Master UK Political Discussion Thread

[natsume]

Now that the UK is officially having a gigantic economic contraction as it loses its amazing EU trade deals, the next step will be making sure England is taken care of first with the smaller pie, and now there just won't be enough crust leftovers for Scotland and Ireland anymore. I'm not sure that if the 30 year low contraction we all saw previewed when the referendum passed in 2016 returns that it leaves Scotland and Ireland any choice. I mean, I don't know what conservative voters are thinking, but 30 year low isn't just a recession, it's going to feel like a depression.

But, don't you worry, Boris is backed by land developers who are going to buy all your land up cheap in the recession.

Like Trump said, recession is a great opportunity for them.

[ben8884]

3 hours ago, michaeld said:

I'm rather proud of the fact that (while I do have some Brexit-supporting relatives) my two living (at the time) grandparents voted remain. They were both born in the 1920s and on opposite sides of the family (so unrelated themselves). Maybe the pre-boomer generation, which they belonged to, had a more positive attitude to the EU...

I felt the same way when my Mom told me that her grand parents voted remain in 70s. The way they saw it, they saw Europe ripped apart due to war...twice. To them, the EEC as it was then known meant peace. 

[Whore*of*Mensa]

Well, I have yet to speak to anyone who voted Tory. Speaking to my taxi driver home today, I said I don't feel like I want to be in this town any more (because it's now Conservative) but I know I'm lucky, I have less to worry about, I'm...He said 'Yeah, trying being black and Moslem'...Which is what I meant, and he know what I meant. People are going to suffer because we now have a racist and elitist Government . If Labour had been voted in I would think, yeah I can relax now because people will be looked after as they are entitled to be...But now I know they won't. 

 

People will now rely on charity. i know that socialism dictates that we shouldn't help people by charity because it's the duty of the State to help them, which I agree with, but now can we stand by in all conscience knowing people are going to be living in destitution and nobody will help them?

 

Charity is a right wing concept. But at the same time...Look at this mess...What to do..?

[Sally]

1 hour ago, More*of*Wenceslas said:

 I know I'm lucky, I have less to worry about, I'm...He said 'Yeah, trying being black and Moslem'...Which is what I meant, and he know what I meant. People are going to suffer because we now have a racist and elitist Government . If Labour had been voted in I would think, yeah I can relax now because people will be looked after as they are entitled to be...But now I know they won't. 

 

On the other hand, liberal Jews can relax (for the time being), because they were extremely worried about Corbyn, with good reason.  They had to choose between voting for a party which doesn't care about what people need and voting for a party with a leader who is anti-Semitic and threatened their safety in England.  That isn't a choice anyone should have to make.  

[Lonemathsytoothbrushthief]

6 hours ago, Sally said:

On the other hand, liberal Jews can relax (for the time being), because they were extremely worried about Corbyn, with good reason.  They had to choose between voting for a party which doesn't care about what people need and voting for a party with a leader who is anti-Semitic and threatened their safety in England.  That isn't a choice anyone should have to make.  

Yeah I really doubt Boris Johnson of all people supports jews.

[Blaiddmelyn]

6 hours ago, Sally said:

On the other hand, liberal Jews can relax (for the time being), because they were extremely worried about Corbyn, with good reason.  They had to choose between voting for a party which doesn't care about what people need and voting for a party with a leader who is anti-Semitic and threatened their safety in England.  That isn't a choice anyone should have to make.  

Of course, the non-uk people, muslims and lgbt people had to make that choice and got a man who hates them and threatens their safety.

 

And tbh, I doubt BoJo cares much about Jewish people so I'm not sure their safety is guaranteed automatically - though as I'm not Jewish  (eh, technically I am racially iirc but nobody in my family has practised for 3 generations)( because they were in the Soviet Union and religion wasn't allowed to be a thing and now only two of my relatives returned to it) I won't comment on whether Jewish people here do or don't feel relieved as it isn't my place.

 

That said, turning it into an us vs them this way just makes the problem worse on all sides. We should have a PM who doesn't hate any of us!

[Still]

...the UK election was won by the guy who didn't even bother to hide the fact that he wants to sell the country out to the highest bidder and turn it into a corporatocracy. This world really is garbage.

 

6 hours ago, Sally said:

 voting for a party with a leader who is anti-Semitic and threatened their safety in England. 

