Master UK Political Discussion Thread

[iff]

1 hour ago, Midland Tyke said:

Or maybe we should just get on with and leave?

As long as that leaving involves a workable solution to honouring the international agreement you made on good Friday in 1998 to avoid a hard border between UK and ireland

 

A no deal brexit with a soft border between Ireland and the UK does not work.

[Tyke]

1 hour ago, Telecaster68 said:

Because that approach has been working really well so far...

I know. Shockingly too many people have blocked it. There's a David Cameron interview from the campaign circulating with him saying. If we vote leave we'll immediately have to trade on WTO terms. So it was understood then and in the public domain. I accept that the leave campaign was deceitful. But so was 'project fear'. I remember the "Our economy will collapse the day after the referendum if we vote leave". Doesn't seem to have done. 

 

41 minutes ago, iff said:

As long as that leaving involves a workable solution to honouring the international agreement you made on good Friday in 1998 to avoid a hard border between UK and ireland

 

A no deal brexit with a soft border between Ireland and the UK does not work.

This I agree with. Why the EU can't see that it would be significantly punishing one of its members (the Republic) by not allowing an open border there, in line with an International treaty of HUGE political importance, is beyond me. If there was a will, there would be a way. A pre-existing treaty must be pretty rare, so an exception for the Good Friday Agreement won't  set a significant precedent. Would businesses relocate their operation (from other parts of Europe) to gain a competitive advantage that would disappear when (Ok, if) a trade arrangement between the UK and the EU were made? I doubt it.

 

But I can see why they act that way. They want to be as difficult as possible, so that other Leave the EU campaigns in other countries don't gain traction. It's a grubby game.

[iff]

1 hour ago, Midland Tyke said:

This I agree with. Why the EU can't see that it would be significantly punishing one of its members (the Republic) by not allowing an open border there, in line with an International treaty of HUGE political importance, is beyond me. If there was a will, there would be a way. A pre-existing treaty must be pretty rare, so an exception for the Good Friday Agreement won't  set a significant precedent. Would businesses relocate their operation (from other parts of Europe) to gain a competitive advantage that would disappear when (Ok, if) a trade arrangement between the UK and the EU were made? I doubt it.

The EU and Ireland want a soft border

 

It is the DUP and no deal tories that don't. For the DUP, a hard border between Ireland and northern Ireland for them, crystallises a division between the two countries by putting border where the people of that region in northern Ireland voted against a border and divide.

 

A part of me wonders if some in Vote Leave campaign's didn't think Ireland was part of the UK. For example, the as in this https://m.facebook.com/watch/?v=1466482533460910&_rdr at the start highlights  Dublin and the coast of ireland.

 

You also had Derek Davis on ITV show talking about "internal border" in the UK between northern Ireland and "southern ireland" in July 2016 when talking about the Irish border. All this makes me wonder if vote leave or Derek Davis don't respect Irish sovereignty and independence.

 

In john simpson's autobiography, he said the BBC when he was in Dublin, the BBC did not feel Dublin was "demonstrably foreign capital" and I feel many in the Tories and vote leave still feel this way.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/dublin-not-a-demonstrably-foreign-capital-bbc-told-correspondent-1.2819357?mode=amp&fbclid=IwAR1_8RUssNRp8Va3L_8FNq13m21KmotlpuMGenyRY4iqwQxgkH39OyVpaFE

[Skycaptain]

10 hours ago, Midland Tyke said:

Or maybe we should just get on with and leave?

Or just cancel it and stay as we were 

[Tyke]

15 hours ago, Telecaster68 said:

all of Turkey would move here,

All? Wow. That would be a lot. Did that really get said?

 

I think maybe you are exaggerating somewhat

[iff]

1 hour ago, Midland Tyke said:

All? Wow. That would be a lot. Did that really get said?

 

I think maybe you are exaggerating somewhat

it was claimed by garage and Johnson that 77 million Turkish people would. I don't know what the population of turkey was in 2016 but google says it is now 79 million.

 

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/661387/Migrant-crisis-Nigel-Farage-Turkey-EU-visa-free-travel

 

And here telegraph use 75 million

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/02/turkey-expected-to-get-eu-travel-even-if-key-conditions-not-met/

 

BBC articles uses inaccuracy in heading

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-europe-36199701/eu-commission-to-back-visa-free-travel-for-turks-in-schengen

 

And a Tory mp writing in the telegraph

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/17/a-vote-for-remain-is-a-vote-for-mass-immigration-from-turkey/

 

[Skycaptain]

Given that half of Britain has moved to Provence and Bulgaria , its not surprising that others think we have a lot of empty space to fill 

[Tyke]

39 minutes ago, Skycaptain said:

Given that half of Britain has moved to Provence and Bulgaria , its not surprising that others think we have a lot of empty space to fill 

Bulgaria? Wow, I am behind the times. Costa del Brits abroad I knew about. And bits of France, too. But not Bulgaria.

 

2 hours ago, iff said:

it was claimed by garage and Johnson that 77 million Turkish people would. I don't know what the population of turkey was in 2016 but google says it is now 79 million.

