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Sally
1 minute ago, Cheshire-Cat said:

But it would be significantly more informed than the previous referendum. We would actually know what's on offer for one.

Too late for that.  Things move fast, especially when a vote (any vote, anywhere) is concerned.

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Ortac
9 hours ago, Cheshire-Cat said:

I wonder why May is so scared of holding a second referendum. Maybe because she'd see that the last 2 years of her life have been a complete waste of time and money?

I don't know, but I do think that her vision is clouded on this matter and she is stubbornly refusing to "see the bigger picture" (as the Queen has urged). May has said repeatedly that to hold another referendum would be an affront to democracy and disrespectful to those 17.4 million who voted out. If the result of that referendum had been 90% voting to leave, I might possibly agree with her, but as it is, she is 100% wrong. In fact, I would say that she has a duty to hold another referendum and that not to do so would be an affront to democracy. 

 

Brexit is the hugest change that will happen to the UK since World War II, and it will fundamentally affect everyone including future generations who have had no say on it, and probably not for the better. Also, it will be extremely difficult if not impossible to reverse once it has happened. Considering the majority of the previous referendum was so slim and it could just have easily swung the other way, the prime minister has a duty to reach out to confirm her mandate. It is absolutely imperative to ask the electorate "Is this still what you want?" 

 

To say that you have had your chance to vote in 2016 and you can't reconsider is outrageous. That was two and a half years ago, equivalent to halfway through a political term. You wouldn't apply the same reasoning to a general election, would you? Sorry, you voted for a Conservative government, so now we are not holding any more elections for an entire generation, you had your chance to vote, you picked us and you can't change your mind!

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Sally

If another referendum was held and the vote was for "stay", would the EU accept that?   Would it be their choice to do so?  I.e., if before the March deadline (after which the EU would definitely not let the UK back in), is there still time for another referendum?

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Dreamsexual

.

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Skycaptain

@Sally, the EU don't want Britain to leave, partly because we're one of the few net contributors to the EU budget, partly because we import more from the rest of the EU than we export, partly because we are good at wealth redistribution by employing workers from former communist countries who's economies need to develop in far greater numbers than most other nations, whilst investing in those nations by retiring there. 

So they openly state that right until the last second the letter actioning Article 50 can be ripped up 

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timewarp
10 hours ago, Cheshire-Cat said:

But it would be significantly more informed than the previous referendum. We would actually know what's on offer for one.

I disagree. Remember that the withdrawal agreement only defines the terms under which the UK will leave. There is nothing concrete about the future relationship other than the backstop, which is only a temporary fall-back option in case of no agreement. The declaration on the future relations is just 10 pages of blahblahblah.

 

Even if there was a more detailed plan, we wouldn't know how it works out because this is something nobody has ever tried before.

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Telecaster68
6 hours ago, Sally said:

If another referendum was held and the vote was for "stay", would the EU accept that?   Would it be their choice to do so?  I.e., if before the March deadline (after which the EU would definitely not let the UK back in), is there still time for another referendum?

I agree with Sky - the EU would find a way to have us back (or cancel our cancellation, at this stage) as long as they thought it wouldn't just herald another stage of dicking them about.

 

There isn't, just logistically, time for another referendum before the end of March, given it would need an act of parliament, then campaigning time, etc. It's looking fairly likely there'll be an extension beyond the end of March anyway. The EU has said it's there for the asking as long as, again, it's not just more dicking about on the part of the UK. Every negotiation the EU is involved with goes right up to the wire, and deadlines get extended. The deadline is more important for May, as the only way she has of corralling votes in favour of any single course of action is by the factions realising they're running out of time. I don't think it'll work, but it's the only thing that even might shift some pathologically entrenched positions - in essence the arguments are based round ideas about internationalism, Irish independence, and Britain's place as a (post) colonial power. There's not a lot of pragmatism to be had.

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Guest Jetsun Milarepa

Yes, brinkmanship. That seems to be a motivating factor in loads of time driven events (sales teams, University paper deadlines)...it'll probably suddenly and miraculously right itself at 11.59. 

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Telecaster68
1 hour ago, chandrakirti said:

Yes, brinkmanship. That seems to be a motivating factor in loads of time driven events (sales teams, University paper deadlines)...it'll probably suddenly and miraculously right itself at 11.59. 

I guess if you're given a deadline, it's human nature to push right up to it. 

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lapat67
On 1/27/2019 at 9:51 AM, Skycaptain said:

partly because we are good at wealth redistribution

Yes, the UK is a socialist paradise.

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Guest

Sometimes I envy people with more finely tuned sarcasm sensors...

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Kelly

Live coverage of the UK leaving the EU:

 

 

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Telecaster68

That can't be right. At least he keeps travelling in a particular direction.

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Skycaptain
2 hours ago, Telecaster68 said:

That can't be right. At least he keeps travelling in a particular direction.

What you don't see is that there's an open cesspool at the end :P:P

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Dreamsexual

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Telecaster68
12 minutes ago, Skycaptain said:

What you don't see is that there's an open cesspool at the end :P:P

But at least he'll fall in under WTO rules.

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Acing It
On 1/27/2019 at 7:03 AM, Ortac said:

I don't know, but I do think that her vision is clouded on this matter and she is stubbornly refusing to "see the bigger picture" (as the Queen has urged). May has said repeatedly that to hold another referendum would be an affront to democracy and disrespectful to those 17.4 million who voted out. If the result of that referendum had been 90% voting to leave, I might possibly agree with her, but as it is, she is 100% wrong. In fact, I would say that she has a duty to hold another referendum and that not to do so would be an affront to democracy. 