Theresa May revealed a statue for a literal Nazi like a week ago.

[timewarp]

7 hours ago, Sally said:

On the other hand, liberal Jews can relax

No. Antisemitism has always been very present in all of Europe until this day. In the UK we're talking about 5-30% of the population with antisemitic attitudes (according to the Institute for Jewish Policy Research https://cst.org.uk/public/data/file/7/4/JPR.2017.Antisemitism in contemporary Great Britain.pdf).

[Cheshire-Cat]

32 minutes ago, Moonman said:

To boot, is there a shred of credible evidence that the NHS is going to be sold or privatised? What evidence do we have but fearmongering?

It already is. New NHS hospitals in England are largely private with only a minimum of NHS staff. Large parts of the ambulance service in England are also private. Many outpatient facilities are private. This has lead to some disasters as they often go to the cheapest bidder who may find they can't actually deliver the required service for the price they bid and then it falls back on the NHS to pick up the pieces. Remember a few years ago when Richard Branson got all upset because he didn't regain a children services NHS contract and it was all over the papers? There have also been issues regarding the qualifications of staff put out by private services as well.

[fooledbysecrecy]

even if BJ actually wasn't a racist/homophobe/misogynist/etc although he has said all those things, the fact that he has said all that unfortunately give validation to a lot of people who agree with his comments. people see their leader saying these things and feel it justifies their racism/misogyny/homophobia.

and tbh whatever the truth i don't really think he and most tories really give a shit about anyone else than rich white people. i feel sad for the northern working class people who went tory for the first time bc they want to 'get brexit done', this goverment is not gonna do anything for them. brexit won't just 'get done', and considering how many of these voters are 65+ how many of them will even be alive or well enough to "benefit" from their brexit? and will they even have nurses and other carers? will they be able to afford the private healthcare?

 

anyway yeah, so much worse result that i expected (from my london bubble).

and as a low-skilled, low income, queer immigrant with mental health issues (so kinda depending on the nhs)  i feel really really fucking scared. and exhausted. i know we need to fight and i know it takes a long time but.. idk how much i have left in me. (but yeah who cares, i suppose they want poor foreigners dead anyway)

 

also i just CANNOT BELIEVE that twat got away with all the lies, hiding in a fridge, avoiding scrutiny (that russia report, refusing andrew neil interview etc).... i sure hope there will be another snap election in the next two years.🙄

[Whore*of*Mensa]

26 minutes ago, fooledbysecrecy said:

even if BJ actually wasn't a racist/homophobe/misogynist/etc although he has said all those things, the fact that he has said all that unfortunately give validation to a lot of people who agree with his comments. people see their leader saying these things and feel it justifies their racism/misogyny/homophobia.

Well exactly...Do the people who don't think BJ is racist also think that Trump is not racist?

 

And re whether Jeremy Corbyn is anti-semitic - this is based on the fact he didn't act enough on anti-semitism in his party, not that he personally has ever said anything anti-semitic. But the press have had a field day and now everyone believes he is anti-semitic himself. 

 

The Tory party is rampant with Islamaphobia, and refused to launch an inquiry, in addition to their leader making racist comments - yet that is hardly mentioned in the Press. 

[Whore*of*Mensa]

2 hours ago, Moonman said:

To boot, is there a shred of credible evidence that the NHS is going to be sold or privatised? What evidence do we have but fearmongering? Supposedly, stuff of this nature was spoken about in UK-US trade talks but of course it was, because healthcare is private in the US and pharma is big business there

I've been following this for years. There's a group of people who work in the NHS who campaign against privatisation, and they are in a position to know what is happening. Tory politicians are all committed to privatisation - Jeremy Hunt, the former health secretary, co-authored documents and made speeches calling for a model like the US medical care model to be implemented in the UK https://koshh.org/category/kaiser-permanente He visited Kaiser Permanente on several occasions, and the Government 5 Year Forward View for the NHS borrows much of it's phraseology from Kaiser Permanente. The head of NHS England, appointed by David Cameron, came from the private sector in the US https://www.independent.co.uk/news/long_reads/nhs-private-health-may-corbyn-general-election-a7769936.html

 

The Tories are and always have been committed to privatisation, but it's very hush hush because they know how unpopular that idea is. 