 

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/661387/Migrant-crisis-Nigel-Farage-Turkey-EU-visa-free-travel

 

And here telegraph use 75 million

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/02/turkey-expected-to-get-eu-travel-even-if-key-conditions-not-met/

 

BBC articles uses inaccuracy in heading

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-europe-36199701/eu-commission-to-back-visa-free-travel-for-turks-in-schengen

 

And a Tory mp writing in the telegraph

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/17/a-vote-for-remain-is-a-vote-for-mass-immigration-from-turkey/

 

Crazy. Even though the quote is that it would give them the right to come here, not that they all would come. It's typical politico hyberbole. It almost seems like no-one is interested in facts anymore, just persuading people with rhetoric. That's not aimed at you or anyone else here, by the way. It's public figures doing it that annoy me.

[timewarp]

54 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

It's not just the numbers though - it assumes Turkey would be joining the EU soon. Turkey is never going to join the EU while it's locking up  journalists and sentencing people to death, amongst other things, and the most recent elections show there's not much chance of Turkey changing its ways any time soon.

And this is why I believe the remain campaign lost the referendum the very moment when David Cameron was asked in BBC Question Time whether he would veto Turkey entering the EU and he sidestepped the question. You've given a perfectly valid answer to it, whereas David Cameron didn't have the guts and/or insight to give his domestic interests priority over diplomacy.

[timewarp]

It seems British politics has more or less imploded. Not much happening recently. I read Number 10 has given Tory MPs orders to shut up until the local elections are over, that might explain it...

[ben8884]

Not sure what is happening with Labour but Corbyn seems to think that his "we might back a referendum maybe if we can't have an election" strategy is something new, not more Labour holding the referendum hostage for his personal gain. Labour should put Watson in charge. 

Looks like the Tories are in for a thumping this month as are possibly UKIP. In my area (East Midlands) there are 2 UKIP, 2 Tories and 1 Labour MEP so it will be interesting to see who holds and who gets voted out. 

[Skycaptain]

It's from the Daily Express, so don't read too much into this 

 

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1121089/brexit-news-latest-theresa-may-eu-negotiation-withdrawal-agreement-bill-vote-blocked

[timewarp]

Well, here we go. Exciting things happen after all. Gavin Williamson just got sacked for leaking information (about Huawei) from the National Security Council.

[Cheshire-Cat]

Has anyone actually had poll cards yet?

[Skycaptain]

@Cheshire-Cat, the local election one came on Monday, so we're expecting ones for the European elections a week after polls close, because we've twice asked for a delay  as we can't decide on the how to run the poll

[iff]

Are we yet sure whether they are voting in the European elections in the UK yet? It is 3 weeks to the election, people don't know whether the election they are canvassing for will actually happen so it puts it all in doubt. This plays to the hand of brexit party/ukip 

 

Honestly I worry the unsuredness of it all will hand a victory to the policy less Brexit Party "we'll release our manifesto after the elections"

[Cheshire-Cat]

I believe we have to hold elections with the extended Brexit deadline.

[Tyke]

I think that's right. They will only be cancelled if we sign a withdrawal agreement before then.

[Blaiddmelyn]

I have a European Parliament poll card so I'm working on the assumption that we are taking part.

 

Edit: So in answer to the query as to whether anyone has Euro poll cards - yep, I do.

[ben8884]

Looks like voters are rejecting both Labour and the Tories

[Skycaptain]

Interesting. UKIP are getting clattered as well. The biggest gainers are Libdems - who are remainders, Greens and independent candidates 

[ben8884]

Did Farage's party run?

[Skycaptain]

If they did, they haven't made any impression 

[ben8884]

I will have to check with my parents if we have. Interestingly enough I think this is the first EU or General Election that the BNP are not running in my area. It makes me glad. 

[Skycaptain]

The Conservatives and UKIP are getting absolutely slaughtered. Labour are doing better than they deserve, they've won two seats in Tunbridge Wells FFS. 

 

The total fragmentation can be shown by the strength of independents, they've even taken control of one council, which I don't recall happening before 

[Cheshire-Cat]

Our local council has been majority independents for a while.

[Nick2]

Will this Brexit nightmare ever be resolved over there?  You know Putin has to be laughing.

[iff]

49 minutes ago, Skycaptain said:

The Conservatives and UKIP are getting absolutely slaughtered. Labour are doing better than they deserve, they've won two seats in Tunbridge Wells FFS. 

 

And yet Theresa may thinks this means "just get on and deliver Brexit" when the biggest winners have been strong remainders of greens and lib dems

 

though if Tories won big, Theresa may would probably think it meant "just get on and deliver Brexit"

[Skycaptain]

If someone decapitated her she'd think "just carry on"

 

If the late Peter Rogers was to create "Carry on Politics" with Sid James, Bernard Bresslaw, Barbara Windsor, Hatty Jacques, June Winfield, and the rest of the crew, using the last two years it would be dismissed as too unrealistic 

[ben8884]

not sure how I am gonna vote in the EU elections. I am naturally inclined for the Greens and I think they are the best party however, my Dad has pointed out that the Greens have no chance in the East Midlands and that voting Green might help the Brexit Party. So I may vote Lib Dem or even Labour to stop them.