsume said:

. But rebuilding the UK trade deals will be a very slow, years long process that will hurt the people who wanted Brexit the most (financially, anyway... they'll still punish the immigrants as they desired, and maybe that was more important to them anyway).

Sajjid david declared leaving would guarantee a lost decade for British business. 

https://www.sajidjavid.com/news/sajid-javid-only-thing-leaving-eu-guarantees-lost-decade-british-business

 

3 hours ago, Lonemathsytoothbrushthief said:

, OH  and the thing I'm focused on now which is criminalise trespass to a degree that it threatens to remove the homes of the roma and travellers. 

This misses an aspect of it, they want to confiscate those they SUSPECT of trespass

 

This is from the home office consultation document

 

Quote

 Q14: Should the police be able to seize the property of:

i) Anyone whom they suspect to be trespassing on land with the purpose of 
residing on it;
ii) Anyone they arrest for trespassing on land with the purpose of residing on it; or
iii) Anyone convicted of trespassing on land with the purpose of residing on it?
 

 

Asset forfeiture should not be punishment, except where the asset was proceeds of crime (which wouldn't apply here) 

[Lonemathsytoothbrushthief]

1 minute ago, festiff said:

This misses an aspect of it, they want to confiscate those they SUSPECT of trespass

Even more horrifying! I'm just furious about everything right now. Especially the lack of attention from leftists elsewhere, just because our media's so consumed with tory propaganda.

[michaeld]

8 minutes ago, natsume said:

Very interesting how the support for the lib dems (and the other parties listed, other than the "big two") seems pretty well age-independent. Lib dems are 11-13% across all age ranges listed. Huh.

[daveb]

1 hour ago, natsume said:

What are AB, C1, C2, and DE?

 

So much about British politics reminds me of US politics. Although in the US case we generally use red for Republicans and blue for Democrats, so those colors would be switched, and third parties generally don't get such a large percentage as 10+.

[iff]

6 hours ago, daveb said:

What are AB, C1, C2, and DE?

Those are different social classes that are applied in surveys and opinion polls

 

AB - upper middle class)(a) and middle class (b) 

C1 - lower middle class

C2 - skilled working class

DE - working class (d) and non-working class (e) 

 

Why is that reminding me of flatland? 

[Sally]

21 hours ago, funky bananawarp said:

No. Antisemitism has always been very present in all of Europe until this day. In the UK we're talking about 5-30% of the population with antisemitic attitudes (according to the Institute for Jewish Policy Research https://cst.org.uk/public/data/file/7/4/JPR.2017.Antisemitism in contemporary Great Britain.pdf).

Yes, I'm aware of the anti-Semitism in Europe, both previously (as a Jew how could I not be?) and currently, including the UK.

 

However, Johnson hasn't, that I'm aware of, openly acted upon any anti-Semitism that he may feel, and since he hasn't up to now, he presumably won't as the leader.  Corbyn, on the other hand, has, and no doubt would have.     

[natsume]

1 hour ago, Sally said:

Yes, I'm aware of the anti-Semitism in Europe, both previously (as a Jew how could I not be?) and currently, including the UK.

 

However, Johnson hasn't, that I'm aware of, openly acted upon any anti-Semitism that he may feel, and since he hasn't up to now, he presumably won't as the leader.  

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/dec/11/boris-johnsons-record-of-bigotry-antisemitism-and-far-right-politics-must-not-be-forgotten

“
Boris Johnson has invoked some of the oldest and most pernicious antisemitic stereotypes in a book he wrote when he was a Conservative shadow minister. He describes “Jewish oligarchs” who run the media, and fiddle the figures to fix elections in their favour.

He portrays a Jewish character, Sammy Katz, with a “proud nose and curly hair”, and paints him as a malevolent, stingy, snake-like Jewish businessman who exploits immigrant workers for profit.

 

Johnson has form when it comes to anti-Jewish hatred. As editor of the Spectator he chose to publish articles in which the notorious racist Taki Theodoracopulos boasted of being “an antisemite”, argued black people “have lower IQs than whites” and praised Enoch Powell as a “great man”. Johnson defended Theodoracopulos, calling him a “distinguished columnist”. Even now Johnson continues to cosy up to Donald Trump

”

 

You presume a lot about Boris. 

 

 

[Cheshire-Cat]

I think Labour would do well with a policy somewhere between Corbyn and recent previous party leaders. For many years people said Labour were becoming too right leaning and Corbyn represented those who were actual left leaning. Only problem was he ended up too far left leaning. A policy somewhere in the middle would probably capture some of those who liked his more left leaning policies without alienating the people who liked previous leaders. But I suspect we will end up with another more right leaning Labour leader again.

 

 

I would also say one thing I liked about Corbyn is he didn't just look at people who commit 'terrorist' acts and say they were bad people. People don't just go out there and blow themselves and others up for the heck of it. There is a reason WHY and many seem to brush over actually looking at that because it's easier to just call them bad people. For example, why do some Palestinians feel so strongly about the injustice they feel has been done that they are willing to die, and kill others, for it. And what can be done about that to resolve the root of the problem. That is often what Corbyn was trying to do. You don't talk to these organisation then you will NEVER resolve their issues because you won't understand why they do what they do. Even if some see talking to people who feel (possibly justifiably) extremely pissed off and willing to take extreme action about it as 'collaborating with terrorists'.