 

I work at a hospital which has recently been amalgamated with 3 other hospitals to save money (the other 3 sites have been closed and sold to developers). Children with life-limiting conditions now have to travel miles for appointments (which are essential as without treatment their already short lives will be shortened even more), and there aren't enough staff to see them - so instead of being seen every 6 months as they should be, they might be seen once per year. Already, their only chance of new treatments and more frequent check ups is to sign up for trials run by US pharma companies for new drugs. That's because the NHS is being starved of resources so that private treatments will seem like the only decent option.

 

Ask me about the role of US pharma companies in the NHS already, I can tell you plenty about that. They've got more than a foothold here, and once the Government caves in and lets them charge whatever they like for drugs then we'll see the true misery and rationing of treatment - only the rich will be able to afford to live.

 

Since I was a child, charges have been introduced for glasses, dental care, and prescriptions. Charges will be extended more and more now, until hardly anything is provided for free and the only choice will be to get private insurance. 

 

There's lots of evidence if you research it, problem is most people just swallow the line that's been sold to them by the papers (which are mostly owned by billionaires). 

 

I try not to get too angry with individuals about this, but I do hope that when those people who voted Tory are having to pay for their treatments and pay for private insurance, they understand they have no right to complain. And maybe consider apologising to the rest of us.

[Whore*of*Mensa]

@Sally you may have only heard one side of the story. Many prominent Jews came out in support of Jeremy Corbyn.You could google Michael Rosen, for a start, or search on Facebook for him - he wrote a long statement on this which was widely shared.

[Cheshire-Cat]

Does anyone actually have anything about how Corbyn was actually supposedly anti-semitic because as much as I've searched I've found nothing. Just papers saying he is with no explanation.

[natsume]

Trump also says he is the savior of Israel and that Democrats in the US hate all jews and they should be afraid. That is a very stale conservative tactic.

 

If Fox News/The Sun say baselessly that liberals hate and threaten Jews then it must be so?

[iff]

9 hours ago, funky bananawarp said:

No. Antisemitism has always been very present in all of Europe until this day. In the UK we're talking about 5-30% of the population with antisemitic attitudes (according to the Institute for Jewish Policy Research https://cst.org.uk/public/data/file/7/4/JPR.2017.Antisemitism in contemporary Great Britain.pdf).

Wikipedia has this handy list

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_the_UK_Conservative_Party

 

One of the new tories elected, Sally-Ann Hart for example has a [what is the opposite of impressive] record in that she has participated in islamophobic, anti-semitic, Ableist (making very derogatory remarks about those with an intellectual disability) and transphobic in the recent past

https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2019/dec/11/tories-open-second-investigation-sally-ann-hart-hastings-candidate?__twitter_impression=true

 

Johnson as editor of spectator published some some antisemitic pieces by a writer

[Still]

Weird how politicians like Corbyn and Sanders who represent a threat to neoliberal hegemony keep getting baselessly smeared by the media.

 

Probably a total coincidence, though 🙄

[Lonemathsytoothbrushthief]

9 hours ago, Moonman said:

I think people are scared of the Tory’s because that’s the narrative that the left-leaning parties and their supporters want you to buy. They want you to be terrified so you’ll vote for them instead. I don’t buy this idea that BoJo is racist or homophobic. He’s said some stuff, sure he has, but he was Mayor of London for crying out loud. He, at one point, represented the most culturally-diverse area in the UK and was re-elected as Mayor after his first stint. He has women and asian minorities in prominent positions in his cabinet too. And let’s not forget it was the Conservative party that put forward the bill to legalise same-sex marriage in the United Kingdom in 2013 I believe.

 

I swear that people think he’s a far-right politician because he wants us to Leave and wants us to honour the result of the referendum. I don’t see anything else in his politics, just that. 

 

To boot, is there a shred of credible evidence that the NHS is going to be sold or privatised? What evidence do we have but fearmongering? Supposedly, stuff of this nature was spoken about in UK-US trade talks but of course it was, because healthcare is private in the US and pharma is big business there. It’s obviously going to be talked about because it’s the elephant in the living room. 

 

I’m not saying people should support the Tory’s but I don’t think people have to worry as much as other people would like you to believe.