 

Brexit is the hugest change that will happen to the UK since World War II, and it will fundamentally affect everyone including future generations who have had no say on it, and probably not for the better. Also, it will be extremely difficult if not impossible to reverse once it has happened. Considering the majority of the previous referendum was so slim and it could just have easily swung the other way, the prime minister has a duty to reach out to confirm her mandate. It is absolutely imperative to ask the electorate "Is this still what you want?" 

 

To say that you have had your chance to vote in 2016 and you can't reconsider is outrageous. That was two and a half years ago, equivalent to halfway through a political term. You wouldn't apply the same reasoning to a general election, would you? Sorry, you voted for a Conservative government, so now we are not holding any more elections for an entire generation, you had your chance to vote, you picked us and you can't change your mind!

I agree. Adding to that, leaving the EU is far, far more complicated and not as simplistic as a lot of people think/thought. In 2016 many/most/all people didn't exaclty know what they were voting for. I think now everyone has a slightly better idea (not sure if that's true!) many people may reconsider either way, which warrants a new referendum.

Also, there was a very smal majority, debatably even smaller if you take into consideration that a lot of people didn't vote, relatively speaking. this means that just short of half the country is going to lose something they want to keep. Even though in or out is a black and white matter, what this entails isn't and the people who shout about out is out are not very democratic either in that they don't take into account the wishes of just short of half the country. My opinion anyway...

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iff
32 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

But at least he'll fall in under WTO rules.

But does he know what the WTO rules entail.

 

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Telecaster68

Drowning in shit, don't they?

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AmyTSUK

Hi folks,
I been reading through all the posts so far, been some really good comments and opinions.

 

One thing I would like to point out, which I didn't actually know myself till a while ago when a friend who did A level politics told me about it.

 

Unlike most western countries that have a written constitution, the UK doesn't, so any referendums are actually not legally binding.

 

I found this website explains it very well: www.tutor2u.net/politics/reference/uk-constitution

 

My friend said, when we have a referendum, though it is technically worthless and a government could totally ignore it or go opposite to it, it would be political suicide for the party in power to do that, but they could if they wished to as there is no constitution to bind it to a political code of law.

 

So say for example, the EU point blank refuse to budge or even try to make the deal worse to force May's hand, she could come back to parliament and say, it just ain't worth the hassles, we staying in end of story, and as of end of parliament today I resign.

 

Because there has been so many cockups and mistakes and the people are so fed up with brexit, the conservatives would probably still hang onto power, though most likely a general election would be called soon after, and Corbyn is too left wing to ever gain power plus he got no backing from his own party, England has always been a right wing country in the areas that have the biggest impact on the FPTP system. Now if it was a system like Scotland had, with the current state of of how bad May did last election, would be extremely interesting to see how it panned out.

 

So basically put, nothing is set in stone, anything could still happen before the final deadline of brexit.

 

So as my friend always signs off to me: sit back, put your feet up and enjoy the chaos thats to come.

 

90a767baea1b1c241c5a63577480fb6e.jpg

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Guest
9 minutes ago, AmyTSUK said:

So for example, the EU point blank refuse to budge or even try to make the deal worse to force May's hand, she could come back to parliament and say, it just ain't worth the hassles, we staying in end of story, and as of end of parliament today I resign.

I'd call that a double win.

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Skycaptain

@Mysticus Insanus, sadly I can't see that happening. 

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Dreamsexual
On 4 February 2019 at 4:09 AM, AmyTSUK said:

My friend said, when we have a referendum, though it is technically worthless and a government could totally ignore it or go opposite to it,

 

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timewarp
4 hours ago, AmyTSUK said:

a general election would be called soon after, and Corbyn is too left wing to ever gain power

That is under the assumption that any party would still be able to gain an overall majority. Following the development in other countries this is increasingly unlikely and except for the 2015 election even the Tories haven't managed to get a clear majority in recent times. So it's about forming coalitions, like in most of the rest of the world.

 

If you look at the latest projection of the electoral calculus, the Tories would be 39 seats short of a majority, which means it wouldn't even be enough with the DUP. The only politically viable option I could see with these numbers would be a Labour/LibDem/SNP coalition. Tories/SNP and Tories/Labour would have the numbers, but unless there is some serious brainwashing involved I can't see them coming together.

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timewarp

...and while brexiteers are still phantasising about all those ambitious new trade deals, Angela Merkel is visiting Japan with a delegation of German business representatives. As opposed to UK businesses they can rely on the recent free-trade agreement between Japan and the EU, so they will have a lot to talk about with their Japanese counterparts.

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ben8884

well, the EU did say they were done negotiating so I mean Parliament saying she could go back to the table is a wee bit pointless.

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Dreamsexual
On 4 February 2019 at 10:39 AM, ben8884 said:

well, the EU did say they were done negotiating so I mean Parliament saying she could go back to the table is a wee bit pointless.

.

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ben8884

I think its just arrogance to be honest. 

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timewarp

Given that one of the previous Brexit secretaries didn't know that Calais-Dover is a major trade route, it might as well be ignorance.

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Guest Jetsun Milarepa
3 hours ago, timewarp said:

Given that one of the previous Brexit secretaries didn't know that Calais-Dover is a major trade route, it might as well be ignorance.

Well we seem to be living in the age of post education and post truth....

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