[Sally]

1 hour ago, natsume said:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/dec/11/boris-johnsons-record-of-bigotry-antisemitism-and-far-right-politics-must-not-be-forgotten

“
Boris Johnson has invoked some of the oldest and most pernicious antisemitic stereotypes in a book he wrote when he was a Conservative shadow minister. He describes “Jewish oligarchs” who run the media, and fiddle the figures to fix elections in their favour.

He portrays a Jewish character, Sammy Katz, with a “proud nose and curly hair”, and paints him as a malevolent, stingy, snake-like Jewish businessman who exploits immigrant workers for profit.

 

Johnson has form when it comes to anti-Jewish hatred. As editor of the Spectator he chose to publish articles in which the notorious racist Taki Theodoracopulos boasted of being “an antisemite”, argued black people “have lower IQs than whites” and praised Enoch Powell as a “great man”. Johnson defended Theodoracopulos, calling him a “distinguished columnist”. Even now Johnson continues to cosy up to Donald Trump

”

 

You presume a lot about Boris. 

 

 

Yikes.  I guess I did.  Thanks for the information.  

[Whore*of*Mensa]

https://www.thecanary.co/opinion/2019/11/28/michael-rosen-sets-the-record-straight-on-behalf-of-thousands-of-jewish-people-who-support-jeremy-corbyn/

 

Here is what Michael Rosen says:

 

'I’ve known Jeremy Corbyn for 30 years. He is no antisemite. He has put his neck on the line hundreds of times in opposing racism, antisemitism, far right fascism, holocaust denial.

 

If the media had wanted to, they could have asked Jewish MPs, Jewish candidates in this election ‘Is it impossible or unsafe for you to be in the Labour Party?’ It has been dishonest of them to have not done that.'

 

And an article from a Jewish supporter highlighting the hypocrisy of the 'concern' in the Press about anti-semitism

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/jeremy-corbyn-anti-semitism-labour-conference-jewish-supporter-vote-political-weapon-a7330891.html

 

For years now I’ve travelled across the UK to report from far-right, fascist and neo-Nazi rallies, and the counter-demonstrations that take place alongside. I’ve seen the real threat that faces Jews in the country, those who profess hatred for Jews and our religion, who wear swastikas as badges of honour, who’ll salute like a Nazi in front of your face. Where was your concern for my community then?

 

This isn’t to say I don’t value the concern, but I want to make a few things perfectly clear. Anti-Semitism is not a problem particular to Labour; using the words “Judaism” and “Israel” interchangeably is just as (if not more) common on the right as on the left. 

 

Oppression, discrimination and Jewish identity are complex; the relationship between our religion and the state of Israel is constantly debated; disagreements will happen inside our community. Let us lead these discussions. Don’t quickly take sides simply to advance your faction, angle or personal interests. 

 

 

[Sally]

https://www.timesofisrael.com/concern-at-anti-semitism-extended-beyond-jews-played-key-role-in-corbyn-defeat/?utm_source=The+Weekend+Edition&utm_campaign=weekend-edition-2019-12-15&utm_medium=email

 

[Whore*of*Mensa]

I understand that people were fearful of Corbyn, but do you think they were properly informed?

 

That's the point many Jewish supporters were trying to make. The Press reported widely on Corbyn, not out of real concern about anti-semitism, but because they were using it as a weapon against him. 

You can find many articles about the same issue in the Conservative party, for example: 

 

https://www.jewishvoiceforlabour.org.uk/article/how-come-jacob-rees-moggs-antisemitism-goes-unnoticed/

 

All I would say is, there is not one Jewish viewpoint on this, and it appears that your politics will influence which party you support rather than facts about anti-semitism - because the facts do not favour the Tories over Labour on this.

 

[Skycaptain]

Reference antisemitism, I'll agree that Corbout hasn't been antisemitic, but he's been damaged by not being seen to come down hard on party members who have displayed antisemitic behaviour. 

[Whore*of*Mensa]

In the early hours of Friday morning, I was worrying about what this Tory win means for people who depend on public services - it turns out I'm not the only one

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/dec/14/housing-charities-and-food-banks-report-spike-in-donations-after-tory-win

 

There's been a huge wave of people signing up as supporters, or giving money to, homeless charities, foodbanks and domestic violence centres, There was a 52% increase in donations to Refuge, which helps victims of domestic abuse, after polling closed on Thursday. We all know what a Tory win means and some of us are very afraid now...

[Siimo van der fietspad]

That chart is very telling. The Cons - even combined with the Brexiters - only got the largest share of the vote amongst the over-65s. It would, however, be more revealing to see these age groups by turnout as well.

[Cheshire-Cat]

I think it would also be interesting to see what percentage of each group voted. So did more 65+ vote than 18 year old for example.

[Janus the Fox]

At least good to see the Plain held all existing seats And increased the voter share in those.  The “labour impenetrable wall” is gone, only the “Plaid Coast” and “The Labour heartlands” exist where I reside.  This would be an interesting Assembly Member Election next year, glad to see the Plaid-Labour Coalition in Wales still fairly strong yet still. 

