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Dreamsexual
On ‎2‎/‎6‎/‎2019 at 11:10 PM, iff said:

think The special place in hel

.

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Skycaptain

Not as bad as a government and small majority of population who are hell bent on following a path that's making it worse for the majority 

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Dreamsexual
On ‎2‎/‎7‎/‎2019 at 6:46 AM, Skycaptain said:

Not as bad as a government and small majority of population who are hell bent on following a path that's making it worse for the majority 

 

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Telecaster68

Oh FFS haven't you heard the expression before? It's just a way of expressing frustration, and when the Brexiteers are calling judges enemies of the people, consciously aping Nazi propaganda, I don't think they can complain much. 

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Skycaptain

Basically brexiteers have got the hump because he spoke the truth. 

 

Maybe, just maybe, they should realise that Brexit can also mean that they want to leave Britain.....

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Dreamsexual
On ‎2‎/‎7‎/‎2019 at 8:30 AM, Telecaster68 said:

Oh FFS haven't you heard the expression before?

 

 

 

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Telecaster68
16 minutes ago, Dreamsexual said:

It's an expression that signifies that one wishes a special degree of torturous pain upon a group of people.  It's often used in connection to pedophiles, for example.  It's not suitable language for this person, at this time, in this context.  It shows a rather nasty streak in someone who should be willing to negotiate in good faith - but obviously isn't.  It is a 'bad thing'.

I think you're over reacting. 

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Guest
18 minutes ago, Dreamsexual said:

Yes.  It's an expression that signifies that one wishes a special degree of torturous pain upon a group of people.  It's often used in connection to pedophiles, for example.  It's not suitable language for this person, at this time, in this context.  It shows a rather nasty streak in someone who should be willing to negotiate in good faith - but obviously isn't.  It is a 'bad thing'.

Completely agreed.

 

(Though it surprises me that a free speech advocate like yourself sees it that way. 😜)

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Dreamsexual
On ‎2‎/‎7‎/‎2019 at 9:42 AM, Telecaster68 said:

I think you're over reacting. 

 

 

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Guest
Just now, Dreamsexual said:

Really?  Why?  I don't see how my advocacy of a lack of legal/violent sanction against words should inure speakers against social consequence, rebuttal or a moral judgement that they are 'wrong'?  I wouldn't ban the publication of Mein Kampf, but I will still say it's a horrid book and that Nazis are wrong, for example.

Fair enough (borrowing your catchphrase, haha :)).

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Blitzentan
3 hours ago, Skycaptain said:

Not as bad as a government and small majority of population who are hell bent on following a path that's making it worse for the majority 

A small majority is still a majority.  Had the vote gone the other way, regardless of how small the majority, the remain camp would have said 'Majority rules, accept it, get over it and shut up'

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Blitzentan
16 hours ago, iff said:

It was in none of the European treaties we have already voted on  so such would require another treaty as such would be a loss of competencies for countries.

 

The Irish constitution specifies about neutrality so if we give up the neutrality, it would have to be by referendum and that referendum would certainly not pass. I don't believe in certainty when voting but a no vote there is as close to a certainty as possible. We are also not the only neutral country in Europe.

 

It really depends on the detail of any proposal rather than a headline quote.

Perhaps it's a little optimistic to assume the EU will honour such agreements. A European Army is at least an intent, even assuming the Irish would be able to 'ring fence' their troops, a proportion of the budget would be allocated to the support of any such army and that would be far more difficult to do (again assuming other member states would agree to it).

Not the only neural country - isn't Sweden a member too? Can't count Switzerland as it isn't a member though it has many of the privileges

 

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iff
3 hours ago, Frankentan said:

A small majority is still a majority.  Had the vote gone the other way, regardless of how small the majority, the remain camp would have said 'Majority rules, accept it, get over it and shut up'

Farage said when BBC referendum night coverage began when he was projecting remain would win, that it wasn't the end, that the issue wasn't final when he thought remain would prevail in June 2016

 

2 hours ago, Frankentan said:

Perhaps it's a little optimistic to assume the EU will honour such agreements. A European Army is at least an intent, even assuming the Irish would be able to 'ring fence' their troops, a proportion of the budget would be allocated to the support of any such army and that would be far more difficult to do (again assuming other member states would agree to it).

Not the only neural country - isn't Sweden a member too? Can't count Switzerland as it isn't a member though it has many of the privileges

 

I need to see actual proposals before making up my mind rather than some soundbites as any thing else is just guesswork.

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Telecaster68
3 hours ago, iff said:

Farage said when BBC referendum night coverage began when he was projecting remain would win, that it wasn't the end, that the issue wasn't final when he thought remain would prevail in June 2016

The entire referendum happened because the Leave side refused to accept a previous referendum. For 43 years.

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Dreamsexual

.

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timewarp

The trouble with accepting the referendum result is that the whole thing was ill-prepared. As is increasingly evident, the campaigns bent the rules. There was no preparation for the possibility of a leave win, which is clearly disrespectful towards leave voters, and which is also a big part of the current problems (and also the thing that Tusk was complaining about, although he didn't mention the special place in hell for David Cameron, which is a big shame). The referendum bill could have demanded or more decisive majority too.