He's said some things, antagonised some countries, wants to make deals with other, fascist ones, wants to chuck out EU migrants and I suspect muslims, deport british caribbeans, fuck up Ireland, OH  and the thing I'm focused on now which is criminalise trespass to a degree that it threatens to remove the homes of the roma and travellers. But SURE he's not racist! He doesn't think he is, and neither do you, so that makes it true!

[Skycaptain]

I don't believe Corbout is anti-semitic, just an ultra-Marxist who wants to turn Britain into a communist backwater, as opposed to BJ who wants to turn us into a capitalist backwater, and we Brits are really AUDIstadt, so we're only worried about having the right SUV to drop the rugrats off at the childminders 

[Still]

1 minute ago, Sleighcaptain said:

opposed to BJ who wants to turn us into a capitalist backwater

Umm, I have some bad news regarding that.

[natsume]

If you want a simplification, that has no impact on the safety of British Jews.

[natsume]

I like moonman, he's like having The Sun as a member and giving us their hot takes.

 

Thank God 🙏 Boris will save the Jews from Corbyn.

[Lonemathsytoothbrushthief]

7 minutes ago, natsume said:

I like moonman, he's like having The Sun as a member and giving us their hot takes.

 

Thank God 🙏 Boris will save the Jews from Corbyn.

Damnit I like YOU! You roasted him for me 😢 ❤️

[Tanwen]

 For heavens' sake - Corbyn and Momentum LOST- suck it up - I am glad we will not be returning to the bad old days of left wing Labbour policies - with rampant inflation and crippling interest rates. They wanted a 'peoples' vote' on Brexit, they got it and not the response they expected!  Tory percentage of the vote increased in areas that voted 'Leave' in the referendum. But Momentum still can't accept the majority verdict and are initiating protest marches. Talk about ignoring the will of the people. They clearly  want another re-run.

Some of Momentum's ideas included reducing the working week to 4 days (with no loss of pay) - said industry could absorb the costs. They wanted to extend the 'Right to Buy' to private tenants -- they would be entitled to the same discount as previous council tenants. They wanted to bring back into public ownership the railways, utilities and parts of BT - again without specifiying how they were going to fund it - maybe they were hoping they'd just be 'given up without cost'. Cloud cuckoo land!!
Is the NHS underfunded - undoubtedly but if the public would stop abusing it then it would help. People going to their GPs for items that can be bought over the counter - yes, I know some people can't afford to do it - which is why those of us who can SHOULD. Stop going to A&E for trivial matters the name is clue what it's there for - Accident and Emergency

 

[Lonemathsytoothbrushthief]

20 minutes ago, Moonman said:

I respect that you believe that and I'm not going to argue with you or challenge you. I'd just love to be pointed to some sources that back it up rather than, as we always seem to do during election season, take these sexy sensationalist statements at face value. 

Some days I respond to people's claims that the 2008 recession was because of the UK labour party with 4 different sources quoting numerous economists explaining why this is wrong and get ghosted, some days I can't be assed to explain something as blindingly obvious as that the man who wants to take the homes from an entire people is racist and get told my words aren't trustworthy without sources.

[Lonemathsytoothbrushthief]

4 minutes ago, Tanwen said:

 For heavens' sake - Corbyn and Momentum LOST- suck it up - I am glad we will not be returning to the bad old days of left wing Labbour policies - with rampant inflation and crippling interest rates. They wanted a 'peoples' vote' on Brexit, they got it and not the response they expected!  Tory percentage of the vote increased in areas that voted 'Leave' in the referendum. But Momentum still can't accept the majority verdict and are initiating protest marches. Talk about ignoring the will of the people. They clearly  want another re-run.

Some of Momentum's ideas included reducing the working week to 4 days (with no loss of pay) - said industry could absorb the costs. They wanted to extend the 'Right to Buy' to private tenants -- they would be entitled to the same discount as previous council tenants. They wanted to bring back into public ownership the railways, utilities and parts of BT - again without specifiying how they were going to fund it - maybe they were hoping they'd just be 'given up without cost'. Cloud cuckoo land!!
Is the NHS underfunded - undoubtedly but if the public would stop abusing it then it would help. People going to their GPs for items that can be bought over the counter - yes, I know some people can't afford to do it - which is why those of us who can SHOULD. Stop going to A&E for trivial matters the name is clue what it's there for - Accident and Emergency

 

British election debate times 2024:

"Should the government spend money on stuff?"