[natsume]

@Cheshire-Cat

The demographics look eerily similar to Trump's win, and in that 55+ voted more than under 55, and 65+ voted at the highest rates.

Trump gave Boris a game plan, and he executed it.

[natsume]

And Boris is trying to tell Scotland that they aren't allowed a referendum on independence anymore. Precedence is already set by allowing the first referendum, little Trump.

And SNP has announced that it will formally request another referendum.

[michaeld]

12 minutes ago, natsume said:

And Boris is trying to tell Scotland that they aren't allowed a referendum on independence anymore. Precedence is already set by allowing the first referendum, little Trump.

And SNP has announced that it will formally request another referendum.

Yeah I'd love to know how we're going to keep the UK intact now. The more the UK government denies[1] them a referendum, the more the independence movement will grow. Soon the vast majority of Scotland will be in favour. That kind of situation is untenable. Sturgeon is exactly right: the UK can't keep Scotland imprisoned in the UK forever. And by the time they do get a referendum, the UK will have exhausted what (if any) credit they had with Scottish voters: independence will probably romp home.

 

I wonder if we'll see scenes similar to the Catalan (non-allowed) referendum. I hope not!

 

[1] I could buy the "once in a generation" argument, except that was before Brexit, and they were pretty much told by union supporters that the UK wasn't going to leave the EU.

[natsume]

Yes, the EU told Scotland that if it left the UK while it was an EU member it would not be allowed to rejoin the EU independently. This was a major factor in the first referendum.

 

I didn't catch her name but I listened to a SNP MP this morning and she said the EU "intimated that we would be allowed to join" the EU if it is independent. Economic uncertainty was a major concern in the first referendum, but now it could easily be argued that leaving the UK and joining the EU gives Scotland greater economic security.

 

[michaeld]

1 minute ago, natsume said:

Yes, the EU told Scotland that if it left the UK while it was an EU member it would not be allowed to rejoin the EU independently. This was a major factor in the first referendum.

Hmm I don't remember that. I think there was concern about Spain vetoing their joining the EU as an independent nation, precisely because of the example it would set to the Catalan independence movement. But I don't think they ever got a definitive statement to this effect?

 

I remember one burning issue was whether Scotland would automatically inherit EU membership from the UK's membership, if it became independent, or whether they'd have to reapply. The SNP argued they should automatically inherit, while the UK government said they'd have to re-apply. I think the EU might have confirmed the latter but I'm not sure.

 

1 minute ago, natsume said:

I didn't catch her name but I listened to a SNP MP this morning and she said the EU "intimated that they would be allowed to join" the EU if it is independent. Economic uncertainty was a major concern in the first referendum, but now it could easily be argued that leaving the UK and joining the EU gives Scotland greater economic security.

I suspect the only possible barriers to their joining would be political not economic. The EU doesn't really like independence movements and doesn't want to encourage them. Spain especially. However despite that, I doubt they'd ultimately deny Scotland entrance to the EU. They might just make them work hard for it, and make sure it's on their (existing EU members') terms.

[natsume]

The EU strongly discourages independence movements within its members, but the UK is (soon to be) not a member. 

[Tyke]

There will be considerable hurdles and issues to address. For example, does the UK have a trade deal with the EU? If not a 'hard border' between England/Wales/NI and Scotland would be necessary. Also, what currency will Scotland operate with? Sterling? Or the Euro?

 

I think the (current) UK government could argue that the people of Scotland wouldn't be in possession of a complete picture until the end of 2020 (the deadline set by the yet to be passed but likely to be passed Withdrawal agreement). Nicola Sturgeon, I gather, is pushing to hold the second referendum in 2020. I don't think she'll get that.

 

An altogether different question is whether Scotland would vote for independence. I don't think the popularity of the SNP in the latest election was because of a deep desire for independence, more a dislike of the alternatives (I jokingly suggested to friends that if the SNP had put up candidates in England they'd be the new UK govt, so unpopular are the Cons and Labour in some parts). A lot of Scotland's wealth historically has come from North Sea Oil. Given the drive to remove fossil fuels from the energy market by 2030 or 2050, where will their income come from? There's a lot to consider. My guess would be that it would be (just) voted down again. 

[Muledeer]

So, age had a larger influence on how people voted that did their social status?  That doesn't make sense to me.

17 hours ago, festiff said:

Those are different social classes that are applied in surveys and opinion polls

 

AB - upper middle class)(a) and middle class (b) 

C1 - lower middle class

C2 - skilled working class

DE - working class (d) and non-working class (e) 

 

Why is that reminding me of flatland? 

 

[timewarp]

5 hours ago, Muledeer said:

So, age had a larger influence on how people voted that did their social status?  That doesn't make sense to me.

This is a relatively new development in the UK. It used to be all about class, but now age is the deciding factor. This article by the polling expert John Curtice elaborates a bit more on it. Besides Brexit, he names "attitudes towards immigration, ease of getting on the housing ladder, and the cost of university tuition" as possible factors that make a difference.