 

Next mistake was to trigger article 50 before it was clear what the plan should be. That would have been the time for another referendum - this time asking the electorate how Brexit should be implemented. Leave the customs union? Leave the single market? Leave Euratom? Leave Erasmus? Leave ESA? Leave Galileo? Leave the ECMWF? etc etc etc.

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Guest Jetsun Milarepa

....and now it seems Italy has offended France and diplomats have been called back to Paris in the huff.

Could we be seeing discontent spreading in the european superstate? 

Surely not, just as we are about to choose our song for the Eurovision song contest! 😜

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Homer

I just got into James O'Brien and his debates with Brexiteers. It's shocking (and hilarious) how their argumets crumble if poked just a tiny little bit.

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ben8884
7 hours ago, Telecaster68 said:

The entire referendum happened because the Leave side refused to accept a previous referendum. For 43 years.

This. Totally, utterly, this. Can someone please just, I dunno find a way to like broadcast this to UKIP and Farage? 

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Blaiddmelyn

I'm in two minds as to whether i think Tusk was frustrated or calculating when he made his Hell comment. Since it will spread discord and increase the likelihood of an A50 cancellation but...

 

In any event, as someone said, I don't think it's a fair comment to make about the Brexiteers who genuinely think Brexit is for the best. People like Cameron and Johnson who got us into this mess for their own ends without thinking about what would happen if we voted to leave however, I have mainly contempt for.

 

(To be clear, by mess, I mean the sheer lack of thinking pre vote about how Brexit would be effected...)

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Dreamsexual
On ‎2‎/‎8‎/‎2019 at 12:28 AM, Homer said:

I just got into James O'Brien and his debates with Brexiteers. It's shocking (and hilarious) how their argumets crumble if poked just a tiny little bit.

 

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Blitzentan

Junker is SUPPOSED to be the negotiator, for him to come out with a puerile remark like that and go sniggering off the stage is not the speech or actions to be expected from someone in his position, and may have the opposite reaction to that intended ( though I have no doubt it was intended as an insult)
What concerns me is, should the leave decision be revoked and Britain asks to remain, what would be the penalty? How much of our rebate would we be allowed to retain? Any at all? Would we be forced to adopt the Euro? Some member states would love to be able to float their currency - makes imports more expensive but exports more competitive  Because there WILL be consequences to ensure no other member state has the audacity to question the great Brussels organisation.
 

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Telecaster68
58 minutes ago, Frankentan said:

Junker is SUPPOSED to be the negotiator, for him to come out with a puerile remark like that and go sniggering off the stage is not the speech or actions to be expected from someone in his position, and may have the opposite reaction to that intended ( though I have no doubt it was intended as an insult)
What concerns me is, should the leave decision be revoked and Britain asks to remain, what would be the penalty? How much of our rebate would we be allowed to retain? Any at all? Would we be forced to adopt the Euro? Some member states would love to be able to float their currency - makes imports more expensive but exports more competitive  Because there WILL be consequences to ensure no other member state has the audacity to question the great Brussels organisation.
 

I seem to recall the view earlier on was that if we changed our mind we'd be starting from zero when it came to the rebate. And given the skillz of our negotiating team, probably stay at zero.

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Scott1989
On 1/18/2019 at 11:38 PM, OptimisticPessimist said:

I still don't understand Brexit. 

Somehow still relevant nearly 3 years later, just with minor changes:

On 2/6/2019 at 11:10 PM, iff said:

I think The special place in hell for those in political positionswho advocated and promoted brexit without a plan

(note I'm not a fan of the SNP but gotta love the burn)

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timewarp
2 hours ago, Frankentan said:

How much of our rebate would we be allowed to retain? Any at all?

The rebate is dead as a dodo. Quite frankly nobody in the rest of Europe would tolerate it to come back - it is simply an unfair advantage the UK used to have. The astonishing thing is that Margaret Thatcher managed to negotiate it in the first place.

 

It's also worth mentioning that the 350 million nonsense on the red buses conveniently ignored the rebate.

 

2 hours ago, Frankentan said:

Junker is SUPPOSED to be the negotiator, for him to come out with a puerile remark like that and go sniggering off the stage is not the speech or actions to be expected from someone in his position,

What is it that Juncker has done? The only comment in recent times that was provocative came from Donald Tusk. The EU negotiator is and has always been Michel Barnier.

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Telecaster68
1 minute ago, timewarp said:

It's also worth mentioning that the 350 million nonsense on the red buses conveniently ignored the rebate.

And maths in general.

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Skycaptain

Junker was only saying that those who had no plans should rot in hell. He was not saying Brexiters as a whole should rot. 

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Dreamsexual
On ‎2‎/‎8‎/‎2019 at 8:49 PM, Skycaptain said:

Junker was only saying that those who had no plans should rot in hell. He was not saying Brexiters as a whole should rot. 

 

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timewarp

But did Juncker also say anything like that? That would be new to me. To my knowledge it was only Tusk.

 

(Juncker did comment though that the only hell he's ever experienced is the European commission.)

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Telecaster68

Tut. You and your insistence on actual facts. Typical remainer. 

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