Jump to content
ben8884

British political discussion thread

Recommended Posts

Dreamsexual
On 4 February 2019 at 12:08 PM, timewarp said:

it might as well be ignorance.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Blitzentan
On 1/19/2019 at 2:09 PM, Ortac said:

And neither do many of the people who voted for it, which makes it all the more appalling that it is happening.

Why assume that? People I've spoken to know exactly why they voted as they did. Had the Govt of the time been honest about the long term aims of the EEC (as it was then) ie it was NOT a trading organisation but that closer political union was the intent - then there's a good chance we would never have joined in the first place and all this would be academic.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Dreamsexual
On 4 February 2019 at 4:22 PM, Frankentan said:

Why assume that? People I've spoken to know exactly why they voted as they did.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ben8884
48 minutes ago, Frankentan said:

Why assume that? People I've spoken to know exactly why they voted as they did. Had the Govt of the time been honest about the long term aims of the EEC (as it was then) ie it was NOT a trading organisation but that closer political union was the intent - then there's a good chance we would never have joined in the first place and all this would be academic.

Many (including Farage) have admitted to deception by the campaign so anyone voting for money to fund the NHS did not in fact know what they were voting for. Some people though absolutely did.

In terms of lying in the first place-I agree, Heath was a staunched European and I know people who voted in favour because they thought it was just going to be an economic union which is why the Labour government gave voters a second referendum in the 1970s. They got a referendum then, we should get one now. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
timewarp
1 hour ago, Frankentan said:

Had the Govt of the time been honest about the long term aims of the EEC (as it was then) ie it was NOT a trading organisation but that closer political union was the intent - then there's a good chance we would never have joined in the first place and all this would be academic.

This is one of the core problems. There's never been an understanding in this country about what the EU (or its predecessors) actually is. It has always been a political project, originally one that was supposed to tie Germany to France in order to maintain peace for good. You need to understand the French-German relations post WWII in order to understand the EU, and of course the UK has usually not been a country that is particularly interested in what's going on elsewhere.

 

Even now, after so many decades, it's blatantly evident that British politicians are completely clueless about how negotiations with the EU work. They could have talked to Greece, they could have talked to Switzerland, but no, in this country the wheel needs to be reinvented to make sure it's British enough (which is of course the reason why the British car industry went downhill, but that's a different issue).

  • Like 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Kelly

If Brexit does occur, is the breakup of the UK a possibility?

 

CgsSdQaWYAA7Adv.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
8 hours ago, Kelly said:

CgsSdQaWYAA7Adv.jpg

Ireland says "Erm... dude? Hello?"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sally

Could someone briefly explain the Ireland situation?  I can't remember the shorthand phrase that's used for it.  It seems to be all-important -- ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Skycaptain

Sally, the agreement signed during the Blair era which lead to the ceasefire by the IRA, ULA et al had a clause in it to say that the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland shall be an open one, just like crossing between two states in the USA. There's different rules which apply when crossing between EU and non-EU countries, and having an agreement which suits all is proving difficult 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest

Republic of Ireland is part of the EU, and has no plans on exiting.

Northern Ireland, as part of the UK, will/would be part of Brexit.

 

NI & RoI (obviously) share a land border.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sally

Ah.   Well, that's certainly a mess, indeed.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Telecaster68

... and the reason it's so hard is that May is in coalition with the Democratic Unionist Party, the most hard-line of the Protestant parties. They are virulently against anything that makes Northern Ireland different to the rest of the UK - like having an open border with the rest of the EU - so May has no room for manoeuvre there. On the other hand, having a closed border would have a huge economic effect as currently it's about as porous as a US state boundary. There's also a strong political opposition from Irish republicans who want to keep pushing towards a de facto united Ireland. The UK legislature is split along similar lines, so that a compromise in one direction would be beyond the pale for the other side. 

 

The 'back stop' proposal is a way of kicking it down the road, but doesn't solve anything. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Ortac
20 hours ago, Frankentan said:

Why assume that? People I've spoken to know exactly why they voted as they did.

I don't dispute that, in fact I am sure that pretty much everyone who voted had a reason for voting the way that they did; it would have been silly to just flip a coin. What I do question however is whether many of those reasons are sensible, and whether people understand and appreciate the full implications of that decision. Yes, some will, but many won't. Note that I said many, not most or all. I have no doubt that many of the reasons some people had for voting the way they did were based upon incorrect assumptions or biased information. Not everyone has a particularly close interest in business and the economy, and I can't believe that those who don't fully appreciate the seriousness of the situation in the same way as people who do.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Dreamsexual
On 5 February 2019 at 8:32 AM, Ortac said:

What Is do question however is whether many of those reasons are sensible, and whether people understand and appreciate the full implications of that decision.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Telecaster68

But almost all other votes are for elected representatives. The point is to pick one who's pretty much going to vote how you would if you had time to understand the issues.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Dreamsexual
On 5 February 2019 at 11:22 AM, Telecaster68 said:

The point is to pick one who's pretty much going to vote how you would if you had time to understand the issues.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Telecaster68

As Winston Churchill said, democracy is the worst possible form of government, apart from all the others. 