"No! Never spend money! Only cuts!!!"

I'm not even exaggerating that is paraphrased your words, but loses zero content in the paraphrasing. Precisely zero. You think STATES DON'T SPEND MONEY. Go away please.

[michaeld]

23 minutes ago, Tanwen said:

 They wanted a 'peoples' vote' on Brexit, they got it and not the response they expected!  Tory percentage of the vote increased in areas that voted 'Leave' in the referendum.

No we didn't get one, and for better or worse we're not going to get one now. The actual vote-share percentage has more support for parties favouring a second referendum (or cancelling Brexit altogether) than it does for the pro-Brexit parties. I realise this practically doesn't mean anything in a first past the post system. But if that vote had been a referendum on having another referendum 😛 then another referendum might have won.

 

I actually have no idea who would win if the UK voted on Brexit again. The polls show an increased support for Remain but the polls are really unreliable as the 2016 result showed. I have a hunch Brexit might well win again, but we'll never know now.

 

And of course the Tory percentage increased in areas that voted leave. I wouldn't have expected anything else.

 

I still think Labour were in an impossible position over Brexit. They lost voters on both sides of the issue. That's because the country is completely polarized still, and the division cuts right through the Labour party base, more so than any other party.

[michaeld]

15 minutes ago, Moonman said:

I personally believe Labour would have fared much better on a Leave policy. I base that on their results in the 2017 General Election and the number of voters they have lost since.

It's very hard to say. If they had a leave policy, they would have been called "Tory sell-outs", "facilitators of a Tory Brexit" and people would have wondered what the difference is between the parties on the burning issue of the day. I think they may well have kept most of their "heartlands" seats, but their youth and urban votes would have plummeted. Would that be better than what actually happened (from their point of view)? Quite possibly, but not obviously so.

 

They also did badly in the European elections, which was before they had their "second referendum" policy, and came under huge pressure after that to swing towards remain. In hindsight what they did in 2017 - trying to avoid the issue as much as possible and talk about other things - was very clever, and basically the only way they could do well. However it probably wasn't feasible this time around.

[natsume]

The demographic that Trump mobilized in 2016 came out just as strong for his spiritual son in the UK.

He won white voters, but dominated in 65+, while only maintaining a small victory in 55+. Yes, since people are in here talking about how brexit is so popular, they should look at the polling which shows that people under 55 do not want Brexit. Ordinarily, 65+ benefit most from short-sighted conservative policies. But rebuilding the UK trade deals will be a very slow, years long process that will hurt the people who wanted Brexit the most (financially, anyway... they'll still punish the immigrants as they desired, and maybe that was more important to them anyway).

[Siimo van der fietspad]

12 minutes ago, michaeld said:

It's very hard to say. If they had a leave policy, they would have been called "Tory sell-outs", "facilitators of a Tory Brexit" and people would have wondered what the difference is between the parties on the burning issue of the day. I think they may well have kept most of their "heartlands" seats, but their youth and urban votes would have plummeted. Would that be better than what actually happened (from their point of view)? Quite possibly, but not obviously so.

 

They also did badly in the European elections, which was before they had their "second referendum" policy, and came under huge pressure after that to swing towards remain. In hindsight what they did in 2017 - trying to avoid the issue as much as possible and talk about other things - was very clever, and basically the only way they could do well. However it probably wasn't feasible this time around.

Labour are smashed, but I think they might have equally saved themselves from an even worse destruction. For a start they were essentially promising another round of negotiations - the electorate would not vote to replay the impasse of the last two years again. Campaigning for either Leave or Remain splits their vote and they lose the same seats as Thursday. Defeated now, they at least avoid having any blame to answer for when living and economic conditions inevitably deteriorate. Imagine they won with a minority government and somehow had to negotiate a coalition or confidence and supply with two parties who will accept nothing less than remain/revoke: this leads to the same run of defeats and unacceptable deals in the HoC coupled with infighting that drives the party apart. Imagine somehow a soft leave deal is agreed, probably involving staying in a customs union, and then is defeated in a second public referendum, which is likely on the basis of this week given that it is the worst of all compromises for everybody.

 

In a nutshell, Labour were screwed sometime the early hours of June 23rd 2016 and they've had a lot of luck to put off this moment so long.