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Blitzentan
3 hours ago, Dreamsexual said:

Edit:

The referendum has raised the issue of the franchise again.  I'm come across multiple remain voters who try to make the case that older people shouldn't vote because they don't have to live with the consequences, for example. It's interesting to think about exactly why we give the vote to the people we do :)

But the older generation was involved in the 1975 referendum - when I was a lot younger ;)  - we didn't say they should be excluded because they  wouldn't be affected as much. One person, one vote.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Dreamsexual
On 5 February 2019 at 3:45 PM, Frankentan said:

we didn't say they should be excluded because they  wouldn't be affected as much.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
timewarp

Personally I would replace all age restrictions by mandatory registration exams to make sure voters have a basic knowledge of what they are voting on. But that might be something for the "controversial opinions" thread.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
iff
12 hours ago, Telecaster68 said:

They are virulently against anything that makes Northern Ireland different to the rest of the UK

With three exceptions

- same sex marriage

- abortion

- bar closing times  (seriously come on, night club time closing in a city on a bank holiday weekend's Sunday at 1am is ridiculous)

 

Then the DUP are thrilled to be different from the rest of the UK.

12 hours ago, Telecaster68 said:

There's also a strong political opposition from Irish republicans who want to keep pushing towards a de facto united Ireland.

I do think sinn fein are secretly (and some not so secretly) very happy at the brexit debacle as they see it as helping them towards their objective of a united ireland.

 

12 hours ago, Mysticus Insanus said:

Republic of Ireland is part of the EU, and has no plans on exiting

A party has been set up called irexit to prosper.

Funnily the party leader both writes for the Irish mail and works for ukip's group in the European parliament.

 

[Sarcasm]Because this has worked so well and been so smooth for Britain, we should leave the EU too

[/sarcasm]

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
22 minutes ago, iff said:

A party has been set up called irexit to prosper.

Funnily the party leader both writes for the Irish mail and works for ukip's group in the European parliament.

 

[Sarcasm]Because this has worked so well and been so smooth for Britain, we should leave the EU too

[/sarcasm]

giphy.gif

 

Goddammit. Those nutjobs are crawling out of the woodworks everywhere. How many votes do they currently have?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
iff
2 minutes ago, Mysticus Insanus said:

giphy.gif

 

Goddammit. Those nutjobs are crawling out of the woodworks everywhere. How many votes do they currently have?

They are talking about standing candidates for the European elections and county council elections in may. It would be their first election

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Telecaster68

Ireland's already had several referenda though, and was made to keep having them till they got the answer right. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
iff
3 hours ago, Telecaster68 said:

Ireland's already had several referenda though, and was made to keep having them till they got the answer right. 

On both occasion, I think we got reassurances from the EU on various matters that had been reasons people voted against the treaty that hadn't been included in the treaty.

 

In the referendums, we had groups canvassing that the treaties would lead to same sex marriage, legalisation of drugs, legalisation of prostituition, abortion, end to our neutrality and conscription so we got reassurances from the EU that Ireland would not be included in these (that weren't in them

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Blitzentan

How would neutrality work when they're proposing a European army?

 

On 2/5/2019 at 4:01 PM, Dreamsexual said:

Sure - unless the 'new franchise system' had been sorted out prior to a vote it shouldn't affect the vote.  But I think the question of education and age and voting rights is being/has been raised a lot by remain voters.

It would be a betrayal of all who'd  fought and died getting the ordinary man (and woman) the right to vote. Most had rudimentary education - if any at all, they were ignorant peasants.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Dreamsexual
On ‎2‎/‎6‎/‎2019 at 5:32 PM, Frankentan said:

It would be a betrayal of all who'd  fought and died getting the ordinary man (and woman) the right to vote

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
iff
47 minutes ago, Frankentan said:

How would neutrality work when they're proposing a European army

It was in none of the European treaties we have already voted on  so such would require another treaty as such would be a loss of competencies for countries.

 

The Irish constitution specifies about neutrality so if we give up the neutrality, it would have to be by referendum and that referendum would certainly not pass. I don't believe in certainty when voting but a no vote there is as close to a certainty as possible. We are also not the only neutral country in Europe.

 

It really depends on the detail of any proposal rather than a headline quote.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
timewarp

Today I had a look at open positions at Dyson in my field of knowledge, which happens to be right at the core of their business. There are currently two openings, one in Singapore, the other in Malaysia. "We'll keep the engineering in the UK"? Could have fooled me.

 

This is what I appreciate about Tim Martin (the Wetherspoon owner for those who don't know him) despite all the annoying pro-Brexit stuff in each of his pubs - at least he's not a bloody hypocrite.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
iff

I think The special place in hell for those in political positionswho advocated and promoted brexit without a plan is that they will be sent every day to negotiate something they didn't want, then at end of everyday with the agreement reached, they will be told by the rest of the people that deal is not what they wanted at all and they need to go back to renegotiate with no results ever.

repeat for eternity

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...